Mithra - Ancestor of Miqo'te?

Looking at the description of the Mithra minion:

https://i.imgur.com/BOo8H1U.png


Is it just a FFXI reference? Or does this mean that Mithra really existed in Hydaelyn (Or Vana'diel)?

Eureka's going hard on the XI references an stuff, iirc. Even bringing in classic armors and stuff from what I remember seeing. At any rate, I'd say it's just a reference until other stuff corroborates it. Or that there's a XIV version of the Mithra that existed in the distant past that eventually evolved into the Miqo'te.

This may be another case of "the NPCs have only a limited world knowledge but think they know everything", which is especially a case with the Sharlayans.

The Keeper/Seeker split is very distinct, to the point where Sharlayan naturalists are probably having slap-fights over whether to classify them as the same species or sister species, so a Sharlayan Scholar coming up with a common ancestor hypothesis wouldn't be odd.

. . . the same Sharlayan Scholar then making a little dress-up doll of their pet theory, a tiny bit odd, but I've seen researchers do weirder.

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Anonymoose - Yesterday at 4:35 AM
"the Mithra─ancient ancestor of the Miqo'te"
Uh oh.
Braces for impact.

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As far as I can tell from the flavor-text (which is still no less than 90% ribbing FFXI players via ambiguous language), if you were going to try to hand-wave it in-world, the implication would be that a Sharlayan scholar was attempting to replicate what they believed ancient Miqo'te may have looked like, and these ancient Miqo'te are known (at least to them) as "Mithra". It doesn't necessarily (without more concrete examples) carry any more transdimensional implication than the simultaneous use of "Moogle" or "Qiqirn" in both games.

That said, minions and mounts have been slowly, but surely, sliding into the same quasi-to-pseudo-canon bubbles as limited-time events and such, anyway. Notice the Fafnir minion actually makes a 4th-wall-breaking reference to Ridill's FFXI drop rate.

Personally I'm taking that as more a meta reference of the mithra being miqo'te's 'ancestors' rather than an in-universe reference, as it makes sense. FFXIV 1.0 was originally planned to be FFXI's literal successor, and SE entertained the idea of transferring all existing FFXI player character data into the new game, which resulted in FFXIV's player races being based on the FFXI player races for this reason (Tanaka quickly realized the idea was going to be utterly unworkable and so scrapped that idea, but instead decided on FFXIV being a 'spiritual' rather than a physical successor to FFXI, retaining the similar races (this is also after all why only female miqo'te and male roegadyn were playable in FFXIV 1.0, just like FFXI with the mithra and galka respectively).

So in a meta way, the comment in that minion's description about the mithra being "ancient ancestors of the miqo'te" is a wry tongue-in-cheek in-joke to FFXI's races serving as the original inspiration for the design of FFXIV's races. It's most definitely not 'proof' that the mithra actually literally existed on Hydaelyn in the ancient past and the miqo'te descended from them somehow - as after all, we've already seen npcs of two other FFXI player races appear in Hydaelyn (tarutaru and hume) and there was absolutely no mention of how they might be connected to Hydaelyn's races... (apart from jokes about Shantotto's taru mannerisms resembling lalafell with her minion, only they're not), again I'm simply taking that as a funny joke at FFXIV's spiritual ancestor (16 years is a rather long time in gaming, as far as the life of a MMO is concerned, almost MMORPGs' early history in a way ;)) - in both cases Shantotto and Iroha are mentioned as coming literally from Vana'diel to Hydaelyn by transdimensional shenanigans.

And, as a final word, remember the statement made by Maehiro about Vana'diel and Hydaelyn not being the same world kind of proves that the mithra are not lore-wise miqo'te's ancient ancestors (and that was confirmed by both the FFXI special events outright saying that Vana'diel is a whole different world), but even if you ignored that, the meta references can be easily handwaved lore-wise away anyway as simply yet more mucked-up history-warping by Sharlayan scholars who simply made a mistake.

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Originally Posted by Gildrien

1:57:29
Q: A lot of names from Ivalice have been mentioned such as Dalmasca, Belias, and Zodiak. Is there some kind of connection between Hydaelyn and Ivalice?
A: Maehiro: To be absolutely clear, there is no direct connection between FFXIV’s Hydaelyn and FFXII’s Ivalice or even FFXI’s Vana’diel. They are not the same world in different dimensions or time—they are their own separate worlds. However, there are certain connections to people or objects that appear in these other worlds that figure into the story of FFXIV as it has been conceived and is being told.

Yoshida: We’ll be revealing more as we move forward.

