[Request] Please add to the partyfinder a "Stone-Sea-Sky" requirement option

At least for Savage content.

I did look into different party finder groups this week.

It was always the same.

7 people where not perfect, but good enough...

... but the 8th performed so utterly bad, so that the duty failed at the end of the timer and the party disbanded.

It will not bring an instant win. But it will noticeable increase the chance of finishing a duty.

I always hoped this was their intention eventually. I keep hoping they add it. This is more important than an ilvl requirment on a PF. I've seen people with great gear do terrible at their job and vice versa.

Yeah, though I haven't done SSS myself (I never got round to unlocking it), I can see both sides and probably skew more in favour of it. But, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. What's to stop someone doing SSS, beating it, and then just chilling out and not trying in the actual party? Could this be why they haven't added it? And what could be done to shield this from happening? Don't get me wrong, I want this added myself (and I really should go unlock SSS at some point), but I want to open up the floor to opposing ideas and help us find a solution for the problems that could occur.

as far as i understand, with limited experience with Stone, Sky, Sea... isnt it limited to HW trial difficulty only?

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

as far as i understand, with limited experience with Stone, Sky, Sea... isnt it limited to HW trial difficulty only?

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There is one for 4.0 content right outside Rhalgr's Reach.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

as far as i understand, with limited experience with Stone, Sky, Sea... isnt it limited to HW trial difficulty only?

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There's two areas with SSS dummies: The first being unlocked in Idyllshire for the HW trials, and the second at Rhalgr's Reach for the SB trials. You have to unlock the HW SSS dummies before the SB ones, of course.

SSS is an indicator of raw DPS ability, it does not take into account mechanics, positionals or party contributions that are integral parts of Savage raiding. While it is a decent indicator that you have the DPS to successfully complete the instance, it does nothing to show that you have the mechanical skill to do so and as such is useless in indicating a good player from a bad one.

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Originally Posted by ChaoticCrimson

There's two areas with SSS dummies: The first being unlocked in Idyllshire for the HW trials, and the second at Rhalgr's Reach for the SB trials. You have to unlock the HW SSS dummies before the SB ones, of course.

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Thanks, the consolegameswiki page is not up-to-date

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Originally Posted by Malzian

SSS is an indicator of raw DPS ability, it does not take into account mechanics, positionals or party contributions that are integral parts of Savage raiding. While it is a decent indicator that you have the DPS to successfully complete the instance, it does nothing to show that you have the mechanical skill to do so and as such is useless in indicating a good player from a bad one.

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But...
If someone can't complete the SSS for the trial...

Wouldn't that mean they aren't proficient enough with their job to be queueing into that content in the first place?


That seems like a fair benchmark to set as a toggle...

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

Thanks, the consolegameswiki page is not up-to-date

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That is the absolute last info source you want to use for this game, trust me.

Also regarding this thread forcing a SSS clear requirement won't change anything. Even if you have the DPS capacity that doesn't mean you will employ it properly, and some people might just get lazy and want a carry anyway.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

SSS is an indicator of raw DPS ability, it does not take into account mechanics, positionals or party contributions that are integral parts of Savage raiding. While it is a decent indicator that you have the DPS to successfully complete the instance, it does nothing to show that you have the mechanical skill to do so and as such is useless in indicating a good player from a bad one.

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What SSS does is indicate a players potential dps and whether that potential is at the required standard to take on the content.
for this task SSS is a great tool. and making it a requirement would then block people that don't have that potential from joining party finder groups.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

Also regarding this thread forcing a SSS clear requirement won't change anything. Even if you have the DPS capacity that doesn't mean you will employ it properly, and some people might just get lazy and want a carry anyway.

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The amazing thing with this is how no one even bats an eyelid and it's apparently o perfectly acceptable for players to be that lazy. especially if that laziness is your reason to not add a check feature to pf groups.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

But, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. What's to stop someone doing SSS, beating it, and then just chilling out and not trying in the actual party? Could this be why they haven't added it? And what could be done to shield this from happening? Don't get me wrong, I want this added myself (and I really should go unlock SSS at some point), but I want to open up the floor to opposing ideas and help us find a solution for the problems that could occur.

