SE... please (an honest DRK).

If you really want us DRK to stop playing, you just need to ask nicely instead of doing these half-assed changes.

I REFUSE TO PLAY ANY OTHER TANK! (Blood Gauge increased)

Don't get me wrong, PLD nerf was a joke, WAR changes looks awesome and I have no idea what some people are talking about...

I honestly hope that someone forgot to copy/paste the full DRK changes for 4.2, because that's NOT OK.

And since I don't even need Roulette bonuses with my DRK, you DPSs can all rot while waiting for queues!

Meanwhile... i'll just cry in some corner of Eureka while grinding my new DRK relics in 4.25 .

The Blood rage is real!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Etrius

Don't get me wrong, PLD nerf was a joke, WAR changes looks awesome and I have no idea what some people are talking about...

---

PLD nerf is indeed not really magnificent. They still keep shield bash tho! ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

WAR changes are actually... debatable, probably more a nerf than a buff.
They lose 10% dmg from Storm's Eye, yet potencies are buffed just around ~5-8% overall.
Burst windows are screwed now.

Why does TBN not give blood after its duration is over? They did this with Scholar, why not Dark Knight?

Please give back the Heavensward DRK

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheCount

Please give back the Heavensward DRK

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Yes, please.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

WAR changes are actually... debatable, probably more a nerf than a buff.
They lose 10% dmg from Storm's Eye, yet potencies are buffed just around ~5-8% overall.
Burst windows are screwed now.

---

But you forgot that there's no RNG involved on their bursts, its full DHCrit!
While my DRK was doing 8k damage Crits (never seen an actual DHCrit), I saw WARs doing 20k!

Now when you remove the RNG factor, they'll do like 16-18k 3/4x in a row!

I feel violated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Etrius

But you forgot that there's no RNG involved on their bursts, its full DHCrit!
While my DRK was doing 8k damage Crits (never seen an actual DHCrit), I saw WARs doing 20k!

Now when you remove the RNG factor, they'll do like 16-18k 3/4x in a row!

I feel violated.

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I feel violated since the time I saw how little tank classes there is and how poorly balanced those are around each other. I used to be a drk lover then I took a nerf arrow to the knee. Now I m war main and somehow I feel there might be "unfun" arrow incoming. I really got attached to war SB 4.1 and drk HW playstyle and it was in good spot imo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Etrius

But you forgot that there's no RNG involved on their bursts, its full DHCrit!
While my DRK was doing 8k damage Crits (never seen an actual DHCrit), I saw WARs doing 20k!

Now when you remove the RNG factor, they'll do like 16-18k 3/4x in a row!

---

A CritDH Fell Cleave could actually deal up to 33k dmg with raid buffs (yeah, that sounds insane, but it is EXTREMELY rare).

Well, now the burst window is only 10s from 20s, 90s CD reset up from 60s.

That means this burst window is off every 2nd time for raid buffs, AND most of the rotation is based on non-burst GCD.

But they did indeed nerf the non-burst damage with Storm's Eye nerf, and didn't fully compensate with those potency buffs.

In addition, zerk is FULLY lost on lvl 70 due to this new trait. Zerk is IR and does NOT buff the damage by 30%.

Someone already did the math: MATH

Still, I see DRK behind PLD and WAR, which is pretty sad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheCount

Please give back the Heavensward DRK

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Yes!!!!! Thank you for saying this!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

The Why does TBN not give blood after its duration is over? They did this with Scholar, why not Dark Knight?

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I think rather than giving a guaranteed blood after the duration is over, I’ll prefer if it gave blood based on the % damage the shield took. Like say there’s a 12k hp TBN, and it took 6k, upon expiration you will receive 25 blood.

As a DRK main I feel bad for WAR, but at the same time the PLD nerf really isnt as big as I thought it would be.

They said in the live letter that they increased DRK's dps and overall usability. However in the patch notes and crunching numbers people have already determined that its a less than 1% increase to DRK's damage output and still does not solve the mitigation problems.

I guess we will have to wait for 4.3 for any real changes, unless they decide in 4.3 that they need to redo WAR.........again

They need to take the team working on WAR and have them work on DRK.

I really think that there was just one guy working on dark at 4.0 and beyond. He made the DA spam decision, gutted Blood price, ect. And thinks that he is doing great things with the Job and that all DRK players are all emo and can't be made happy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

They need to take the team working on WAR and have them work on DRK.

