Raid Progression Check points

Dear Reader,

I would like to suggest that the developers deeply consider adding check points to savage content. While I understand the game dev team comes from Japan, and the Japanese people are extremely courteous to the time and energy of others...here in America, that's not the same. For over a week, I've spent nearly 15+ game hours in CLEAR parties trying to beat Sigmascape 1.0 Savage. Please note the emphasis on clear. Every single time, 2 or 3 players will come to the party and attempt to get carried.

We have a wonderful system in place for those who have already completed the duty...but no protection for those who just want to beat the content with people who took the time to practice. Yes we have wonderful people who lead practice teams...I did that once I unlocked it...but this abuse is really unnecessary. Please consider this option

There is no need for checkpoints in Savage. That being said, V4S and V8S have checkpoints once you unlock the “Savage extra” portion of their fights (i.e., once you kill Exdeath in V4S and successfully get to Neo Exdeath, the instance will restart with Neo present for the remainder of the lockout; same thing with Kefka/Winged Kefka in V8S as far as I am aware).

If people are joining clear groups that have no business being in there (i.e., the party is listed as a clear party for those who have been to or seen enrage multiple times, and someone joined with zero experience in the fight), then it falls to the party leader to enforce the rules of their PF. V5S is not long enough, nor difficult enough, to warrant checkpoints within the fight. If people aren’t pulling their weight and/or causing multiple wipes to the same thing over and over again, the party leader needs to either remove them, or you should bounce and find a different PF with a leader that will enforce their PF rules.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If people are joining clear groups that have no business being in there (i.e., the party is listed as a clear party for those who have been to or seen enrage multiple times, and someone joined with zero experience in the fight), then it falls to the party leader to enforce the rules of their PF. V5S is not long enough, nor difficult enough, to warrant checkpoints within the fight. If people aren’t pulling their weight and/or causing multiple wipes to the same thing over and over again, the party leader needs to either remove them, or you should bounce and find a different PF with a leader that will enforce their PF rules.

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Checkpoints within a fight might not work mid battle per se. but checkpoints as a whole could be great and its something that's been suggested multiple times.

All it really needs is like 3 simple checks and lock out various queue options if the answer to any is no.
A: Have you entered the fight before?
B: Have you made it to the phase 3?
C: Have you got the boss down to lower than 10%?

If the answer is to A is no then the only option you or the party leader have is a practice party for the first phase within raid finder.
If the answer to A is yes but B is no then you can queue phase 1 learning parties.
If the answer to B is yes but C is no then you can queue a phase 1 or 3 learning party.
And can only queue a "clear party" if you or all members have seen lower than 10% boss HP.

This could be a really helpful tool as it would prevent people from joining the wrong parties. in a similar fashion to the duty completion check box they added to party finder groups not so long ago. If you created a clear party with that check box ticked then anyone who had not seen 10% HP on the boss could not join your party.

would also help raid finder groups as well. nothing worse than queieng a fight in raid finder only to find a bunch of people who have never entered before have selected the duty completion option instead of practice...

if it falls to the party leader to kick people out for performing badly or joining the wrong party the problem there is that it's generally to late and everyone elses time has already been wastred.... a check point style thing would prevent this before it happens in the same way the duty completion requirement does.

it wouldn't be perfect obviously the same way the duty completion one isn't 8 people who have completed a duty can form a farm party and it can still fail miserably. but it does at least increase the likelihood of a group being successful

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Checkpoints within a fight might not work mid battle per se. but checkpoints as a whole could be great and its something that's been suggested multiple times.

All it really needs is like 3 simple checks:- and lock out various options if the answer to any is no.
A: have you entered the fight before?
B: have you made it to the phase 3?
C: have you got the boss down to lower than 10%?

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I was under the impression OP was referring to checkpoints within a fight, like what people were suggesting for A6S’ Robot Party and Ultimate; not checkpoints in regards to personal progression per player, so apologies to the OP if that was what they meant.

