O5S PF groups doing the solo-tank strategy

What is with this obsession PF groups have with doing the solo tank strategy in O5S despite having two tanks?

Every PF group, despite having 2 tanks and the ability to tank swap, wants to place one tank marker in the closest corner and endure huge damage to the party, risking deaths and adding healer pressure.

Even if your healers are experienced at the fight and capable of managing the marker damage, all you are gaining is some 10 seconds tank up time. A tank does less than a quarter of the damage of (good) 4 damage dealers, meaning all you are saving is 2 to 4 seconds on the enrage timer. Furthermore, a tank swap allows the tanks to take one doom-strike each per phase, allowing for stacking of cooldowns against them.

When you run a solo-tank group for O5S, it is mandatory that the tank stays close to the boss, otherwise the connectivity & doom-strike combo kills you without HG/LD. This is the only time it is appropriate for the tank to place the marker in the close corner, since he has to stay close to the boss to survive.

People have become so obsessed that this is the "normal" way to do things that even healers have started placing their markers in the close corner, giving the reason that this is always how things are done.

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Originally Posted by Rathael

A tank does less than a quarter of the damage of (good) 4 damage dealers

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Do you mean tank does less dmg than 1/4 of sum of 4 DPS (which is equal to tank does less dmg than DPS) or tank does less dmg than 1/4 of a single DPS?

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Originally Posted by ImDingDing

Do you mean tank does less dmg than 1/4 of sum of 4 DPS (which is equal to tank does less dmg than DPS) or tank does less dmg than 1/4 of a single DPS?

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For normal shitty PF groups, both is correct.

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Originally Posted by ImDingDing

Do you mean tank does less dmg than 1/4 of sum of 4 DPS (which is equal to tank does less dmg than DPS) or tank does less dmg than 1/4 of a single DPS?

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Should reasonably be less than 1/4th of the sum of 4 DPS, assuming the DPS are worth their salt. I know a lot of them aren't... but if the issue is that the tank is doing more DPS than the DPS, then tank up-time is definitely not the issue that is causing the group being unable to beat the enrage timer. If the DPS are doing their job, 10 to 15 seconds tank uptime should definitely not matter.

the issue is not running into enrage because of those few gcds the tank would lose. the thing is just losing dps for no reason, since if you do it right(the tank on 1 side, pt on the other, healer on the back), and have shield(succor,aspected helios) you dont take nearly enough dmg to die. and speaking of uptimes, the worse this would cause is 1 extra healing gcd for at least 2 the tank would lose, therefore a dps loss since the tanks losing more than the healer. also you can tank swap and still stay in front with the marker for better cd uptime on the busters

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Originally Posted by NotADps

the issue is not running into enrage because of those few gcds the tank would lose. the thing is just losing dps for no reason, since if you do it right(the tank on 1 side, pt on the other, healer on the back), and have shield(succor,aspected helios) you dont take nearly enough dmg to die.

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Losing dps literally doesnt matter as long as you don't hit the enrage, the damage they lose absolutely will not make a difference, all it does is it adds healing pressure and potential wipes. It's irritating that because tanks cant be bothered to swap the healer has to make up for it, just do the mechanics as they are meant to be done. The extra time and mp spent to aoe heal the huge damage is not negligible, what is negligible is the few tank cgd's they lose.

I’ve yet to be in a group who says they want to do warrior strategy and then are actually able to do it. Usually it fails the first time and they do normal after. :P

I’ve also seen groups asking to send tanks to the back and then expecting them to survive the bomb and doom strike, so when I get groups like that I shirk. :)

Most of the time groups just struggle with dps and make stupid mistakes on the mechanics and it seems a rarity to even beat it, even in clear “you must know what you’re doing, fail and be kicked” groups which are set at a high level requirement. :P

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Originally Posted by Rathael

Should reasonably be less than 1/4th of the sum of 4 DPS, assuming the DPS are worth their salt. I know a lot of them aren't... but if the issue is that the tank is doing more DPS than the DPS, then tank up-time is definitely not the issue that is causing the group being unable to beat the enrage timer. If the DPS are doing their job, 10 to 15 seconds tank uptime should definitely not matter.

