We're confused. Could we have some developer explanations on the 4.25 PvP changes?

Hi all!

I have to say I'm puzzled by the 4.25 changes, I didn't think that's the direction they would go in at all, and I don't think I'm the only one.

Recently, we posted a lot of feedback on these forums which we think was well-received. The dev team let us know that they were listening, but warned us that any change involving the map would take more time to deploy and wouldn't be live in time for 4.25.

Fair enough.

But then, the patch notes show that the changes that were actually made not only ignore the remainder of the feedback we've given, but go directly against it. I think that considering the context, at least an explanation for those changes would go a long way in maintaining confidence from the PvP community.

• Why were Lichenweed and the Feasting Grounds not added back to the map rotation? You didn't remove the Feasting Grounds when you added Lichenweed in the game a few months back. I know that the wall patterns aren't always the same on Crystal Tower, but the same map over and over will quickly get boring. Why remove maps? What's to gain from it?

• Why was WHM buffed? A good healer is already the most powerful class in the right hands since you need coordination between 2 DPS bursts and a tank's cc to reliably get a kill against a single healer, who on his end only needs occasional support from the tank (when **** hits the fan, if you will). Of those, WHM was widely regarded as the best healer, and the most oppressive to play against. Why were they buffed instead of SCH? Do you have some sort of internal data about WHM winrates or something, anything that suggested they weren't up to par and needed this?

• Why was damage nerfed across the board? The most recent batch of changes (which saw match time reduced to 6 minutes) increased everyone's survivability by quite a bit and made it harder to get any kills, for many reasons (reduction of the Heavy Medal damage increase, addition of the Light Medal damage reduction for dying, limit on the amount of medals each job can pick up, HP pools buffed, damage reduction trait buffed, Safeguard/Purify/Concentrate/Muse cooldowns reduced, healer spells MP costs not adjusted for the shorter match times). Our feedback regarding this was clear. What made you think these changes were needed?

So yeah, as a member of a few different PvP communities, I can say that all of them were confused upon reading the patch notes. Strong jobs were buffed (WHM), weak jobs were nerfed (MNK, SMN of all things????), it simply makes no sense to us, and it goes against the feedback that we left and thought you heard in the preseason. I don't want to sound entitled to an explanation, but I think it would be a very good thing so we can at least understand why you went against our feedback.

Thank you for your time.

10000000% confused.

Well the people asking for mch nerfs a few threads down got their wish.

I think healers in general are pretty stupid now, compared to before. And that it has less to do with feedback, or even with balance, so much as it does with queues and the fact that not enough people want to play them. Like, they're just going to keep getting buffed until that balances out. Obviously Im not a dev, but thats my guess.

What really seems odd to me is how they're making all these changes immediately before a season begins. Couldn't they "monitor" during and make changes before preseason? x_x

I'm not sure why they ask for PvP feedback when they clearly did not listen to the feedback at all.

I'm not being sarcastic when I say it's gown downhill pretty much every patch. And this PvP patch they managed to piss off both the PvE and PvP population.

yeah feast is actually busted now

Damage wasn't nerfed across the board. WAR was flat buffed, MNK they simply moved some power to different actions.

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Originally Posted by Enlial

What really seems odd to me is how they're making all these changes immediately before a season begins. Couldn't they "monitor" during and make changes before preseason? x_x

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They probably have been monitoring, and I'd bet that's the basis for these changes.

Well feedback is based other forums as well, not only English forums. You dont know what ppl speak in JP forum.

That awkward moment when they completely forgot PvP teams exist

I'm going to climb solo queue as WHM. For Light Party, I recommend using a MNK/SMN composition when you face against my team! ^_^

This is a stupid joke.

White mage buffed, astrologian nerf is a joke, schoolar not touched at all...
Paladin nerfed FOR NO REASON, Bard untouched, ninja nerfed for no reason as well, wth with that dragon nerf.