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Basically this. It's almost humorous how WAR's expected a small number turning buff and DRK's expected a big rework of abilities and it happened the exactly other way around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

They need to take the team working on WAR and have them work on DRK.

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Assuming they have a team of people to analyze the balance issues. xD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ortheri

I really think that there was just one guy working on dark at 4.0 and beyond. He made the DA spam decision, gutted Blood price, ect. And thinks that he is doing great things with the Job and that all DRK players are all emo and can't be made happy.

---

A janitor asked to do some balance change for DRK. hehehehe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

They need to take the team working on WAR and have them work on DRK.

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No. I don't think DRK needs changes like that.

Well they obviously need to be taken off WAR because they keep "fixing" it even though it was already in a good spot.

As for DRK, it needs some TLC, Maybe not a full overhaul, but it does need some changes; such as pre-70 mitigation a minor dps boost, and better self-sustain during single target situations.

My suggestion:
Let Darkest Night be Dark Arted
Make it restores mana when popped.
If used in single form let it restore 3000 a little more than it cost. This makes it a small DPS gain.
If used under DA let it restore 650ish mana per bubble pop This means if all are popped It is a gain of mana and meter but if careless and not all pop it will be a loss. This adds depth dps and utility
You could add a 15 second CD to make sure it isn't spammed
These numbers would need careful thought but it took me 2 minutes to think of this and it would take DRK from being garbage to being perfectly fine with slightly increased DPS, mitigation and raid utility.
I also feel they should give back slash buff to DRK as right now PLD + DRK means both do 10% less dps than if a warrior were present and since PLD is considered a must DRK is not wanted or needed.
Please do SOMETHING SE. Don't leave DRK useless and broken for another patch.

Wait so I'm confused, you guys want nerfs for DRK instead of buffs? War changes are a HUGE nerf. If you think they aren't then you need to stop asking opinions from casual players, https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...warrior_based/

All they did was nerf warrior, slight nerf pld to bring them down to drk's level and slightly buff drk. Resulting in a overall nerf of tank damage without it being obvious so less people complain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Briannababy

Wait so I'm confused, you guys want nerfs for DRK instead of buffs? War changes are a HUGE nerf. If you think they aren't then you need to stop asking opinions from casual players, https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...warrior_based/

All they did was nerf warrior, slight nerf pld to bring them down to drk's level and slightly buff drk. Resulting in a overall nerf of tank damage without it being obvious so less people complain.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...adly_designed/

That post would suggest that the warrior changes are not a nerf. Not great playstyle, but still not a nerf. I trust Emiin's analysis breaking down the warrior rotation based on the notes far more than what Bokchoy did in his post. There are multiple issues in his breakdown and should not be taken even remotely seriously.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheCount

Please give back the Heavensward DRK

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This. I usually never post on or view these forums but it's just so frustrating seeing a job I mained and loved playing for two years in HW get totally decimated, that I had to complain about it. I rushed it to 70 on launch, but once I got my PLD to 70 a week later I don't think I have ever played it again. Whoever thought SB DRK was a good idea needs their pay cut.

Then at last, a light of hope! They said changes were comming! Maybe it will be the rework it needs! Nope, just kidding, WAR gets a rework to dumb it down to DRKs level while DRK gets two insignificant changes that amount to hardly anything.

I can already see the future as well; WAR community will complain about the changes, WAR will be buffed massively in 4.25 or 4.3 and DRK will get a 20 potency increase on Bloodspiller, or if we are super lucky, 10 potency on Dark Passenger.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mix

I can already see the future as well; WAR community will complain about the changes, WAR will be buffed massively in 4.25 or 4.3 and DRK will get a 20 potency increase on Bloodspiller, or if we are super lucky, 10 potency on Dark Passenger.

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I think patch 4.2 showed that they basically give a shit about complaints from the community. My only hope at this point is, that they will loose interest in kickin WAR around and start with DRK...which will probably end in a Souleater nerf, so that Bloodspiller is actually a dps gain. xD

I honestly don't understand why people "want HW DRK back" asides from having a severe case of nostalgia goggles.

HW DRK had a good number of problems that people didn't like, some of which are still around and people are still complaining about.
Shadow Wall being the worst of the big tank defensives, Living Dead being unnecessarily convoluted in comparison to the other tank ultimates, Unleashed and Abyssal seeming redundant, Sole Survivor being far too niche and not useful in most boss content.
All of these things existed in HW, it just happened to be that the problems with PLD in regards to job balance overshadowed any complaints about issues that DRK had.