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P.S. And proving that Ferne has a wicked sense of humour, the comment from FFXI's Nanaa Mihgo (aka the notorious 'Cat Burglar' of Windurst) is actually taken from Nanaa's Trust NPC in FFXI (it's the comment the npc makes when the player summons her) - as the Trust NPCs in FFXI are not the real person but simply a magical construct (a magical robot if you will), then that makes this comment attached to a minion all the more ironic. ;)

I know it's probably just funny flavor text/in game joke but you know now that a bunch of other players are going to take this as their head canon now.

I reckon it's probably just a case of reused assets as it were, as others have already said like the other similarities, it's not out of the realm of possibility what while Vana'diel and Eorzea are in no way connected the Mithra do exist in both, it's simply that the Mithra eventually became the Miqo'te in Eorzea for one reason or another. Mithra is probably what they where known as before they split into Moon Keepers and Sun Seekers.

It doesn't really need to imply any higher connection than the existence of the Goblins, Marmool Ja, or Qiqirn imply.

That being said there is something to be said for the idea that the FFXIVxFFXI crossover event with Iroha is an example of how the two worlds could be connected, and ancient Mithra could have come to Eorzea the same way she did and just settled here. But that's baseless speculation and the truth of the matter is simply that it's the name for the Miqo'te Ancestors.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Looking at the description of the Mithra minion:

https://i.imgur.com/BOo8H1U.png


Is it just a FFXI reference? Or does this mean that Mithra really existed in Hydaelyn (Or Vana'diel)?

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Interesting. Devs very clearly stated that Miqo'te/Hydaelyn races have no relation to Vana'diel ones some years ago. I wonder if this means they're going back on that now...

I don’t want ANY connections to Vanadiel aside from references, but I could see Hydaelin, and Vanadiel being two sides of dimensions, and nothing more.

Well, based on this new evidence, there are two theories:

One, mithra really were the ancestors of miqo'te and just so happen to look identical to their XI incarnations.

Two, it's a historical inaccuracy and mithra are fictional on Hydaelyn, but the myth persists through word of mouth.

There's lots of similar instances in either direction. It's been repeatedly stated there's no direct connection between Hydaelyn and any other game world from the franchise, so this... doesn't really change anything besides providing a plausible ancestor race for miqo'te (who are, purely coincidentally, very similar if not identical to their XI incarnations).

Interesting

It might just be a reference then! I guess we don't have to trust any Sharlayan :P

At most some ancient Miqo'tes were called Mithra, possibly even being ancestors to either one or both of our current tribes (most likely the Sunseekers since to my understanding they are much closer to what Mithra were like compared to the Moon ones.) But XI itself is not XIV's ancient past, and thus the Mithra of XIV are not XI, just named as a refrence to them from our prespective.

Shantatto is specifically noted as being similar to a Lalafell but different enough for people to tell when she shows up, so we know that people wouldn't automatically think "Lalafell" when it comes to Tarutarus in-universe, same would probably be for Mithra if any were to suddenly exist in the present.

I think Koji hates us

I am really starting to think Hydaelin is Vana'diel after it got struck by a meator (Think of how the dinosaurs got wiped out)

And this REALLY helps the rp lore I have for Athena! (Who is a reincarnation of Tohihroyu, a Mithra. You might be wondering why a Femroe and not a Miq'ote? cause of her affinity to the Galka and that after retiring from Adventuring she sails away to an island desert city populated by Galka and eventually becomes the Sultana of the Galka since there is already a Talekeeper.

Sorry for rambling, its just a theory I have and like expanding on my own lore for my character(s) ^^;

We should be used to names from other games being reused in FFXIV by now. I'm not sure why these kinds of questions keep popping up.

Just because a name is mentioned doesn't mean it's the literal same thing as the game it came from.

Crystal tower in FFXIV is not the literal crystal tower from FFIII
Rabanastre is not the literal Rabanastre from FFXII
We have characters like Krile, Ramza, and now Galuf showing up, but these are not literally the same people from their respective games.

The same thing is going on with the drop of Mithra in this flavor text. They are not the literal Mithra from FFXI just something in FFXIV with the same name.

Apparently it's the name used by Sharlayan scholars to refer to an ancient species of Miqote.

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Originally Posted by Unittj

I think Koji hates us

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I don't know about hates, but I am beginning to suspect there's a shadow panel that gets together every patch cycle to decide where they're going to affix an ostensibly random reference to Gaius van Baelsar, and how best to phrase it to raise my blood pressure.

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Originally Posted by Eureka

Friend of mine in the Immortal Flames, back in Eorzea, told me all about him. Said he led an elite unit of adventurers into the Praetorium and faced down Gaius van Baelsar himself! Be amazing to meet a man like that, don't you think?

