24 man tanking advice

I've finally gotten around to leveling my tanks(all of them at once, actually, so far I think I like PLD the most, though DRK is fun to), and normally I end up OT'ing when one of the other tanks steps up to the plate to tank immediately. A few days ago though I actually got to be the MT in a Void Ark run and pretty quickly I noticed there were a couple things I'd need to come here and ask about.

Mostly this part. When I got to the bosses, I mostly just stayed in Shield Oath the whole time and mostly kept on using Rage of Halone. I know I'm not supposed to do that because I've got Goring Blade, Royal Authority, and other nifty toys now to boost my dps, but there was one thing keeping me from playing right. I can't see anyone's hate level outside of my party, so I was worried about someone from a different party or one of the other tanks catching up to me the whole time. About how much hate, roughly, am I supposed to make before it's okay to "safely" stop generating hate and switch to doing damage? Some rule of the thumb, perhaps?

That and, on trash, how much AoE threat is enough to put down before you do anything else? There were multiple instances where I'd flash two or three times, then the mobs lived long enough that if I started trying to dps I'd lose them. Normally in the 4 mans for AoE I'd drop two Flashes, then tap each of the monsters with individual bits of the RoH combo to maintain hate and that gets the job done, just sometimes that isn't enough in a raid setting.

So I guess to sum it up, hate. How much hate is enough to stop making more of it?

As an aside, main tanking 24 mans is intimidating, heh. I'm definitely used to the 4 mans by this point, 8 mans aren't bad either, but being the leader of that Void Ark was a lot of "Don't screw this up, just keep hate so other people don't die and stand in the right spot", heh. That'll get better with time I suspect.

I would generally not advise leaving tank stance in 24 player content becuase you cannot see other people's agro, unless I've been missing something for a long time. However, after your initial threat combo (two if you feel insecure) I would just start running through your dps combo and throw in a rage of halone once in awhile if you "feel" like you need it. There is definately a point at which you can leave tank stance, I've just had so many OT tank stance heros that I generally try to just OT, or more likely run dps or healer for these things.

General tips, you can see on your alliance list who hate is currently on if they aren't in your party (I think there box is highlighted red). If it is switching from you to another target check if it is a tank, if it is check their stance and see if you can see what they are doing. It is unfortunate, but most of the time I lose hate in these things I'm staring at an OT sitting in their tank stance spamming their enmity combo.

Also, get real familiar with the provoke and ultimatum animations. You'll see alot of people who like to provoke and try to steal your aggro.

None of that helps you to figure out your aggro, but it will atleast help you tell the difference between being trolled and needing more aggro combo.

If you do choose to leave tank stance, just remember, it is fundamentally the same thing as a light party or full party content. If dps and healers are using their aggro manipulation you should have no trouble doing what you do in other content, but unfortunately you need to trust that they are using these tools rather than being able to see them.

Just pay attention to the boss' name on your enemy list. The faster the red dot blinks, the closer you are to losing threat. When that happens, switch to shield oath and whack your target a few times until the dot is a nice solid red, then go back to dpsing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Also, get real familiar with the provoke and ultimatum animations. You'll see alot of people who like to provoke and try to steal your aggro.

None of that helps you to figure out your aggro, but it will atleast help you tell the difference between being trolled and needing more aggro combo.

---

On a semi related note, theres a few bosses Im used to the tank dying to certain mechanics, be it their own fault, or the healers, or some other combination. (Such as Machi, where the boss takes a tank to 1hp, and on a rare occasion will auto attack at the same moment, where a perfectly timed insta heal wont save them, and only invulns can keep the tank alive. The boss does this 3 times, which is enough for each tank to invuln through it. Of course a pug isnt going to tank swap invuln.)

So I'll provoke roughly near the mechanic, where i know the boss is casting, so the MT can still hold hate, as I continue to DPS as an OT.
They go down, and I'm practically where they were in threat.
Though some tanks view it as an attempt to MT mid fight, while they are still tanking.