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Well there are different reasons to not play well. Bad rotation, bad awareness with mechanics, playing badly on purpose and distractions. A dps dummy filter prevents the first kind from joining and makes the group a bit more likely to succeed. Of course it still wouldn't guarantee perfect parties.

I doubt that will fix anything just proves you can do 5k in a dummy but do like 3.2k in the actual content....I've only found SSS good for one thing which is perfecting a rotation and nothing more

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

But...
If someone can't complete the SSS for the trial...

Wouldn't that mean they aren't proficient enough with their job to be queueing into that content in the first place?


That seems like a fair benchmark to set as a toggle...

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Not exactly. Some jobs aren't tuned properly for SSS.

No point in me requiring a SSS clear if I'm going to watch the person that cleared it die ad infinitum to mechanics. To this end, checking numbers are only a half measure. Don't really see why people fail to understand this.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

That is the absolute last info source you want to use for this game, trust me.

Also regarding this thread forcing a SSS clear requirement won't change anything. Even if you have the DPS capacity that doesn't mean you will employ it properly, and some people might just get lazy and want a carry anyway.

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it was a cursory search, but duly noted. thank!

Devil's Advocate here.

You need to clear it with one job? so I can kill it with RDM and enter in PF as NIN and sucks.
You need to clear it for every job? so I have to do EVERYTIME and for EVERY JOB a dummy? rip.

I like the idea but it isn't a solution...

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

But...
If someone can't complete the SSS for the trial...

Wouldn't that mean they aren't proficient enough with their job to be queueing into that content in the first place?

That seems like a fair benchmark to set as a toggle...

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Originally Posted by Dzian

What SSS does is indicate a players potential dps and whether that potential is at the required standard to take on the content.
for this task SSS is a great tool. and making it a requirement would then block people that don't have that potential from joining party finder groups.

The amazing thing with this is how no one even bats an eyelid and it's apparently o perfectly acceptable for players to be that lazy. especially if that laziness is your reason to not add a check feature to pf groups.

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I would say that it depends on the percentage that was left when they failed it. If they failed at 50% there's nothing to be done for that, really, just gearing and rotation practice. However, a person that fails at 3-5% may still be fully qualified to do the content and that small deficiency will end up covered by things like Trick Attack, Chain Stratagem and the like. I have taken many people who couldn't fully clear the SSS dummies into Savage content and managed clears with perseverance and practice. It may be that some people just need that extra challenge to actually pull themselves up to.

SSS was never meant to be a definitive check for whether or not you can clear the content, it was designed to give you an idea of how well you might perform and to allow you to try out different rotations and strategies to optimize and get yourself as close to that goal as possible. Are some people out there lazy? Of course there are, and when you run into those people you simply don't have to play with them again. All this will do is take a tool that was introduced to give players a means to measure their own ability and skill and turn it into a weapon of exclusion. This does NOT help the raiding scene. All this does is further dis-incentivize people from even attempting the content, and the less people that are approaching the content the smaller the raiding community becomes.

SSS is useless for tanks and healers. The latter especially have to empty their MP and dps nonstop to meet the time. If you are so worried about others, learn to make statics.

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Originally Posted by Momita

I like the idea but it isn't a solution...

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Agreed. IMO, this problem can't be solved with a technical solution. It's a social problem of people expecting instant gratification without putting in the effort, which goes beyond FFXIV. So farc in this game:
1. People wanted min ilvl requirements to keep people out - didn't work
2. People wanted a DF to separate practice and farm groups. We got raid finder. Didn't work
3. People wanted to block those that haven't cleared from PF. Got that in 4.0, to my knowledge hasn't worked.

SSS might provide another barrier, but in the end, probably won't solve the problem.

Hey I'd be more than in support for that. Can't clear the bare minimum dummy fight? I don't want you in my groups. Ez pz.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

SSS is an indicator of raw DPS ability, it does not take into account mechanics, positionals or party contributions that are integral parts of Savage raiding. While it is a decent indicator that you have the DPS to successfully complete the instance, it does nothing to show that you have the mechanical skill to do so and as such is useless in indicating a good player from a bad one.