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I think the question was more "Why did you word it so weird?" Instead of "Less than 1/4 of 4 dps" you could have said "Less than a dps" and been far more succinct in your message.

As far as the damage it's not something a gcd or two of healing can't recover and tank dps is worth more per gcd than healer dps.

Some people like optimizing like that. Advertise your pf to specifically avoid it if you don't wanna run like that.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Losing dps literally doesnt matter as long as you don't hit the enrage, the damage they lose absolutely will not make a difference, all it does is it adds healing pressure and potential wipes. It's irritating that because tanks cant be bothered to swap the healer has to make up for it, just do the mechanics as they are meant to be done. The extra time and mp spent to aoe heal the huge damage is not negligible, what is negligible is the few tank cgd's they lose.

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The added "healing pressure" is insignificant unless your group doesn't know what they're doing. And if they don't know what they're doing, losing dps probably matters even more.

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Originally Posted by Rathael

If the DPS are doing their job, 10 to 15 seconds tank uptime should definitely not matter.

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If everyone is doing their job, there's no reason not to keep that uptime.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Losing dps literally doesnt matter as long as you don't hit the enrage, the damage they lose absolutely will not make a difference, all it does is it adds healing pressure and potential wipes. It's irritating that because tanks cant be bothered to swap the healer has to make up for it, just do the mechanics as they are meant to be done. The extra time and mp spent to aoe heal the huge damage is not negligible, what is negligible is the few tank cgd's they lose.

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All a healer has to do to protect the party from the additional damage they’ll take from having one proximity AOE up front is to shield the party. Everyone else except the marked healer just stands in the corner opposite from the marked tank to reduce the proximity damage while also allowing melee to keep uptime. Everyone should have shields on them.

You should always have an SCH or Noct AST in your party; Succor/Deployed Adlo or Noct Aspected Helios are enough to mitigate some the damage, with the second healer healing up the party before any following raid-wide AOE (e.g., Acid Rain); the healer that had to run back can single-target heal themselves if they don’t make it to the safe corner in time and take a bit of extra damage, or have a single target shield/mitigation on themselves, like Adlo, Noct A.Benefic, or Divine Benison. Tanks can also Reprisal; a WAR can SiO; PLDs can opt to last-second Passage of Arms if they want, but with shields/Reprisal/SiO, it shouldn’t be necessary. That all seems to fit within the job description of healing and mitigating damage; nothing out of the ordinary there, and none of these options really take that much more effort to do. Why have a tank lose GCDs when it is literally 1 GCD of adjustment on the healer’s part (e.g., casting Succor instead of Broil II)?

Mind you, healers do significantly less damage than a good tank, so healer damage isn’t a good arguing point there. And, like I said, the “healing adjustments” are negligible, and should be performed anyways—really and truly, the shield healer should always be shielding for that damage (or any AOE damage, really) to try and mitigate as much as possible, regardless of where the markers end up going. If they aren’t doing that, then they aren’t playing their job correctly.

Just wait until pugs figure out you can also mitigate head on and keep everyone up front for that too....

Am I missing something? All I read here is not something I know as 'solo-tank' strat, it's just the proper strat.

Since week 1 it's done this way.
It mirrors the pattern of old A1s impact AoEs, one most far away on x-axis, one far away on the y-axis on opposite side cornerwise.

Probably another non-optimal savage strategy distributed by Mizzteq? Yes, it is.
Pretty much like the "swap after 2 stacks" desaster we had with O2s.. a swap after the actual tankbuster is waaaaay smoother. Mizzteq, stop teaching people stupid strats.