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/35...824651.png?v=1

If you remember the FFXI and FFXIII crossover events, both stated that Lightning and Shantotto came from "other stars" which also correlates to the main quest with the Warriors of Light/Darkness. So my understanding is that Vana'diel and Ivalice do exist, but they are different planets within the same universe.

well I'm personally gonna go with Enkidoh's "it's a meta reference" plus a dose of "Koji thinks he's funny again" for this one. Also here's what the German client says:
tooltip: Ähnelt einer gewissen Miqo'te. Resembles a certain Miqo'te
Minion list description: Ein Mechaniker der Gelehrten Baldesions schuf diese Puppe. Historiker können glockenlang darüber sprechen, warum sie einer Miqo'te ähnelt, oder was es mit dem Scorpio-Rüstschutz auf sich hat, den die Puppe trägt. A mechanic of the students of Baldesion created this doll. Historians can talk for bells about why it resembles a Miqo'te, or about the meaning of the Scorpio harness it wears
Hover over tooltip: Nicht zu verwechseln mit anderen Felidae. Not to confuse with other felidae
Hover over quote: M-Miau... Schnurrr schnurrr schnurrr - Traditionelle Grussworte der Mithra M-mew... purrr purrr purrr - traditional Mithra greetings

also the JP description roughly reads as: "A mechanic of the students of Baldesion created this doll. Appears to be a recreation of an imaginary ancestor to the Miqo'te. Wears a Scorpio-harness that appeared in ancient literature, which makes you feel that the creator feared no cost in creating it".

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Originally Posted by Malistaire

If you remember the FFXI and FFXIII crossover events, both stated that Lightning and Shantotto came from "other stars" which also correlates to the main quest with the Warriors of Light/Darkness. So my understanding is that Vana'diel and Ivalice do exist, but they are different planets within the same universe.

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Since other universes presumably contain stars, as well, there's no reason to suspect that the "other stars" being referred to here must be in the same universe as Hyaedalyn.

Seriously, the cosmology of FFXIII does not mesh well with FFXIV at all, and FFXI has some pretty severe conflicts, as well, such as the Cloud of Darkness being a nonsentient cosmic "weather", rather than a malevolent entity from the Void. It seems extraordinarily unlikely that they share a universe with each other, or with FFXIV.

I mean, you COULD go so far as to postulate that each world, in spite of being in the same universe, has its own microcosm of universal principles, its own pantheon of deities, its own array of cosmic forces - but if you're going to go that far, why is it so important to place them in the same universe in the first place? Presumably, the goal in doing so is to draw commonality between them, is it not?

There is also this tidbit from the Hatching-tide event to consider:

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...c35b13c6b2.jpg

Looks like a reference to Mihli Aliapoh, the white mage Serpent General in Al Zahbi.

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Originally Posted by Rhonin_Dragonheart

There is also this tidbit from the Hatching-tide event to consider:

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...c35b13c6b2.jpg

Looks like a reference to Mihli Aliapoh, the white mage Serpent General in Al Zahbi.

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Consider...what, though?

This seems to be causing people to re-evaluate the level to which Hydaelyn is connected to Vana'diel; during a Reddit discussion, mentioning that the minion text is probably nothing and the two aren't connected - something I thought was a general consensus among the more lore-focused players - resulted in a surprising level of dismissal and disagreement. But my question is...why?

What I was - and remain - curious about is what makes any of this any different from any other use of references in Final Fantasy XIV? We've had characters named after others before and we've had races and concepts and settings lifted nearly wholesale before, and every single time they've been rewritten and presented as a Hydaelyn original, totally separate and distinct from their original context. If there was no precedence for this, maybe I'd understand, but I really gotta know what makes people think that the recent appearance of Tenzen/implication that Miquo'te may be descended from something called a Mithra/name-dropping of Jihli is any different from the appearance of, say, Ramza or Xande or even Raubahn?

Honestly like I said before there is probably nothing more to it than a shared name for a reference.
If we question whether or not the existence of the Mithra implies a connection to other universes then why aren't we doing the same for the Goblins? Mandagoras? The entirety of several dungeons?
As much as I love lore and extensive theories and hate being the spoil sport the connection here is pretty clear. At some point in Eorzea's history, the Miqo'te were known as Mithra.
That's pretty much all there is to it outside of the exceptionally boring "It's just a reference"

Vana'diel and Eorzea are not on the same planet, the Mithra being here implicate about as much as every other reference. They're being used to enrich the story as an independent one rather than make vast connections.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

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This was my thought, a meta reference to the initial inspiration of the Miqo'te. Plus if they decide to add the Mithra into the gsme they might be Miqo'te adjacent instead of a direct ancestor; think like early humans and neanderthals, we are related but they are not our ancestors.