Seriously do they play their pvp, because its seems ridiculous.
The only good thing is machinist nerf but that does not make any sense since with the healers remaining the most important part of pvp it will make even harder to kill healers instead, thats all rest of it seems weird or taken out from space.

Oh look, SMN nerfed again.

I think the map changes were not going to be put in place until 4.3

Everything else came out of left field though...

Don't flame the one intern at SE responsible for the pvp development. He might add even more crazy changes.

I was expecting a nerf on cover on paladin instead. With the new map being just a round room if little space this thing is op af. Nerfing MNK Burst was totally stupid, imo.

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Originally Posted by Kai_Lee

Don't flame the one intern at SE responsible for the pvp development. He might add even more crazy changes.

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Japanese companies do not have intern system.
These changes are decision from this guy:

https://twitter.com/moriguchi_mos

Why are we even playing this?! hahaha Seriously tho, let's introduce some competition to the devs, and bring our money to another MMO... one with decent PvP. *Looks at the Blade and Soul website, clicks on download.* Bye guys! o/

*Cancel's download and secretly logs back into FFXIV.*

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Originally Posted by Astrophysx

Why are we even playing this?! hahaha Seriously tho, let's introduce some competition to the devs, and bring our money to another MMO... one with decent PvP. *Looks at the Blade and Soul website, clicks on download.* Bye guys! o/

*Cancel's download and secretly logs back into FFXIV.*

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I have played Tera after FF14 1.0 flopped. While I like the active combat system (especially the combat system for the tank), it is nevertheless a pay to win.
I wouldnt find Blade and Soul much different, as all Korean mmorpg especially are PTW.

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Originally Posted by Crit

yeah feast is actually busted now

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You're busted.

ily zophy:o:o:o

[QUOTE=Nedkel;4611510]This is a stupid joke.

White mage buffed, astrologian nerf is a joke, schoolar not touched at all...
Paladin nerfed FOR NO REASON, wth with that dragon nerf.

Do you even Feast? Paladins absolutely needed that nerf.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I have played Tera after FF14 1.0 flopped. While I like the active combat system (especially the combat system for the tank), it is nevertheless a pay to win.
I wouldnt find Blade and Soul much different, as all Korean mmorpg especially are PTW.

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Arena is actually pretty not p2w (outside of HM skills, which they're addressing IIRC in an upcoming patch). If you want to play BNS just for 1v1 PVP, it's not bad (miles above this game, for instance).

The PVE is enjoyable but definitely p2w if you don't no-life or get into a good guild willing to carry you to better gear from where you start out.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Arena is actually pretty not p2w (outside of HM skills, which they're addressing IIRC in an upcoming patch). If you want to play BNS just for 1v1 PVP, it's not bad (miles above this game, for instance).

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HM skills are not hard to get either. You can farm hm skill in pvp with zen beans or pay few bucks from duelist bundle and get everything at once. Battleground 6v6 mode other hand is insanely stupid in that game, because even if you have 200k+ hp and 3k crit def, whales one shot you. Balance is not good either and ncsoft did not do any balance patches like half year after world tournament. Warlock is still insanely stupid. If you play blademaster, you have to play like 5x better than opponent if you wanna win warlock.

You know, I find that explaining why buffs and nerfs were made is possibly one of the most valuable things we could have in the pvp world. If we take into consideration of other competitive games, we can get a clear understanding why nerfs and buffs were made and understand exactly what the Meta is to the devs, and how they plan to shift it.

If we don’t get any explanations then it makes it seem like the Devs don’t understand their own game’s meta. That’s dangerous for a competitive game in general.

Yes I don't understand why we don't at least get an explanation for changes that were made, it seems like it's just random otherwise. Other companies like Blizzard are a lot more open about their design process and why they make certain decisions. For example, if they buff healers maybe it's because they feel they want matches to slow down a little - perhaps I won't agree, but at least I know what they're thinking.