Sure DRK got really messed up with the SB job changes; they removed far too much, left too much of the stuff that was janky or not very good and didn't add enough new good stuff to compensate for any of it. That doesn't mean that everything that was changed or added to DRK with SB is garbage and should be scrapped. TBN, ignoring arguments about DPS losses/gains, is a pretty damn cool ability. Bloodspiller and Quietus, after the MP restore effect was added, are also both welcome editions as well.

Believe me, the "HW DRK" would not nearly be as great as people may think in the environment of the game at this point. It "worked" then, mainly because of bigger issues with other jobs, but wouldn't really work so great now.

So instead of just providing feedback like "I want HW DRK back", dissect the problem. What exactly was done that makes DRK feel lacking or less fun to play now? Would reversing any of these changes actually really "fix" DRK in the ways that it needs? What other ways could the problems with DRK be addressed?

The problem with DRK isn't really that so much was taken away it is what was given to the other tanks.
WAR got a great raid cooldown and paladin got a second. WAR and PLD dps went up significantly.
DRK was given no raid buff and it's DPS is actually lower than PLD! The problem is WAR and PLD got buffed too much and DRK got nothing except DPS abilities that are weak. Right now it is a detriment to bring a DRK over a PLD or a WAR because you either lose TWO raid cooldowns and emergency healing or one 90s raid cooldown, slash debuff and some DPS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

DRK was given no raid buff

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No, just stop with this inane train of thought that all tanks need a raid buff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

...lost slash debuff

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Wait... what?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...adly_designed/

That post would suggest that the warrior changes are not a nerf. Not great playstyle, but still not a nerf. I trust Emiin's analysis breaking down the warrior rotation based on the notes far more than what Bokchoy did in his post. There are multiple issues in his breakdown and should not be taken even remotely seriously.

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It's only a buff if warriors can consistently get a 5th fell cleave in the inner release window. If they can't, it's a nerf.

If three tanks do the same DPS but two have raid cooldowns why would you take the one who doesn't?
Because that is the situation now.

The main reason people what HW DRK back is that despite the problems the job had it was much more fun to play than what we have now.

The 4th fasted neo exdeath kill has a darkknight. It is 11s slower than the fastest one atm. Only like ~100people worldwide manage to get under 10min clear times. That is less than 1% of all logs.

If darkknight is so bad, how do they manage it?

I can accept skillstyle concerns, but dps wise drk is maybe statistically 5% lower than the other tanks, which got nerfed very slightly and drk buffed very very slightly. For me it works out even though it doesn't have to mean the classes are fun to play.

But balance is not about your fun factor...

DRK single target shield has a CD of 15s, there can be mechanics in future raids which make it more desirable. In old content mechanics existed that targeted random people with minitankbuster, with short time to shield both, if they would be more frequent then tbn will be nice to have.

They managed it by compensating for the DRK. It's that simple.
DRK can do any content but the healers will have to work harder and the DPS will have to be better to get such a time.
You can not make the claim DRK is not worse than WAR and PLD. It has less defensive CD's less overall DPS and brings no raid utility.
They can still clear the content. The group is just simply worse off than with a PLD or WAR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

The 4th fasted neo exdeath kill has a darkknight. It is 11s slower than the fastest one atm. Only like ~100people worldwide manage to get under 10min clear times. That is less than 1% of all logs.

If darkknight is so bad, how do they manage it?

I can accept skillstyle concerns, but dps wise drk is maybe statistically 5% lower than the other tanks, which got nerfed very slightly and drk buffed very very slightly. For me it works out even though it doesn't have to mean the classes are fun to play.

But balance is not about your fun factor...

DRK single target shield has a CD of 15s, there can be mechanics in future raids which make it more desirable. In old content mechanics existed that targeted random people with minitankbuster, with short time to shield both, if they would be more frequent then tbn will be nice to have.

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Because tanks don't count for 50% of the DPS for the fight, that's why. Your post is just..ugh. A tank can be worse than the other two and still beat all the encounters, that's hardly the point is it? THe point is that Dark Knight is flat out worse than the other two tanks in every area. It literally has no strengths because guess what, paladin took that as well now with their ability to block magic damage. They have most of their abilities stripped away since Stormblood as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

If darkknight is so bad, how do they manage it? .

