Unkillable healers

I just want to ask a simple question from the developers, to those who responsible for PvP balance.

I play a lot of Pvp (frontline roulette usually) because i just getting bored the same duty Roulette EX,60/70 and the rest of ,[thetankpulleverything0mechanicsrequired], same dungeons over and over again thing every day.
But im not come here to rage or flame,pick a fight etc...

SO i get to the point: whats this balance with the Healers? today me (MCH) and a BRD teammate caught up an enemy WHM, and we try to kill her for 5min...and we cant.. i used the correct best rotation for MCH, and the WHM just stand there (not even try to run away), regen and cure2 herself and we cant kill her for more than 5 min until she run out of MP.

Seriously the healers should be the most vulnerable role in pvp and the rest of the team should work together to protect them
this is ridiculous

I had a match in frontline roulette in shatter, it was 8v8v8, and maelstrom after getting stomped, switched to have 5 healers....yeah....attempting to go after them was a waste of time. So we had to get creative. We won, but it was just a bit ridiculous....

Healers do need to be looked at.

MCH and BRD burst (while one is notably quicker and easier than the other) would be more than enough to delete any healer, but you'd basically have to do it together. That instant wombo combo of damage would easily wipe out any healer. (Though I admit when I find one of those healers that want to try and tank through things, I VERY much enjoy forcing them to run dry).

Despite all the heat I'd take for saying it, making healer casts shorter AND setting healing potencies well above DPS damage potencies puts DPS at a natural loss, damage vs healing wise, which only emphasizes the need for effective cc and strong burst damage, something not as doable in 4.x PvP as it was in 3.x.

EDIT: Hit my post limit for the day, so I have to respond here, and this is directly to Crit:

First, I haven't been at all coy or subtle about why I dislike 4.x PvP. You can read just about any thread here. Second, you don't know me well enough to make a comment like you did. However, if you'd like to find out firsthand what I know and what I can do, I'm more than happy to accept all challenges.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

MCH and BRD burst (while one is notably quicker and easier than the other) would be more than enough to delete any healer, but you'd basically have to do it together. That instant wombo combo of damage would easily wipe out any healer. (Though I admit when I find one of those healers that want to try and tank through things, I VERY much enjoy forcing them to run dry).

Despite all the heat I'd take for saying it, making healer casts shorter AND setting healing potencies well above DPS damage potencies puts DPS at a natural loss, damage vs healing wise, which only emphasizes the need for effective cc and strong burst damage, something not as doable in 4.x PvP as it was in 3.x.

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Jesus now I know why you hate 4.x PvP, you don't know how to play it!!!!

Any melee + range/melee bursting together at the same time will kill something. End of discussion, this thread is unnecessary

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

MCH and BRD burst (while one is notably quicker and easier than the other) would be more than enough to delete any healer, but you'd basically have to do it together.

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Well, you have 2 seconds of Barrel overload stun to deal 14000 damage, after that the OGCD heals come in (which can't be silenced).

Barrage/Pitch Perfect is 2k. Empyreal Arrow 1k. Sidewinder 1,5k. Dots 750. Straight Shot 1k. Total Damage you can do in that time: 6250.
MCH... roundabout math: Overload 1k, BTE 3k, Heated Clean Shot 1,75k. Let's say two GCDs due to pre-load and put it at 7000. With Troubadour and Overheat buffs and absolutely perfect coordination and setup and the healer not using a shield/defense buff or concentration beforehand, nor using Purify to get out earlier, that could work, provided the healer doesn't have a tank helping him that is capable of just as much coordination.

I wouldn't say it's "more than enough", though. You just barely make it.

As for the topic, in general, well... they don't even attempt to balance healers and pretty much admitted to it in a roundabout way. They instead purposely (over)tune them to make them more popular, likely in another attempt to salvage their "premium" mode Feast, which has been plagued with a lack of healers since the dawn of time.

It's unlikely to change anytime soon, so far most of their decisions (Astragalos aside) actually seem to go into the opposite direction, so I'd say: Don't like it? Don't play it. The devs have no intention to balance power, they want a balanced population.

^^^
Yeah hyperbole aside from my statement too, two dps can't kill anything 100% of the time, the damage or support (soul survivor/cc) from the tank is also necessary to guarantee kills

But 2 dps could just farm a ranged over and over

a bard and a mch not being able to take down a healer, you lack coordination, experience and knowledge. keep practice up

I think the main issue is the mana cost who are too low especially for the bigger heals.
I don't think it is too much of a problem that a healer can overheal 2 dps by using his stronger moves., but that should be temporary and not a sustainable strategy. 5min doesn't sound very temporary to me.