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Originally Posted by AchaNoYumi

You know, I find that explaining why buffs and nerfs were made is possibly one of the most valuable things we could have in the pvp world. If we take into consideration of other competitive games, we can get a clear understanding why nerfs and buffs were made and understand exactly what the Meta is to the devs, and how they plan to shift it.

If we don’t get any explanations then it makes it seem like the Devs don’t understand their own game’s meta. That’s dangerous for a competitive game in general.

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Exactly this. Something similiar to what Jeff does for Overwatch would be a great step in the right direction.
It would really show that the devs at least understand the game and genuinely have an interest in the pvp community.

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Originally Posted by lovelikewinter

Exactly this. Something similiar to what Jeff does for Overwatch would be a great step in the right direction.
It would really show that the devs at least understand the game and genuinely have an interest in the pvp community.

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I was always under the impression that Live Letters were meant to fulfill that purpose. It seems like over time they've been far less open with what they're willing to talk about...and a considerable amount of time is now devoted to promoting optional merchandise instead of addressing reasonable issues with the game.

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Originally Posted by AchaNoYumi

You know, I find that explaining why buffs and nerfs were made is possibly one of the most valuable things we could have in the pvp world.

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Do you 'really' want to know, though?

They've made healers as powerful as they currently are not because of balance concerns, but because "if they weren't that strong, nobody would want to play them." Literally. That's the kind of statements you get when the devs do tell you why they made certain adjustments. Do you really want to see more of that iceberg? Like that old interview in which they stated that they don't expect tanks and healers to DPS beyond the aggro combo in Savage and how they do the tuning? Or the pre-SB live letter where they finally realized Raid Synergies are a thing that should be balanced? Their recent argumentation around tank accessories?

Believe me when I say this: You would get the impression the devs don't understand their own game far, FAR more often if they did give you explanations. Read some old interviews to get a taste.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I was always under the impression that Live Letters were meant to fulfill that purpose. It seems like over time they've been far less open with what they're willing to talk about...and a considerable amount of time is now devoted to promoting optional merchandise instead of addressing reasonable issues with the game.

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Hm...yeah I guess you're right.
It's what the Liveletter is supposed to be.

But it's very much so fallen by the wayside in that sense.
It'd be nice for them to reevaulate their transparency with their playerbase, regardless.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Reeee

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Even if they are wrong with their buffs and nerfs the community will have a better understanding why they did what they did and will be able to appropriately construct and helpfully criticize their decisions with more accuracy.

So yes, I would still want it even with what you said.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

x

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Understanding where the devs stand will give us more room to helpfully criticize them if they make errors in the explanations to see quicker improvement.

Jeez, some people would argue with a brick wall given the chance...

I guess they don't want to open that whole can of worms and subject themselves to criticism like that, and feel like they have to pass every decision they make by the players first before it's implemented.

That being said, sometimes I feel like the best thing that could happen for FFXIV would be the adoption of a private playtesting server before pushing things live so they COULD get direct feedback from the community.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

I guess they don't want to open that whole can of worms and subject themselves to criticism like that, and feel like they have to pass every decision they make by the players first before it's implemented.

That being said, sometimes I feel like the best thing that could happen for FFXIV would be the adoption of a private playtesting server before pushing things live so they COULD get direct feedback from the community.

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God yes, a beta testing server for people who sign up for it would be amazing.

Even having two; one for pve and one for pvp. I’m sure all active pvpers would be on board testing out the pvp server

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Originally Posted by AchaNoYumi

God yes, a beta testing server for people who sign up for it would be amazing.

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We are beta testing for the next expansion XD.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

We are beta testing for the next expansion XD.

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Daaannnggg nice! Is there one for pvp then?

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Originally Posted by AchaNoYumi

If we don’t get any explanations then it makes it seem like the Devs don’t understand their own game’s meta. That’s dangerous for a competitive game in general.

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This seems to be a simple adjustment patch to address 4.2 buff each jobs received and overall tune down every job's burst ability.

PLD

Clemency received 1000 increased in potency in 4.2 and now tune down by 500. This seems to be a simple balance adjustment.