While these would be wonderful, I’m not sure how the devs would code them into the fight. As it stands now, I think the only flag they have is: fight cleared? Yes/No. They would have to implement multiple flags for this to work.

Would they do it by phases (e.g., Phase 1, Phase 2, Phase 3, etc.) or by a boss’ HP percentage (e.g., 75%, 50%, 25%, etc.)? I feel like both could be tricky to implement, though I certainly wouldn’t be against the implementation for PF requirements.

Using the example of V5S, I suppose if they were to divide it by phases, they could do something like:
—Phase 1: Beginning to add phase (generally this is 100% ~ 60% with a decent group)
—Phase 2: Adds / Doom Chimney / Throttle & Putrid Passenger Phase
—Phase 3: Post-Putrid Passenger Phase (since the mechanics just repeat from this point forward until enrage, albeit in a faster fashion).


That being said, I still stand by my original point: if a person joins a PF and doesn’t have any business being in there, a party leader should enforce their own rules. They are more than within their power to do so, and shouldn’t feel “bad” if they have to kick a person that is holding back a group (or a person that joined a clear/farm and had never stepped foot into the fight).

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Originally Posted by Dzian

your post

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Ty for this post. I'm sorry Hyo for not being specific about what I would like to see. I think having an option like this would be super easy to code in. I don't want folks to be able to just step into the final phase...but form a group of people who have all been to the final phase and do the entire encounter.

I wish it were as simple as just enforcing the rules though...but for my server it doesn't solve the problem.

You open a PF for a fight. You wait for it to fill. Lets say it takes 10 minutes to fill up. You get everyone set on a ready check, and you enter the encounter. Lets say another 3-5 minutes for that to happen. You get in, and you place markers and call out assignments. Another 5 minutes can pass before the very first pull. You do the pull and someone is bad, it takes 3-5 minutes on the pull til wipe is called. No one wants to be a dick so you tell them they have one more chance to get it right. You do it again and the same thing happens so you leave and kick them. By now 30 minutes have passed. You go back into PF looking for another person. Fill them in go in and then find out someone has never seen phase 2 or 3 and keep getting you killed. You leave that time and now a whole hour + has passed. People are annoyed, so they may leave...but you have a good group, so you open up PF one more time and get another player to replace the one that was wiping you at the end...and lo and behold that player has never seen phase 1. Your group gets pissed and leaves...and you lost an hour+ because of people.

that's the M in MMO so many ppl. also i love it when ppl say " I think having an option like this would be super easy to code in." armchair coders amirite

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

That being said, I still stand by my original point: if a person joins a PF and doesn’t have any business being in there, a party leader should enforce their own rules. They are more than within their power to do so, and shouldn’t feel “bad” if they have to kick a person that is holding back a group (or a person that joined a clear/farm and had never stepped foot into the fight).

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I don't disagree the party leader should do that when necessary

the problem with that though is that if it gets to that stage where the party leader has to kick someone who clearly shouldn't be there for making so many mistakes. then chances are they've already wasted a good deal of everyone elses time..

a checkpoint style thing would go a long way to prevent that and thus result in less wasted time for everyone by preventing that time waster from joining in the first place.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

that's the M in MMO so many ppl. also i love it when ppl say " I think having an option like this would be super easy to code in." armchair coders amirite

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In your attempt to be witty, you fail to grasp that the system to do this is already in place...The achievement system. Notice how when you first unmap an entire dungeon, you get an achievement? Notice when you finish a fight you get an achievement? Hell, it even keeps track when you've done the fight 5-10-15 times... Setting up markers to flag your achievement, and calling on that to help integrate this system is all it would take. At this point, they already have a system that allows players to prevent people who haven't cleared the fight from joining. Why does this tidbit sound so complicated to some?

if you were dead from 90% to 50% would it still count you getting the achievement? probably. does that mean you qualify to meet the checkpoint? no. but how will the system determine this? still ripe for abuse and bad players.