In 24 mans ask who is mt. If know one replies , take the boss in your tank stance, do an agro combo then switch to dps. If the other tanks are any good they will be in dps mode anyway. So many times I see tanks playing tug of war because I dunno, its an ego thing. Best way, say in alliance chat or ask who is mt or say you want to and just tank the boss like a pro. So many people just go in and you see these tank tug of wars and then adds get missed and etc. Bottom line , bring it up in alliance chat to see who is mt. If you don’t handle your alliance area adds appropriately. If you get into a tug of war, just bail. Let the douche tank have it. You are a better tank for communicating

Basically that’s all the good advice OP.
Only thing I’d add and it kind of touches on points made above. If you do go the route of letting a tug of war tank have it, just be prepared to take it back on short notice. Far too often have I seen tug of war types either drop like a damp noodle suddenly or switch to DPS stance and shirk the first thing they see just to offload the enmity they now have. 24 mans have a weird little environment like that!

Gear is the biggest factor. For example, you can't have a silly i310 tank in rabanastre who does his usual "one or two hate combos" at the start and try to cruise the whole fight in dps stance. It simply won't work that way! Simply put, if your gear's up to snuff for the tier and you know how to do big dps as a tank, you can rest assured your position as MT is secured even while out of tank stance.

If for whatever reason you lose hate after following the above, then the blame's just not on you. It's on the OT who sat in tank stance, or the healer who doesn't know how to avoid AoE overheal, or the stupid dps that are too lazy to use diversion. In either case, it's a win-win situation. You either get to be a dps-stance MT rockstar, or you get to yell at people's dumb mistakes.

Gear is a big factor.

Generally when I main tank as long as I am in tank stance and do a ranged pull I can go into my dps combo immediately.

However if you are undergeared you may have to open with a enmity combo but after that you should be fine

Something else I've found out. Don't forget to check what stances the other tanks are in at the start of a fight. If they are both in Tank stance, just go DPS stance to keep it a two-way tug-of-war instead of a three-way which is even worse. But do be ready to grab aggro at all times if they don't know what they're doing.

If I pull and another tank feels like taking agro (either because I'm lower geared or they just want agro) I'll just shirk them and switch to off tank. But I'll generally just hang out in tank stance since there is so many people doing damage me being in dps stance isn't worth losing hate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spiriel_Basanda

As an aside, main tanking 24 mans is intimidating, heh. I'm definitely used to the 4 mans by this point, 8 mans aren't bad either, but being the leader of that Void Ark was a lot of "Don't screw this up, just keep hate so other people don't die and stand in the right spot", heh. That'll get better with time I suspect.

---

I have the exact opposite, tanking in the 24 man raids is pretty much free exp. Then again, I approach the raid roulette with fairly low expectations. They usually run fairly smooth or it's a mess.

However, just communicate with the other tanks, stay in your enmity stance, and use your enmity combo at the beginning and you'll do fine.

Sorry, I meant to come back and respond to the answers I've gotten a lot sooner then I did, but reasons happened and I didn't. But I'm here now! Just going to go over everything. This is going to be a really big post so I'm going to put each individual response in a spoiler to hopefully reduce the clutter some. With any luck the spoiler tags work. Not very familiar with the forum yet. Also sorry for being a little too wordy, I talk a lot, heh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

I would generally not advise leaving tank stance in 24 player content becuase you cannot see other people's agro, unless I've been missing something for a long time.

---

Huh, as silly/stupid as this is going sound, I kinda didn't actually think staying in tank stance in the 24 mans was considered acceptable. Most people I talk to about tanking insist that I need to only use Shield Oath for pulling large amounts of trash and the pull on bosses until I establish hate, otherwise stay in Sword Oath, for everything. That's good to know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

However, after your initial threat combo (two if you feel insecure) I would just start running through your dps combo and throw in a rage of halone once in awhile if you "feel" like you need it. There is definately a point at which you can leave tank stance, I've just had so many OT tank stance heros that I generally try to just OT, or more likely run dps or healer for these things.

---

This is good advice. I'll try that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Also, get real familiar with the provoke and ultimatum animations. You'll see alot of people who like to provoke and try to steal your aggro.

None of that helps you to figure out your aggro, but it will atleast help you tell the difference between being trolled and needing more aggro combo.