I think making healer run oom should be much easier, they're just too sustainable it's annoying.

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Originally Posted by Crit

^^^
Yeah hyperbole aside from my statement too, two dps can't kill anything 100% of the time, the damage or support (soul survivor/cc) from the tank is also necessary to guarantee kills

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The real problem with the OP is BRD + MCH. They're fully mobile, so their DPS is lower. Try using a BLM or something.

It is probably easier understand healer, if you play one yourself and play feast. After gold rank you may notice it is not that easy keep everybody alive anymore.

Tfw when I see you saying healer is unkillable based on FL only with random ranged dps

After witnessing a healer tank 5 people and live all I can say is... There is a reason why I won't PvP beyond 1 daily duty.

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Originally Posted by XovanPrince

After witnessing a healer tank 5 people and live all I can say is... There is a reason why I won't PvP beyond 1 daily duty.

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There’s a reason why healers hate random dps like that

I feel like that biggest issue is that dealing with numerous healers requires an amount of coordination that is unlikely to be found in many random groups. There's not a whole lot of disadvantages for healers to overcome. I think instant cast heals should be removed - that way if a healer wishes to heal, they need to stand still and cast. It's already a major pain as certain classes to get up and close to a foe and remain in melee range, so allowing healers to easily mend themselves and run around pillars in circles is frustrating. A lot more so if there's multiple healers involved.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think instant cast heals should be removed.

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Only one instant cast per healer. WHM specifically doesn't really have anything great besides Benediction which is on the longest cooldown out of the 3. Sure Assize brings back health but not enough to stay up.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

WHM specifically doesn't really have anything great besides Benediction which is on the longest cooldown out of the 3.

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Divine Benison, while a shield rather than a heal, is more potent than a Lustrate and about as potent as two DPS GCDs. Since everyone has more than 10k max HP, 25% of that is over 2,5k. On a healer, it's a 3,5k health buffer. It's also their shortest CD.

The effective health gained through that is only temporary, but the difference between temporary health and permanent health only matters if you're not being attacked. If the shield breaks from damage, it's the same as if you had healed yourself for 3,5k. Adlo on Scholar works by the same principle with 2500 heal upfront and a 2500 shield amounting to 5000 total and thus the same as Bene II and Cure II.

AST is probably the funniest, as lightspeed makes all casts instant. For OGCDs, they got Lady of Crows (which heals 2500 upfront + 5000 HoT) and Essential Dignity. The prior is not reliable due to RNG, but at 7500 total potency, it prooobably shouldn't be ignored entirely.

(Numbers taken from the job guide, I'm too lazy to hop ingame to check if they're outdated)

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Originally Posted by Zojha

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Agreed, there are other variables. But the root of the problem is a healer can sit there and cast and LOL at anyone attacking them.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

It is probably easier understand healer, if you play one yourself and play feast. After gold rank you may notice it is not that easy keep everybody alive anymore.

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That would be some next level of BS if the healer would be able to heal entire team in fight and not let anyone to go down.

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Originally Posted by kyomaZZ

SO i get to the point: whats this balance with the Healers? today me (MCH) and a BRD teammate caught up an enemy WHM, and we try to kill her for 5min...and we cant.. i used the correct best rotation for MCH, and the WHM just stand there (not even try to run away), regen and cure2 herself and we cant kill her for more than 5 min until she run out of MP.

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Healers are killable. Problem is... most casual players don't know how to do it.

To kill a healer in large scale PvP, all it takes are two to three DPS' to do a coordinated burst with a total damage potency exceeding 14000 as instantaneously as possible (around 2-3 seconds).

I also suggest that if your co-DPS doesn't know how to coordinate with you, simply ignore that WHM and go after more important objectives.

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Originally Posted by Astrophysx

Healers are killable. Problem is... most casual players don't know how to do it.

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this is sort of true, but misses the point - even if you do know how to do it, the mechanical execution required is out of sync with what healers are doing.

for example, i just got out of a seal rock where both enemy teams had three healers. is it possible to kill three enemy healers simultaneously? i guess probably, yeah, but you're asking eight strangers to coordinate perfectly with each other to offset any one of three people just pushing their ogcd heal. this is in frontlines, obviously. the real issue arises when you can bring in multiple healers.

as a whole, i think individual healers operate fine. their ogcds could probably be tweaked a bit, and i think the windows you need to kill in are a little too tight, but these tweaks still wouldn't offset the fact you're expecting nearly perfect mechanical execution from two strangers who probably aren't talking to kill one guy who is just pressing '2'.