I understand how frustrating it can be for you to know the fight, but can't clear it because you had bad parties.

However, introducing checkpoints would kill these raids.
You would not have to worry about performing well for the whole duration of the fight, people would probably even fail mechanics but still pass it. In the end, there would be even less player who could actually clear those raids because they could "clear" it by being dead, but it wouldn't be important because of checkpoints.

Failing makes you learn from your mistakes. You learn what you must do, and doing the same part of the battle over and over again make it being easier to pass until the next part when the same learning scenario occurs again.
That's the whole point of raiding. Failing, learning, optimizing, clearing, and giving all you can.

With checkpoints, a death would be meaningless and wouldn't encourage to prevent failures.

If people join "clear pfs" but keep failing every mechanics over and over again, or have not the expected dps to do it, that means they have nothing to do in here and need more training and experience.
They unfortunately have to be kicked for missing the requirement the pf previously asked for.
That's not a jerk or elitism move. That's just logical.

You are supposed to join parties that match your current progression. Not being the burden of it.

Wow, now I remember why I avoid these forums like the plague. How about we introduce a system where someone can make a simple request without people who find no use coming in and trying to kill it.

God forbid that a bad player or two slips through the funnel Dr Who. Yes, a player who died and stayed dead for the entire encounter can get a clear....it can HAPPEN NOW. Did you complain when they added the current system in? There have been cases of bad players being carried through an encounter, and those players can sign up the next week under Duty Complete parties and still be bad. Should we Toss that system out?

All I'm asking for is for some form of protection for people who actually invest time and energy into learning a fight. I don't have 16 hours a week to wipe on the same mechanic because someone can't read, or wish to sneak into a group and get carried. You guys may be able to do that, but I don't and want some form of protection against it.

This wouldn't KILL the raid. Does Duty Complete kill raiding? This is nothing more but a modified version of Duty Complete. I understand bad players will make it through the funnel, but the less that make it, the better for the people who spent the time to learn the encounter.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I understand how frustrating it can be for you to know the fight, but can't clear it because you had bad parties.

However, introducing checkpoints would kill these raids.
You would not have to worry about performing well for the whole duration of the fight, people would probably even fail mechanics but still pass it. In the end, there would be even less player who could actually clear those raids because they could "clear" it by being dead, but it wouldn't be important because of checkpoints.

Failing makes you learn from your mistakes. You learn what you must do, and doing the same part of the battle over and over again make it being easier to pass until the next part when the same learning scenario occurs again.
That's the whole point of raiding. Failing, learning, optimizing, clearing, and giving all you can.

With checkpoints, a death would be meaningless and wouldn't encourage to prevent failures.

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You'd still have to do the whole of the fight even with a checkpoint system like the one suggested in this thread. So performing well fornthe whole fight would matter just as much as it does now.

We do not want a system where players can begin the fight in phase 3 for example if they've made it that far. That's ridiculous.

What's being asked for is a working filter on party finder / raid finder that prevents people who havent made it to a specific point in the fight from joining your party. (Note this means at the stage the party is being formed so hasn't actually entered the content yet)

Raid finder already has these options but sadly no restrictions in place. So what happens is first timers queue "duty completion" instead of "practice" even though it's there first time entering the instance and then waste the time of everyone else in the party.

In those circumstance those players should only be able to join "practice" group's. And the duty completion option should be locked. Until those players have made it to a specified point within the fight.

I should work like that duty completion box on a fam party. If someone hasn't cleared the duty they cannot join that party. Progression should be the same kinda thing.

Stop people's time being wasted before the time waster joins not after he's wiped everyone 2 or 3 times and the whole group disbands.

So if I created a clear party for v6s for example. And you had never entered v6s before you could not join that party at all the system would not let you. That does not mean that the 8 people in that party would start from phase 3 or anything. They'd still have to do the whole fight. It would just prevent that time waster from joining a party he isn't ready for.