---

Hah, now that you mention it, I don't think I've ever seen Ultimatum be used, or at least I think I haven't. I wouldn't know what it looks like to know if it was used. I'll have to equip it and use it just to see what it looks like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

If you do choose to leave tank stance, just remember, it is fundamentally the same thing as a light party or full party content. If dps and healers are using their aggro manipulation you should have no trouble doing what you do in other content, but unfortunately you need to trust that they are using these tools rather than being able to see them.

---

Understood. Probably a good idea to just stay in Shield Oath then, I don't really trust the Alliance Raid Roulette randoms to do much of anything after how much I've done the raids as other roles, heh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galgarion

Just pay attention to the boss' name on your enemy list. The faster the red dot blinks, the closer you are to losing threat. When that happens, switch to shield oath and whack your target a few times until the dot is a nice solid red, then go back to dpsing.

---

I actually did not realize that the red dot did that. I saw it blinking before, I just assumed it normally always did that. That's really helpful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

So I'll provoke roughly near the mechanic, where i know the boss is casting, so the MT can still hold hate, as I continue to DPS as an OT. They go down, and I'm practically where they were in threat. Though some tanks view it as an attempt to MT mid fight, while they are still tanking.

---

Now that you mention it, I probably should ask about this. I've never actually gotten into content as my tank where a tank swap was necessary, so this is something I don't know about. When you provoke, does the boss immediately turn to smack you, or does it stay on the other tank since it just brings you to their level of hate, but not over, until you perform an action of some sort? Assuming neither tank has dots on the boss, that is. This seems like an important distinction to make in such an event as you described. Like, if I wanted to gain my co-tank's level of hate, but not the bosses' attention, I just voke and then don't do anything for a little bit, all is good?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Linx0r

In 24 mans ask who is mt. If know one replies , take the boss in your tank stance, do an agro combo then switch to dps. If the other tanks are any good they will be in dps mode anyway. So many times I see tanks playing tug of war because I dunno, its an ego thing. Best way, say in alliance chat or ask who is mt or say you want to and just tank the boss like a pro. So many people just go in and you see these tank tug of wars and then adds get missed and etc. Bottom line , bring it up in alliance chat to see who is mt. If you don’t handle your alliance area adds appropriately. If you get into a tug of war, just bail. Let the douche tank have it. You are a better tank for communicating

---

Yeah I learned a LONG time ago when I was tanking as a Death Knight in WoW(Where you didn't have to worry about hate at all. One Blood Boil and it was impossible take hate from me except for the OT.), that competing with my co-tank for hate simply means that everyone in the raid loses. I never engage in a tank-tug-of-war. So far I've been going into the raids and just checking who has what stance on. If neither has their tank stance on, I put on Shield Oath and start MT'ing, if one of them has their tank stance on, I put on Sword Oath and OT. Your method seems better though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaTi

Basically that’s all the good advice OP.
Only thing I’d add and it kind of touches on points made above. If you do go the route of letting a tug of war tank have it, just be prepared to take it back on short notice. Far too often have I seen tug of war types either drop like a damp noodle suddenly or switch to DPS stance and shirk the first thing they see just to offload the enmity they now have. 24 mans have a weird little environment like that!

---

I haven't run into this yet, but I would definitely just say "Oh this guy wants to tank the boss. Sword Oath GO!" Though........wait, people actually do that? They stay in their tank stance and then go "OCRAP I GOT AGG!" *shirk, DPS stance*? That's just sad, lol, good heads up there. I guess my response should not actually be an insta-swap to Sword Oath then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

Gear is the biggest factor. For example, you can't have a silly i310 tank in rabanastre who does his usual "one or two hate combos" at the start and try to cruise the whole fight in dps stance. It simply won't work that way! Simply put, if your gear's up to snuff for the tier and you know how to do big dps as a tank, you can rest assured your position as MT is secured even while out of tank stance.

If for whatever reason you lose hate after following the above, then the blame's just not on you. It's on the OT who sat in tank stance, or the healer who doesn't know how to avoid AoE overheal, or the stupid dps that are too lazy to use diversion. In either case, it's a win-win situation. You either get to be a dps-stance MT rockstar, or you get to yell at people's dumb mistakes.