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And it's not exactly useful for testing healers and tanks. Having this as a requirement doesn't even make sense for half the party.

I'll tell you straight up a SSS achieve isn't going to net you what you want. I had to kick so many Gold plus WoW proving ground trash players it's not even funny...

Build a static, pugs are always going to be a grab bag at best.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

But...
If someone can't complete the SSS for the trial...

Wouldn't that mean they aren't proficient enough with their job to be queueing into that content in the first place?


That seems like a fair benchmark to set as a toggle...

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this, I support the idea. It is basically saying you know the basics enough to put out a lot of dps. If you can't even beat it, your not going to help the group beat savage with mechanics in place. It should be able to reorganize you cleared it with the job you are on.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

I'll tell you straight up a SSS achieve isn't going to net you what you want. I had to kick so many Gold plus WoW proving ground trash players it's not even funny...

Build a static, pugs are always going to be a grab bag at best.

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It does not matter, it filters out one of the problems:

person x is bad at rotations > fail
Person x is good with rotations but learning how to adapt it to the run < a much better start point.

Yes please. It would be reassuring to know that my party members can at least dps instead of getting people that can neither dps or do mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

It does not matter, it filters out one of the problems:

person x is bad at rotations > fail
Person x is good with rotations but learning how to adapt it to the run < a much better start point.

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Not really. All you're doing is giving someone a hoop to jump thru that you yourself did not see them jump through. You have no idea how hard it was for them to jump thru it or if they even did it themselves. All you know is they have a SSS. It doesn't mean they will try and not try to be carried instead.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Not really. All you're doing is giving someone a hoop to jump thru that you yourself did not see them jump through. You have no idea how hard it was for them to jump thru it or if they even did it themselves. All you know is they have a SSS. It doesn't mean they will try and not try to be carried instead.

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What you said does not counter what I said.

Can't clear the SSS dummy > guaranteed fail < this is filtered out.
Past the SSS dummy? much better chance/ start then ^ that

not hard concept.

Ofc we know it will not fix all fails, but it is a better start point, that is all people want.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

What you said does not counter what I said.

Can't clear the SSS dummy > guaranteed fail < this is filtered out.

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And you know they didn't have a friend do it for them, how exactly?

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

But...
If someone can't complete the SSS for the trial...

Wouldn't that mean they aren't proficient enough with their job to be queueing into that content in the first place?


That seems like a fair benchmark to set as a toggle...

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The funny thing is that SSS seems to be rather overturned. I remember clearing O1S with 4 DPS and 2 tanks of which only two could clear SSS for it. I highly doubt that the two healers we grabbed from the PF made up for that.

Likewise, I cleared Byakko EX while at i326. During the first phase I was second DPS in the team pulling over 4k. The second phase wasn't as hot for me due to someone failing to stack one of the times which resulted in my death (though it would have possibly been survivable if I had been i340ish + food). I'm doubtful that I can clear the SSS dummy for this with my current gear, but that clear team cleared it in a single shot anyway with 3 total deaths and about a minute to spare.

This does have me interested in if I can do the SSS for Byakko EX. Sadly it'll be just over a week before I can find out due to being out of town with limited/no internet.

By the way, I think you can actually summon your chocobo in SSS to add some DPS that you wouldn't have in the real deal. I know it's not much, but it's still something.

TL;DR - I suspect that a full team of people who can all clear SSS and can bring that full potential into the real deal will not only clear it, but do so with 2-4 minutes to spare. Probably a useful option for farm parties, but overkill for regular clears.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

And you know they didn't have a friend do it for them, how exactly?

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this isn't the point -.-

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Originally Posted by -BlueGreen-

The funny thing is that SSS seems to be rather overturned. I remember clearing O1S with 4 DPS and 2 tanks of which only two could clear SSS for it. I highly doubt that the two healers we grabbed from the PF made up for that.