I like how everyone is saying "if everyone is doing their job" or "if everything is done right"... How about you wake the f*** up and get out of that dreamland you live in where PF pugs do their jobs and do everything right. Most PF pugs can't find their arse in the dark without a map, a flashlight and written instructions. Expecting them to pull off a riskier strat without getting 2/3 of the party dead because the alternative is "non-optimal" is dumb. Optimization should come after competence and success, not have success be dependent on optimization.

inb4 "fflogs says you are shit" - I am shit. I know it. I have no illusion about my competence, which is middling at best.

It's not a solo tank strat at all. I shirk my co tank, he picks up the boss and Hallowed or heavy cooldowns through the tankbuster, I drop the marker and put Shake it Off shields on the party, healer takes care of acid rain afterward and everything is A-okay.

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Originally Posted by Sunspawn

I like how everyone is saying "if everyone is doing their job" or "if everything is done right"... How about you wake the f*** up and get out of that dreamland you live in where PF pugs do their jobs and do everything right. Most PF pugs can't find their arse in the dark without a map, a flashlight and written instructions. Expecting them to pull off a riskier strat without getting 2/3 of the party dead because the alternative is "non-optimal" is dumb.

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the strat is literaly having a shield healer use an aoe shield, the party to stay on a corner and the main tank on the other corner. its not that advanced, there are many others actual mechanics in the fight and are harder to do than this strat. if ppl can mess this up they will probably die to head on, go into the wrong ghost or even jump off the train lol

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Mizzteq, stop teaching people stupid strats.

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Eh, stacking upfront is an optimization strat - just like doing the ghost cheese. Last I checked Mizzteq doesn't cater to the speedrunning community so her guides are going to be made for her target audience. Besides that, her guides are usually more thorough than her competitors anyways.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Eh, stacking upfront is an optimization strat - just like doing the ghost cheese. Last I checked Mizzteq doesn't cater to the speedrunning community so her guides are going to be made for her target audience. Besides that, her guides are usually more thorough than her competitors anyways.

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Most importantly, her guides are safe. The solutions she gives to mechs might not give you the biggest uptime and epeen dps numbers, but they will increase your chances of clearing.

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Originally Posted by NotADps

the strat is literaly having a shield healer use an aoe shield, the party to stay on a corner and the main tank on the other corner. its not that advanced, there are many others actual mechanics in the fight and are harder to do than this strat. if ppl can mess this up they will probably die to head on, go into the wrong ghost or even jump off the train lol

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One or two people dying on head on is not as bad as 5/8 of the group dying because of a healer mistake or because they were 2mm closer to the boss than was safe. It is a matter of risk and reward - the risk of placing the tank prey close to the party, in a pug that did not clear yet, is greater than the reward of a small uptime increase for the tank.

Ideally you don't just watch mtq and call it good. If you're raid leading you want to be researched on a few different strats from a few different people so you can best direct the group to do what will work for them. Safe strats, for example, don't always work for people and uptime is actually easier (and thus, safer) than safe strat.

Food for thought. As Uncle Iroh said, power and wisdom drawn from only one source is frigid and frail.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Eh, stacking upfront is an optimization strat - just like doing the ghost cheese. Last I checked Mizzteq doesn't cater to the speedrunning community so her guides are going to be made for her target audience. Besides that, her guides are usually more thorough than her competitors anyways.

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Originally Posted by Rathael

Every PF group, despite having 2 tanks and the ability to tank swap, wants to place one tank marker in the closest corner a

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It seems it's more like the common strat, which everyone does.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Ideally you don't just watch mtq and call it good. If you're raid leading you want to be researched on a few different strats from a few different people so you can best direct the group to do what will work for them. Safe strats, for example, don't always work for people and uptime is actually easier (and thus, safer) than safe strat.

Food for thought. As Uncle Iroh said, power and wisdom drawn from only one source is frigid and frail.

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If you are raid leading, or even in a steady static, yes. We're talking about PF pugs though. And in my opinion, a foolproof, safe and assured clear is far better than a faster one that might fizz and change into a wipe from a single mistake during an important mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Sunspawn

If you are raid leading, or even in a steady static, yes. We're talking about PF pugs though. And in my opinion, a foolproof, safe and assured clear is far better than a faster one that might fizz and change into a wipe from a single mistake during an important mechanic.