WAR

War received a buff to bring it up to par with other 2 tanks.

MNK

Reverse the buff received and shift the burst damage into sustain damage

DRG

Received a buff in 4.2 but only received a TP cost adjustment. This seems reasonable.

NIN

Overall buffed by 4.2 patch. The adjustment in this patch seems to have something to do with certain strategy developed by Japanese PvP community

MCH

The wildfire nerf is justified as this job has been over buffed in 4.2. A very easy burst combo can zero out a meele target within 3s. Even with wildfire potency down to 33%, this burst combo still can lower meele target HP by 90%. (tested in 1 v 1 and Frontline with no control variables)

SMN

Simple tune down adjustment for buff received in 4.2

No comment on two healers. I personally thinks they are two strong on Frontline but since buff is for the Feast, nothing much to say. Overall the adjustment seems to be fine, not sure why you ignore the buffs received at 4.2

Well, you know that if such a thing existed (for PVE anyway), people would SWAMP it because they want to be the first to try out new things. Plus they'd have to block out all kinds of stuff relevant to the story and such. It would be very time consuming and I can see why they haven't done it so far because of the investment needed in terms of time, programming, etc.

So rather than just letting anyone who wants to sign up join, bring in players who have a history of providing constructive feedback from all regions. Bring in a handful of random players who have less than X playtime and players who have more than Y playtime.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Well, you know that if such a thing existed (for PVE anyway), people would SWAMP it because they want to be the first to try out new things. Plus they'd have to block out all kinds of stuff relevant to the story and such.

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I think you're overestimating how desirable itd be to the average player. Many, many, online games have public test servers (which is why its a common term). People generally dont want to invest time in something where they know once the testing period is over, all their progress and achievements get wiped. The story spoilers are probably a big reason they dont do it, since patches are very much story-driven (more so than most other mmos). They've expressed concern over datamined spoilers in the past, they're pretty protective on that front.

Its also very hard not to get the impression that the dev team is understaffed. So yeah, that too.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

This seems to be a simple adjustment patch to address 4.2 buff each jobs received and overall tune down every job's burst


MNK

Reverse the buff received and shift the burst damage into sustain damage

No comment on two healers. I personally thinks they are two strong on Frontline but since buff is for the Feast, nothing much to say. Overall the adjustment seems to be fine, not sure why you ignore the buffs received at 4.2

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there's no such thing as sustain damage in feast, therefore, monk is now garbo

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Originally Posted by Crit

there's no such thing as sustain damage in feast, therefore, monk is now garbo

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Maybe, but this seems to be the thrend they want to go based on the content of the adjustments. Most of spike damage got removed.

I really can't understand these changes either. The iteration of healer balance is not fun to play as or against. And they go ahead and buff healing, give more survivability, and nerf damage. On TOP of the recent "light medal" status addition.

Here's your player feed back, SE:

• We'd like PvP to be more esports viable, meaning it has to be more fun to watch. Feast needs more deaths.
• We'd like to feel like progress is being made when fighting non-stop for 5 minutes. Feast needs more deaths..
• We'd like to be able to have a chance to win if the enemy team's healer greatly outskills our own. Feast needs more deaths.
• Did we mention that Feast needs more deaths?
• And last but not least, Feast needs more deaths.

And we don't even need to get into Frontlines where a chance 1v1 encounter with a healer is gigantic waste of time.

So let's get back to the direction you're taking, SE. Increasing survivability, buffing healings, and nerfing damage? Let's take that direction and do the complete opposite. There's another direction you're taking, SE. The direction where you ignore all of our feedback? Let's take that direction and do the complete opposite as well.

Or...stay with me now cause this is a million dollar idea here...you could communicate with us about why you've made these changes, and then they might make a little sense to us. Because right now it just looks like you enjoy perpetuating the torture on us that is the current state of healing in PvP, and it feels like you enjoy the fact that hardly anyone likes or participates in PvP.