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Originally Posted by Astrophysx

Healers are killable. Problem is... most casual players don't know how to do it.

To kill a healer in large scale PvP, all it takes are two to three DPS' to do a coordinated burst with a total damage potency exceeding 14000 as instantaneously as possible (around 2-3 seconds).

I also suggest that if your co-DPS doesn't know how to coordinate with you, simply ignore that WHM and go after more important objectives.

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Only if their team is sleeping, because they wont let them focus their healer so easly.
At least i do as DRK with loads of CC i get, its literally impossible to kill my healer or me in a 2 vs 3 fight with dps.

The problem here and coordination and frontlines. You aren't going to get decent coordination in FL without a premade. It just won't happen. Additionally, you might be able to kill A healer, but you aren't going to kill one with 4 others around. You'd have to burn through roughly 10k HP per GCD to get through all that with your uncoordinated FL PUG. Good luck!

I don't really know much about Pvp, only rank 40 on both Maelstrom and Flames.
What I do know is that I just played the frontline that got me to the edge of desperation.

I just witnessed 6 people:
- 1 DRK - me
- 2 summoners
- 1 bard
- 1 redM
- 1 machinist

being unable to kill a single Astro for over 2 minutes 6 vs 1, until 2 more Maelstroms spawned and managed to kill all 6 of us.
Maelstrom had only 1 single healer and she died 1 time during the whole game despite being marked and focused by both adders and flames.

I don't know if that guy was cheating or not, but I am leveling my AST and I'll give people hell until all the community on Loisoix starts crying for equality (or until all start playing AST in frontlines).

And to reply in advance to the 'learn to play' stuff:
I usually kill solo on my DRK anything (including other DRKs) except MCH, good Ninja or healing class.

Not only healers are pure cancer in this game pvp.
Machinists and bards are along with them, its really stupid majority of the pvpers only plays those 2 classes, the balance sucks so bad in this game, its non existent.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Not only healers are pure cancer in this game pvp.
Machinists and bards are along with them, its really stupid majority of the pvpers only plays those 2 classes, the balance sucks so bad in this game, its non existent.

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Yes, I am agree that Bard and Machinists buff is not warrant, especially Machiensts need to tune down on its burst (wildfire need to be adjust, make it not sync with between the eye) .
These two jobs are not helping PvP community to grow, no meele players are going to enjoy the PvP

healers aren't hard to kill at all, just burst at the same time... also wtf 6 people and still couldn't kill a LONELY ast???? jfc 4.x still shows that skill gap

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Originally Posted by Crit

healers aren't hard to kill at all, just burst at the same time... also wtf 6 people and still couldn't kill a LONELY ast???? jfc 4.x still shows that skill gap

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Ooohh... So those where the six players that couldn't kill me. O.o

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Originally Posted by Belev

I just witnessed 6 people:
- 1 DRK - me
- 2 summoners
- 1 bard
- 1 redM
- 1 machinist

being unable to kill a single Astro for over 2 minutes 6 vs 1, until 2 more Maelstroms spawned and managed to kill all 6 of us.
Maelstrom had only 1 single healer and she died 1 time during the whole game despite being marked and focused by both adders and flames.

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It is either you or your Machinest.
It is either you trigger happy the stun on healer so Machinest can not process the burst combo or your machinest didnt even know anything about the combo.
It is usually only requires Machinest to process burst combo with Bard follow up with silence and barrage to kill a healer on the Frontline

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Originally Posted by Belev

I just witnessed 6 people:
- 1 DRK - me
- 2 summoners
- 1 bard
- 1 redM
- 1 machinist

being unable to kill a single Astro for over 2 minutes 6 vs 1, until 2 more Maelstroms spawned and managed to kill all 6 of us.
Maelstrom had only 1 single healer and she died 1 time during the whole game despite being marked and focused by both adders and flames.

I don't know if that guy was cheating or not, but I am leveling my AST and I'll give people hell until all the community on Loisoix starts crying for equality (or until all start playing AST in frontlines).

And to reply in advance to the 'learn to play' stuff:
I usually kill solo on my DRK anything (including other DRKs) except MCH, good Ninja or healing class.

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The fact you and the other 5 can't kill a healer is not that healers are overpowered but all 6 of you are terrible. BIG FACTS. Also, this game is balanced around Comp Feast not FL.