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They are outliers, plain and simple, a good player is simply good. They know their job well and they will post outstanding times based on party comp, buffs and etc.
That does not make a job fun or playable, it does not make a job balance, it simply means that individual player is good enough to get past the job's shortcomings.

Your post parrots an anti-meta standpoint that at its core is detrimental to the discussion of how Dark Knight has been gutted and ignored.
One job does not carry a group, it never will, learn that well and don't make bold-faced inaccurate statements like that again.

By that logic, since Paladin was more than capable of clearing the entirety of Alexander during Heavensward, it shouldn't have changed one iota in Stormblood because it didn't need them.
The thing is, Dark Knight DO manage it, they DO manage all the content right now, but have some unique challenges that the other two tanks already have answers for.

I haven't mentioned this much in threads, but I don't see it said often enough and I'd like to assert this factor. I often found myself wondering why I took Dark Knight a little more personally than I had my other main jobs throughout my time playing FFXIV. People laughed at me on Dragoon in early 2.x, I didn't care. I trudged through Machinist during the early days of Heavensward with pride. Why Dark Knight then, has me so concerned?

It is because, even beyond healers, Tanks take responsibility for every overall fight. A badly performing tank is magnified across all levels of the fight and affects everybody. Praying for my TBN to line up correctly while my other cooldowns are zilch, hoping I'm not too much of a distraction by needing to be healed constantly between cooldowns, feeling the guilt inherent in Living Dead forcing healers to stop what they're doing and pool resources they may have not had to use otherwise on me, etc. etc.
In Heavensward Dark Knight had an answer to many of these areas of critical contention in performance, yet in Stormblood it often feels as though I'm hindering my party instead.

So I feel the passion and anger and sadness many Dark Knights suffer is this inferiority in accepting the responsibility of the role that is the standard. These little issues magnify and add up exponentially on the tanking role.

So yes, Dark Knights do manage currently. And feel the chains of guilt knowing that they held their party back just that little bit, which matters even moreso on tanks. (Admittedly that sounds like a very Dark Knight thing to feel. Maybe we're just saving up for a major Minus Strike for 5.0.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

DRK single target shield has a CD of 15s, there can be mechanics in future raids which make it more desirable. In old content mechanics existed that targeted random people with minitankbuster, with short time to shield both, if they would be more frequent then tbn will be nice to have.

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There will never be a Savage fight where PLD/WAR don't have an answer for tank busters, thus TBN will never be more desirable. Why? Mechanics just don't happen fast enough. DRK becomes so much stronger in Ultimate solely because of the machine gun style mechanic volley and sheer amount of high outgoing magical damage. Dark Arts + Dark Mind is insanely more valuable when Bahamut does three Flare Breaths in 10s. Meanwhile, Neo does Aero III then chills out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheCount

THe point is that Dark Knight is flat out worse than the other two tanks in every area.

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Only if you cant make use of the differences the tank classes have.

I think giving warrior the current version of shake it off was a mistake, but other than that...

dps-wise tanks are close together.

mitigation-wise drk is in a special niche spot, what just many like to ignore and call it bad. It can be situational more useful than the other tanks.

In the end you will wonder for who are you balancing, for the casual raidgrp or the ultimate progression grp.
Pld and War maybe have an easier time being useful with no optimization, but it also depends on the team if it can make use of drk strengths and if you are at that point, the gap between the tanks is smaller than many would like to see it.

In the end you either end up having one most desirable/undesirable class or you change so much that they are almost the same anyway. I rather stick to first option because its more fun to play something different from time to time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

Your post parrots an anti-meta standpoint that at its core is detrimental to the discussion

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It was a rhetorical question..I know its the internet but well

Your only argument is that DPS wise they are close together and even then you acknowledge that DRK is slightly behind. Their mitigation is in a niche spot? Whom are you even trying to fool here man. Just admit the other two tanks are just in general better in every respect. Even the former strength of DRK has been stripped away for the most part considering a Paladin can block magic more reliably and easily and they don't even have to invest a chunk of mana to get the full effect. (which plays into the DRK problem with mana management)

I mean really now. Stop being so blatantly inaccurate. Why are you even trying to defend the DRK in its current state? Because it wouldn't make them unique? I'd argue that the heavensward version was more unique and really that's what people want back. The current state of DRK is more simplified and less unique than it ever has been. If you really cared about them being unique you would argue for turning these changes back because at least in Heavensward they truly did have their own niche - being THE anti magic tank with a nice flavor darkside, even an int debuff on the boss. It has had a strong dot removed, shadowskin removed, dark passenger nerfed into near uselessness, blood price nerfed. Why would you ever want to defend the current state of Dark Knight as if its more fun and unique.