---

When I first started doing Alliance Raid Roulette at 50, I knew my gear probably wasn't at the isync level just being in the HW level 50 crafted set(At least, I don't think the level 50 HW crafted set is as high as the sync. Coil gear is better then that set), so I definitely let the other tanks have it. I had no intention of trying to tank when I'm at a lower ilvl for a raid then the healers are used to, cause I figured I'd get hit with burst and the healers wouldn't be prepared for it cause it doesn't normally hurt that much. Funny enough the first time I ever ran it I got paired with two WARs who were both in their tank stances, so I just hit Sword Oath and let them fight it out. I'll give Sword Oath tanking a try at some point after I get a little more confidence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Derio

Gear is a big factor.

Generally when I main tank as long as I am in tank stance and do a ranged pull I can go into my dps combo immediately.

However if you are undergeared you may have to open with a enmity combo but after that you should be fine

---

Woah, really? I've never pulled a thing without immediately using my enmity combo(and Circle of Scorn. Best ability ever.) after. I didn't think that the ranged pull actually generated a ton of hate, I thought it just made enough hate to keep it on you until you got a combo off on it, but not much longer. Can't say I'll try that one for awhile, but I'll keep it in mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Something else I've found out. Don't forget to check what stances the other tanks are in at the start of a fight. If they are both in Tank stance, just go DPS stance to keep it a two-way tug-of-war instead of a three-way which is even worse. But do be ready to grab aggro at all times if they don't know what they're doing.

---

Absolutely. I always do this when I enter a raid. So far if there's another person in a tank stance I tend to go into Sword Oath, but I do watch for adds on trash pulls like I'm supposed to, and flip on Shield Oath when they spawn. I've been ganked by a few too many clones in Syrcus Tower as other roles to let them run wild when I actually am a tank, lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pastahnak

If I pull and another tank feels like taking agro (either because I'm lower geared or they just want agro) I'll just shirk them and switch to off tank. But I'll generally just hang out in tank stance since there is so many people doing damage me being in dps stance isn't worth losing hate.

---

I'm terrible and haven't put Shirk on my role action bar yet. I really need to, I KNOW I need to, I just haven't yet. I know Shirkle Jerking is important, and I know I need to go look up how to do it properly(Shirkle Jerking is just hitting provoke and instantly shirking on your co-tank to ramp up his hate, isn't it?), I just forget to actually go do it, heh. That and I mostly tank 4 mans at this point to level them, and I figure Shirk isn't that useful to have in a 4 man. Where I don't have a co-tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delily

I have the exact opposite, tanking in the 24 man raids is pretty much free exp. Then again, I approach the raid roulette with fairly low expectations. They usually run fairly smooth or it's a mess.

However, just communicate with the other tanks, stay in your enmity stance, and use your enmity combo at the beginning and you'll do fine.

---

The free xp is definitely great, heh. That's mostly why I'm venturing into the Alliance Raid Roulette as a tank, actually. The experience of being a tank in a 24 man won't hurt either.

That's what it sounds like based on what everyone's said. Next time I get to main tank I'll do better. That, and maybe the WAR won't decide to put on Defiance without telling me between the trash pull and the boss, and fight me for hate on the Five-Headed Dragon. Stupid co-tank. If you wanna tank the boss, fine, just tell me first.

Thanks for the helpful tips and advice everyone, got a few concerns answered and learned a few things I didn't know about that should help maintain hate across alliances. Apologies for the length of the post again, heh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Linx0r

If you get into a tug of war, just bail. Let the douche tank have it. You are a better tank for communicating

---

This. So many times this happens even after I say ill MT. I just let the other person have it. I dunno, I think that some people take you saying "I'll MT" is your way of being demeaning to people or whatever. Just trying to smooth the run out lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galgarion

Just pay attention to the boss' name on your enemy list. The faster the red dot blinks, the closer you are to losing threat. When that happens, switch to shield oath and whack your target a few times until the dot is a nice solid red, then go back to dpsing.

---

Is this true!? Was this always the case?! I've never noticed this before LOL!