Lol healers absolutely do NOT need a nerf.

First, any premade is going to target them and melt them like butter in a matter of 5 seconds or less. So nerf the class that we target and kill quickly? Makes no sense. In fact I would expect them to be buffed before nerfed. I honestly feel bad for them lately.

Most mael players will as well. Its the cowards that run from people that kill this. omg its people, run for your life! Get to base and do nothing for NO reason. No... stop it. And worse yet stop publically announcing your cowardice in chat by asking everyone else to join you at base and sit there being non productive.

1 War holmgangs, and 2 melees assisting will drop one in a heartbeat. Having a backup healer wont matter much during that. If they dont they are not good melee dps. Heartbeat as in 5-7 seconds. half that for battle high.

Second, mch and brd are insanely weak in 24 person matches. I used to main mch, but only in 72s to keep battle high the whole time. I still will, but again, only in 72s.

As OP stated they cant kill one. Do yourself a favor and do NOT use mch/brd in 24 person matches. Youre killing the group.

This is why more and more premades are popping up. Between people looking for carries cause they suck, and either gc swap or freelance, and others insisting on using jobs that suck even if youre a master at the role, the people that want to win are sick of it. So now all of those people get to deal with pre mades wiping up this bad skilled or bad job picked trash. Why bring this up? Because people that cant even kill a healer are the ones doing it so it applies.

While skill of the bard he played with is unknown the issue isnt the healer, its that brd and mch would need a slight buff for average players. Two skilled players could but would it be a few seconds? No, and then you have to think about perfect timing again if there is a second one, and thats what determines winning or losing. Throw 3 dif premades at each other and now its that + strategy.

Throw 2 Nin’s at one healer and it will melt so fast its not even funny regardless of the healers skill level. There are a lot of valid points here but at the end of the day if you place 2 master skilled ninas vs one healer, and two ranged dps vs another healer, the melee are going to win, get battle highs first, and drop your team out of the run in the big picture.

I know this because weve been doing it in 95% of our FL matches for the past few weeks, coming back to pvp again. Living proof.

Also healers, the premades apologize for making things crappy lately. Thank the skill-less band wagoners.

If you blindly mash buttons against a healer, especially solo, you're not going to have a good time. At that point it's a good idea to do some research about how to play jobs properly and how they interact with each other.

If you're on a job with proper CC, you can solo a healer if you catch them off guard.

Realistically though, if one person could solo a healer we would have much less healers running around. Are YOU going to heal when a DPS can look at you and melt you? Doubt it. It's already hard enough as is to get randoms to go healer, yet everyone seems to think they're OP. Seems like a disconnect here.

To everyone who thinks healers are OP: go healer for a few games. You will quickly learn how to properly go against one, and you will quickly realize that healers are from from OP.

In order to CONSISTENTLY kill healers, CC must be utilized properly and DPS/Tanks need to focus the same target. Try this macro out.

/p "Attacking Marked Target on 1"<wait.1>
/mk attack1
/mk attack5 <t> <wait.1>
/mk attack4 <attack5> <wait.1>
/mk attack3 <attack4> <wait.1>
/mk attack2 <attack3> <wait.1>
/mk attack1 <attack2> <wait.1>

Again, if healers could be melted instantly by anyone, even those who don't understand the basics, no one will play healer.

As it is it stands now it will take:
-1 skilled DPS with CC to kill an inexperienced healer
- multiple (2DPS and a tank or so) experienced folks to take out a experienced healer
- multiple inexperienced DPS to take out an inexperienced healer.

That's heavily simplified but gives an idea of balance around healer.

Remember that healers don't have AoE healing. Yeah, there are things like Assize and Synastry, but most healers will panic if lots of people are dropping. A tactic I like to do is slowly chip away at a healer, keep them high enough that they feel safe to heal other people. When the healer is at about 20% HP do your burst. This is as a SOLO player. With the macro above you will get at least one other person bursting with you which should lead to a kill.

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Originally Posted by UnrealTai

Also healers, the premades apologize for making things crappy lately. Thank the skill-less band wagoners.

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nah i keep thank whoever is in charge of pvp , i thank him every time i read a patch notes.

I miss being a healer in HW. It was easier to keep others alive whereas it was a little harder to keep yourself alive, if you used your full kit in the feast as healer in HW, you would quickly win against a healer who didn't. I used to play a lot of diurnal Ast, but have switched to WHM in SB.