Having taste-buds between your asscheeks is pretty unique too but you wouldn't want that either

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

So instead of just providing feedback like "I want HW DRK back", dissect the problem. What exactly was done that makes DRK feel lacking or less fun to play now? Would reversing any of these changes actually really "fix" DRK in the ways that it needs? What other ways could the problems with DRK be addressed?

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Nice idea.

I want the proc systems back. I loved the rush of reprisal procs off parries and the reseting low blow (which had potency). Looking for these things while juggling mana and oGCDs brought a breath of fresh air to a tanking class which was basically just alternating their combo enders. That kind of synergy I miss because it made it more fun to keep looking for things. I find it funny the reprisal system which was introduced on dark knight was used to redesign paladin's shield swipe mechanic (which use to be a GCD attack based on blocking), and then it was taken off dark knight LOL.

I also miss having a physical answer to mitigation being situational (cross classing foresight) so knowing the type of damage provided you with extra mitigation.

If you brought back a proc system which actually did damage, and brought back a proc system which had some utility, and brought back a separate cooldown for physical damage... Then yes maybe these things could close the gap on many issues.

DRK is fine.

No one was exactly bitching about WAR's lack of "party utility," because WAR functioned and performed its job just fine. People were clearing os4 with WAR before the shake it off change, and that was that. No complaints, no fuss. Did the SiO buff make it easier? Of course, but it wasn't something that was going to make or break the job by a stretch. No one would be up in arms if WAR never received a party-wide shield, and no one would have quit the job if it was never given one, much less complain about it.

People like to bring up WAR having an equivalent to TBN in the form of Inner Beast, and an extra cooldown in the form of Thrill of Battle, but let's be real. IB was never desirable because it meant lost Fell Cleaves and punishment in the form of 10 seconds in defiance, and ToB was always used for IRzerk windows to buff up upheaval anyways.

However, DRK's TBN is mitigation on demand that can be used gritless. It pretty much pays for itself to break evenly. With it, you can supplement your cooldowns. Fact of the matter is that many tank busters are magical, and what better way to deal with them than use of TBN+Dark Mind? You could even go as far as treating grit like a cooldown and supplementing that alone with TBN, and that works out just fine because unlike PLD, you don't spend another GCD to go into "dps stance."

Back in HW during gordias, a PLD could not compete with the other tanks without being at least 10 ilvls ahead. In SB, this has not been the case with DRK. It can do all content at a similar ilvl as other tanks and is very well capable of dealing damage that's within the realm of the other two tanks.

This all said, DRK is performing its job just fine. It's not weak, in terms of damage nor in mitigation. Is it weaker than the other tanks in those aspects? Sure, but it's not ruining the job. It's not a reason to cry to SE that your job has been neutered simply because you lack an answer to PLD/WAR's divine veil/SiO. "Party utility," as exemplified by the earlier version of WAR, isn't exactly a strong case for what a tank needs.

If someone is struggling with DRK, maybe just maybe it's not the job but the player.

Literally every time I read the DRK is fine comments this video comes to mind:

DRK is fine

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hierro

This all said, DRK is performing its job just fine. It's not weak, in terms of damage nor in mitigation. Is it weaker than the other tanks in those aspects? Sure, but it's not ruining the job. It's not a reason to cry to SE that your job has been neutered simply because you lack an answer to PLD/WAR's divine veil/SiO. "Party utility," as exemplified by the earlier version of WAR, isn't exactly a strong case for what a tank needs.

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Aside from the strawman argument you made in the rest of your post, you literally contradict yourself in this paragraph.
>Drk isn't weak.
>It's weaker than PLD/WAR.

You cannot have your cake, eat it, /and/ play with it all at the same time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Aside from the strawman argument you made in the rest of your post, you literally contradict yourself in this paragraph.
>Drk isn't weak.
>It's weaker than PLD/WAR.

You cannot have your cake, eat it, /and/ play with it all at the same time.

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Ever consider you can have less than others yet not be lacking? At one point, Bill Gates was poorer than Carlos Slim. That did not make Bill Gates poor. There is no contradiction.