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Even in PUGs, though, uptime strats become the norm. For V4S, during Grand Cross Delta, uptime strat was always used; safe strat was barely used even in learning/clear parties. Because the norm is uptime. It best for people to learn how to deal with all strats, because they will vary between PUG groups, but learning the norm is the most important, in my opinion. Because, if you are actively pugging every week, you’re going to run into it, and you’re going to have to know how to deal with it/perform it.

Considering the importance this game places on DPS (since healing and tanking responsibilities are relatively easy to do, and do not require too much active management outside of healing through tankbusters/raid damage and establishing aggro/using Provoke+Shirk), I think it is prudent for people to learn how to do standard uptime strategies.

The strat being described in this thread has been used in every single V5S PUG group I have ever been in—they have never done the “safe strat” where both tank and healer drop their preys at the back of the arena. That’s why I think it’s important to learn how to do the strat, and, as I said before, it takes 1 GCD of adjustment on the part of the healer (shield healer, specifically), and that is using a GCD on Succor or Noct Aspected Helios as opposed to Broil II or Malefic III. The net gain of not having the tank lose 3-4 (or more) GCDs more than outweighs the exchange for a healer pressing 1 less DPS button.

If the adjustment was something mildly complicated that required active communication, then I could see your point. But it’s literally substituting a Broil II/Malefic III cast for an AOE shield spell instead. Healing up afterwards is also very simple (e.g., if your shield healer is a SCH, Indomitability is the perfect skill for that; Regen healer could use Medica II/Di Aspected Helios to tick up the remaining HP, and/or prep for Acid Rain; WHM could Assize+Medica II, etc.). It’s not as complicated as it seems; the benefits outweigh the consequences, in my opinion (i.e., lost damage on the part of the tank).

If the party is wiping repeatedly, it’s not the fault of the strat—it’s the fault of the healer failing to prepare for the mechanic; especially if this is not a learning party, but a weekly clear, in which everyone is expected to know how to perform their job in the content. And, again, the preparation is really simple. If the entire party wants to do the uptime strat, I’m sorry, but the healers are going to have to learn how to adjust, or make their own group advocating for the safe strat. But this is just my opinion.

And yet every O5S pug I tried this week (got my first clear last week, kinda late for the party and apathetic besides) wiped at that exact mechanic multiple times in a row. It is clearly, to me at least, a strat that the general populace is simply incapable of executing reliably, just like casuals spouting meta which they do not understand and cannot come close to fulfilling.

Also, it's not solely the failure of healers, as I occasionally see tanks running about like headless chickens with the prey marker or dps standing too close, or even being completely oblivious, to the marker.

I too have seen countless deaths in the group on meteor damage with PF groups. The tanks insist on placing the meteor in the corner because "it's the normal way". The only valid reason to argue this is to gain a total of 20 to 30 seconds of tank up-time assuming you see 3 meteors. This equates to between 5 and 8 seconds saved against the enrage timer total(not including any off-tank or healer DPS which would make it even less). This is absolutely nothing. DPS can easily make up for 5 seconds by not dying to mechanics (such as the meteor). When you're in a group that is picking up deaths to the meteor mechanic, it is not valid to just blame it on healers and argue that the tank up-time is going to make any difference at all.

I made the thread originally because I saw a healer doing this and completely lost my sanity. Their reason was because "It's the normal way". People don't seem to stop and think about if the "normal" way actually makes any sense.

This could hardly be considered an up-time strategy with the amount of damage it actually gains you. An up-time strategy would be having the group eat head-on together or the warrior skipping ghosts strategy. They gain a number of seconds of full party up-time and significantly reduce the pressure of the enrage timer.

Sounds like another party finder meme come to life. Even better when it happens in O5N because miniscule DPS > not killing your party members because how many parties of randoms communicate beyond "Hi," and "GG?"