Likewise, I cleared Byakko EX while at i326. During the first phase I was second DPS in the team pulling over 4k. The second phase wasn't as hot for me due to someone failing to stack one of the times which resulted in my death (though it would have possibly been survivable if I had been i340ish + food). I'm doubtful that I can clear the SSS dummy for this with my current gear, but that clear team cleared it in a single shot anyway with 3 total deaths and about a minute to spare.

This does have me interested in if I can do the SSS for Byakko EX. Sadly it'll be just over a week before I can find out due to being out of town with limited/no internet.

By the way, I think you can actually summon your chocobo in SSS to add some DPS that you wouldn't have in the real deal. I know it's not much, but it's still something.

TL;DR - I suspect that a full team of people who can all clear SSS and can bring that full potential into the real deal will not only clear it, but do so with 2-4 minutes to spare. Probably a useful option for farm parties, but overkill for regular clears.

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They do have different hp depending on the job so... and I am sure they can change it where chobobos can't damage it.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

this isn't the point -.-

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heh, it's the point I'm making. All your doing is adding an arbitrary tag that ultimately tells you nothing about the player because their is no way to know if it's legit or not. It may be against the ToS for someone to share their account info to clear it but so are a lot of things and people still do it.

The solution is to build a static. Then you'll know if your teammates are up to snuff. A SSS requirement won't help the pug life.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

heh, it's the point I'm making. All your doing is adding an arbitrary tag that ultimately tells you nothing about the player because their is no way to know if it's legit or not. It may be against the ToS for someone to share their account info to clear it but so are a lot of things and people still do it.

The solution is to build a static. Then you'll know if your teammates are up to snuff. A SSS requirement won't help the pug life.

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maybe next time you should be more clear with your posts, I had no idea you where talking about account sharing.

How come I do not see you fighting off that we should not have ilevel requirments for the plubic DF or the setting ni the PF? Hey it is "adding an arbitrary tag that ultimately tells you nothing about the player because their is no way to know if it's legit or not" since you can easily chat and bypass the ilevel requirements, like not having a good weapon but meet the average.

This is not a good argument against this idea, if people want to use "adding an arbitrary tag that ultimately tells you nothing about the player because their is no way to know if it's legit or not" they should be allowed to, *points to skip soar or disband meme*

Look how SE made you watch CS n MSQ roulette, so your "build a static" comment is also invalid. You can also apply such arguments to people asking better requirements for the DF (letting people enter runs where they are way too low in ilevel because the DF does not have requirements for all runs)

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

maybe next time you should be more clear with your posts, I had no idea you where talking about account sharing.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Not really. All you're doing is giving someone a hoop to jump thru that you yourself did not see them jump through. You have no idea how hard it was for them to jump thru it or if they even did it themselves. All you know is they have a SSS. It doesn't mean they will try and not try to be carried instead.

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*shrug* thought I was pretty clear about that.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

How come I do not see you fighting off that we should not have ilevel requirments for the plubic DF or the setting ni the PF? Hey it is "adding an arbitrary tag that ultimately tells you nothing about the player because their is no way to know if it's legit or not" since you can easily chat and bypass the ilevel requirements, like not having a good weapon but meet the average.

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Well, for one this thread is about SSS not item level. For another your average isn't "cheating" just because your weapon isn't good. It's just that, an average. One of the jobs of a good raid leader is to check the gear of newcomers to the group. Failure to do so is the raid leaders failure.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

This is not a good argument against this idea, if people want to use "adding an arbitrary tag that ultimately tells you nothing about the player because their is no way to know if it's legit or not" they should be allowed to, *points to skip soar or disband meme*

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Hey, if you want to use useless requirements for your groups I won't stop you, I was merely pointing out the flaw of it.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

Look how SE made you watch CS n MSQ roulette, so your "build a static" comment is also invalid. You can also apply such arguments to people asking better requirements for the DF (letting people enter runs where they are way too low in ilevel because the DF does not have requirements for all runs)

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Ok, you lost me here. How on earth does SE making the cut scenes in MSQ roulette unskippable make building a static invalid? With a static you should have a pool of people you can trust and rely on to progress thru content. With a pug you have no idea how good or bad the others are until you start.

MSQ CS's fit in this how?:confused: