This whole Meta Party thing is hurting me. x_x

Ok, so I'm gonna be honest and say this is both a topic for me to vent as well as a cry for help.

When I first came back to SB after having basically missed the majority of HW, my intent was to main Rdm as it seemed really fun. Once I got it leveled up so I could continue where I left off, I was having a blast with the job and was confident in having it as my main. Once I started gearing it up, people started talking about not bringing Rdms at all and that Rdms were worthless, so this had me getting worried. I next leveled up Smn since it was getting buffs and seemed that it would be desired for it's damage and utility. Once I finished leveling it up and gearing it, people were back to only wanting physical dps jobs and wanted nothing to do with casters. So this again got me panicked and I decided that I'd try to level Mch since it was already 60 and try to learn how to do the whole overheat with Wild Fire stuff. Now with 4.2 notes, people are already starting to say that Mch is worthless and a triple melee + Brd party is the way to go and now I just feel like quitting the game entirely.

I just don't know what to do anymore, I'm tired of swapping to another job only for that job to be deemed worthless in the eyes of the community and end up being excluded from potential play. I'm tired of swapping jobs and ending up being mediocre in them all because I haven't dedicated myself to focusing on one and learning it fully. I just want to be able to enjoy the game with people and have fun learning and mastering a singular job instead of constantly gimping myself. I just don't know what to do anymore. x_x

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Originally Posted by Renryuu

I just don't know what to do anymore. x_x

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It's not the community's fault. The devs have just lost all sense of balance in the classes.

People are going to do what is easiest. And, when you make the synergy of most of the classes better than the classes that can only provide DPS, or minimal utility, people aren't going to take the classes that don't have synergy. That's on the devs.

Frankly, most of the people that refuse to take jobs not in the meta are not playing at a high enough level for it to make a difference. In most cases, you're better off with a capable player of a non-meta job than you are with a poor meta job player.

Ofc, you're right that most people don't understand this.

So there are 2 types of meta really. Progression meta and speedkill meta. RDM will always be a part of progression meta due to the amt of raises you have. So I wouldn't worry about people saying "rdm is terrible".

The speedkill meta is all about ranged dps and melee. Casters don't really have a spot there and that's the devs' problem. Just FYI the speedkill meta only directly affects people who speedkill who are a subset of raiders who are, in turn, a subset of the entire playerbase. So MCH will currently have a spot in the speedkill meta unless the party is running triple melee which brings problems of its own. So it goes something like:
(Player base (Raiders (Speedkillers)))

So the people who think the "speedkill meta" which is what they normally refer to as "the meta" is the be all end all of raiding are actual morons as most of the player base dont play at a high enough level for the meta to be actually relevant for them. Stick to what you like and get good at that job. If people are rejecting you for playing RDM (which is, as I said above, a really good job for progression) you don't want to be raiding with them anyways.

It helps if you remember that most of the people talking in the official forums and reddit are idiots. That said being able to flex more than one job in a raid environment is not a bad thing TBH. Being able to play RDM and MCH at a high level is quite valuable as many players (including me) are one trick ponies. But as you pointed out yourself, learning to play RDM well will benefit you more as I'm guessing that you're new to raiding. You can, of course, learn MCH once you get used to playing RDM.

So TL;DR - remember that most of the people on forums have lower IQ's than baboons. RDM is really good for prog and comes with its own physical DPS raid buff. If you love RDM the most learn to play it well and don't worry about what people say. You don't want to raid with the people who only focus on the meta anyways since they don't understand why those jobs work so well. Being able to play MCH as well is not a bad idea though. But take it slow and get used to RDM first.

I hope this helped. GL for this coming tier and remember to have fun!

You are overreacting. Take it more easy.
There is no reason to go for META if you are not participating in the world first race.
The META only focuses on high raid DPS and to utilize it you have to perfectly allign the buff windows to each other.

And don't forget a good player is better on a disadvanteged job then a mediocre player on a META job.

Just play what you want and be good with it and you will find a party or static.

If you're not trying to be world first in clearing the highest raid content available, then any job is viable, and the people who are dismissing you for playing the job you love are probably not people you want to be raiding with anyway. My advise, look for like-minded people and start your own raid group. Really the only thing you'd probably want to restrict if two melee and two ranged on DPS since it has made certain mechanics easier to handle in many fights, and no overlapping jobs.

Once you have that, provided people are playing their jobs well, all parties are viable for clearing at least the Omega Savage raids.

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Originally Posted by Elix_Moarbase

It's not the community's fault. The devs have just lost all sense of balance in the classes.

People are going to do what is easiest. And, when you make the synergy of most of the classes better than the classes that can only provide DPS, or minimal utility, people aren't going to take the classes that don't have synergy. That's on the devs.

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The vast majority of the playerbase can't even use this synergy properly anyway so it's not worth worrying about in things like pug groups. For example ninjas that use trick attack at random so they're not lined up with anyone else, SCHs that don't use chain at all apart from in a non-optimal way 0.1s after engaging the boss, DRGs that constantly let piercing fall off because their rotation is awful. etc. etc.

Lots of people know what the meta is but most of them have no idea why.

I appreciate the responses, it has helped to bring me back down from my worrying. I've been thinking and if I want to play for fun and for myself, I'd want to make a change. Essentially I'd want to make my character mimic as best as possible my favorite characters. Characters such as Mega Man X, Samus Aran (Metroid series), the Doomed Marine from DooM, and other similar characters. Obviously, this brings job selection down to either Mch or Brd, but between the two, I'm not sure which could best mimic them. I was leaning towards Mch since one consistent thing in my whole life is my love for gadgets and gizmos and the whole steampunk gunner type of thing.

The "meta" has been pretty much static since 3.3. You haven't had to keep changing classes.

This is the first potential class change since then, and before then the same class that lost its place in early HW is back in contention.

From a personal perspective, I don't have much of a problem with what is meta as long as:

At least 1 class from each role is meta
The role that has two classes in the meta changes every so often
The classes that are meta change every so often
Running 3 Melee, 3 Caster or 2 ranged classes is NOT meta.

Right now, SE just don't care about what is meta. They just want to see casters kicked to the curb.

There are a few reasons for someone to refuse you as a X job player.

They want to push foward with a better or the best team composition's potential.
They want their players to be able to perform well in multiple jobs for multiple purposes.
They're completly ignorant and just want to copy what seems to be good without accounting player skill or understanding why that is good.

Sadly the later is the most common. But the first two are very reasonable and something you'll stumble upon when you try to play the game in a higher skill level.
SE doesn't seem care about adressing the social issues these things may cause. On top of that, these issues only seem to be heavily present on the western side of the game servers.

They're trying to balance the whole game around pick up groups, while this isn't a bad thing for business, it really hurts many of the pre-made groups' enoyable factors from the game.

Most concerns regarding the Meta will not affect most players in the game.

However, it really dampens the ability to enjoy a job knowing that another Job does its job just as well while bringing additional goodies.

I mean, I started complaining of BLM not because it wasn't meta. But because the job didn't have anything better than any other job, in any aspect. They had to not only buff them but also nerf SMN to make them POSSIBLY be better than SMN in damage.

It's kind of the community's fault too. Meta comps will only matter at the highest level of progression and speed kills, general raiding is better suited to playing what you play best. I played MNK through all of HW and SB up to now and raided just fine. If you're going for a midcore group and they can't accept you on the job you want to play (within reason, if they have two tanks and you wanna WAR that's not on them) then you're better off without.

I dont know about this meta talk stuff but, so far i never see someone (or me) getting kick outright at the start of run just because the class or build is not the “meta”. At least none so far in jp server, even the world/shout/say chat is empty when i hangout in social place like kogane, limsa etc

You probably overthinking it? Or just happen to stumble one.

Don't mind about not being meta, it's the whole "being the class that brings literally the least to a party unless said party is willing to go to extra lengths to ensure taking you is worth it" thing that I take umbrage with >.>

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

So TL;DR - remember that most of the people on forums have lower IQ's than baboons.

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Well at least they know (?) how to read and write so maybe they're slightly smarter than baboons?

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Originally Posted by Elix_Moarbase

It's not the community's fault. The devs have just lost all sense of balance in the classes.

People are going to do what is easiest. And, when you make the synergy of most of the classes better than the classes that can only provide DPS, or minimal utility, people aren't going to take the classes that don't have synergy. That's on the devs.

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Oh boy. The ones in authority are always at fault and never the bickering children, right?

Yes, certain party compositions will always be better than others and that's entirely the devs "fault" but the so called Meta doesn't mean shit for 99% of the community, or at least it shouldn't. That people are making such a big deal of out it is absolutely the community's fault; especially considering that it's simply impossible to bring all jobs to a through and through even playing field. No MMORPG has ever managed to do that and no MMORPG ever will.

So, TC, play whatever the hell you want and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You can clear any content in this game regardless of the job you're playing, although I will admit that Unending Coil makes it almost impossible for some jobs at the moment (back to the 99%), and if people tell you otherwise, they're not the ones you want to be doing said content with anyway.

What I don't get is all this talk about META like it's this all new thing.

The concept of META is old, very very old. I can remember as far back as like 2000-2001 team fortress matches where people would be like man change your class shotguns suck. and anytime we lost a match it was apparantly because I was a weak class even if I had the most kills / flags on my team.

Thing is meta isn't always meta or even effective. something I remember from way back in EVE online. was a discussion that used an example along the lines of.

The meta to open a door is put the key in and unlock it.
however simply having "A" key doesn't mean you can unlock the door.

the problem is really that players try and copy each other to much. I remember back in XI when they added alexander to the end of the toau story line. my party went in there with a ninja tank and a lol summoner and everyone in nyzul isle was lolling because there was no way a ninja could tank that fight diagas and banishgas would strip shadows constantly. and a lol smn all that would do was feed alexander tp...

3rd attempt at it we came out victorious standing alive in a pile of dead bodies from every other group failing. and it didn't take lol before all those paladins started changing to ninja and lots of summoners started appearing. just because it was a strategy that worked for us everyone else decided to copy it. even though they had no idea what we actually did in there or how we used those jobs...

then a day or so later a guide went up on ffxiclopedia saying the setup we used was meta and thus everyone was trying it. and the next day some guys had posted up another setup and strategy that was much easier than the one we used and suddenly that was the one everyone was trying to use.

End of heavensward is another big example. Zurvan EX meta was 1 tank 5 dps. but even though groups were following that set up they still couldn't get through the fight or even skip the soar which was the sole purpose of taking that 5th dps.

Players tend to look at META and think it's the only way to get something done. and it's really not.

even in 1.2 the meta for ifrit for a long time was drop ya blm job crystal and slot sentinel... then they started seeing players go in as blms and come out alive and realised they didn't need sentinel if they smashed the nails quick enough so then the meta went blm. and it got to a point wehre if a monk wanted to come everyone said no. blm only. then one day my ls were smashing it with 5 monks and lots of players were like wtf?? how??? monk cant do that fight...

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Originally Posted by aeoncs

You can clear any content in this game regardless of the job you're playing, although I will admit that Unending Coil makes it almost impossible for some jobs at the moment (back to the 99%) [...]

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Actually, even ultimate coil has parses for every job. That means every job has been able to clear. The first clear was actually with a DRK, generally considered the weakest tank pick, with the person in question rationalizing this pick as:"I like DRK.". Does Meta, then, "really" matter even at the highest level of play?

Frankly, meta matters to everyone and noone. If you are able to make suboptimal things work for what you want to do, congrats, you can screw the meta. If you are unable to do that, meta might give you that little extra oomph you need.

And randoms will generally want that extra oomph anyway just in case, because they have no idea who they're dealing with. There's also a lot of confirmation bias going on - Dzian touches on that, people like to interpret information in a way to confirm pre-existing beliefs, i.e. a loss as the result of a suboptimal pick. That's human behavior, nothing to do about it. But it explains why meta is rather important to people in PF.

I would not concern yourself with the meta or what is strong. Metas change with time, buffs/nerfs and player viewpoints. Play what is fun to you primarily. If you find it fun, most players will naturally try to get better at the job.

With that said, certain character/jobs/etc. will tend to be slightly stronger or weaker than other jobs. Rather than just playing the flavour of the month overpowered job, play one that you really enjoy playing and maybe think about having a sub job in case stuff happens in the future. It is more important to try to be a master than just be mediocre at a strong meta job.

In fighting games, you will see players who are masters at a character overcome bad match-ups against other characters.

I used to worry about meta but realized that I'm not at the level of play where the meta matters much if at all... and if I can devote my time to getting to that level I can do it on any class.... I did things on a hybrid ninja/kagerou in Ragnarok online like capturing and holding a castle in woe with just ninja, or killing over 40 different mvps solo, climbing to floor 50 in endless tower solo... the point is play what you like and if it doesn't fit the meta break the meta

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Originally Posted by popotaro

Well at least they know (?) how to read and write so maybe they're slightly smarter than baboons?

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We think the baboons actually know how to read and write but they're too smart to let on.

How important the "meta" is remains entirely subjective. Many groups, especially on the more casual side, aren't going to care. It matters more as you climb the totem pole, but even then plenty of people will take a good player who a meta job. For example sake, my Savage static has ran Monk since Creator and generally doesn't focus on meta jobs. My Ultimate group that formed more recently are a bunch of tryhards. We care more about squeezing out that extra DPS.

It all comes down to what you prefer. In fact, the recruitment discord often shows numerous statics looking for any roles. If you're ever looking, drop me a DM and I'll be happy to help set you up finding a group. :)

^pretty much

You only find meta talk (mostly) when you reach the top 10% such as endgame raid, 60-90% probably has stuff about meta too but only in casual way like based on log or parse where the top 10% goes deeper into calculation and % stuff.

As casual myself, the nerf (or buff) didnt bother me one bit, i play this for fun, for community, enjoy the story etc. hell iam even more hype about the msq continuation than the combat balancing.

Also, if you go to jp section forum and check the class role, there is no thread that bitching about class nerf or buff, they all more care about housing and socialising stuff lol

I found that not even the end game groups (apart from maybe bleeding edge, but I wouldn't know) care much about meta. It's mostly just the "would-be hardcore" groups on pf that make it a big deal.
Most endgame raidgroups are fairly chill about your choice of class, as long as you can play it well.

In the very scripted PVE fights of XIV, meta isn't subjective. The reason meta is subjective and shifts even though no change happens in other competitive PVP based games its because you've interactivity between opponents (player to player interactions) that slowly chnages how people react to eachothers. META means Most Efficient Tactic Avaliable, when the enemy always does the same thing, the best tactic will always be the same. You can see people doing speedruns of games in general and when a random factor is accounted for something, speedrunners just tend to say that if X doesn't happen by the game's built in randomness you should just restart and do it until the best random possibility happens. You see that on XIV speedruns as well, usually about Balance draws mid encounter. There is a really good Mogtalk about this from before Stormblood launched.

The reason why people get comfortable into forcing or letting to be forced to play the best jobs on Savage it's because clearing it isn't all that hard or not even considered a challenge by a very large amount of players. So clearing is treated as just a small step on the journey to master a encounter. Then you best yourself out then you best yourself out on a meta job so everyone can break their best by efficient buff stacking. The fact all fights follow a easy to memorize and plan around script and that the best jobs can be the best when adapted to ever one of these scripts also doesn't help and make the meta to just always be better in any encounter. It just becomes a matter of adapting to the script.

That being said, the real issue is that the game community of XIV replaced "besting yourself" as a first to "play a better job". When playing a better job should be one of the last steps when seeking the best result ever possible. And this is why you don't see people trying out the best damage composition on Ultimate, because right now clearing itself is a challenge and playing what is comfortable will oftenly matter more. That's something that was also present on Gordias, and a bit in Midas, when most of the playerbase was still struggling in Savage.

Metagame solutions shouldn't be demonized or idolized. Understanding why something is the best possible can help you into playing better with what isn't the best possible and become a better player. Once you can't progress further unless you change to the best job and you want to keep progressing, go for it. And build the perfect team in order to seek the best results.

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Originally Posted by CatStarPrime

We think the baboons actually know how to read and write but they're too smart to let on.

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I'm leaning more towards there being hundreds of baboons with keyboards and infinite amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Players tend to look at META and think it's the only way to get something done. and it's really not.

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this is what its all about... but even more annoying is a pf description like "we'll be watching u, if under 80% uptime kick!" or "fflogs run below 4.5k kick!"... all this "end content" (mostly its not even endgame at all, also mount farm for the lulz) farm restriction with meta jobs or min. dps %... are problems we caused ourselves - pointing on the devs is just kinda flat and hypercritical imo.

I'd rather pick a decent non-meta player who can clear stuff over a meta player who is just a tryhard.

https://scontent.fyyc4-1.fna.fbcdn.n...6b&oe=5AE96E2F

Meta is a issue. People should not have to play unbalanced classes
Being 1-2% lower or higher in DPS is one thing but classees bringing crazy buffs when you have none is broken
It's not that hard. Give each class one buff
Just don't let the same class' buff stack so there is no concern of one class' buff being better than others
It is just so easy I don't understand how they can muck it up
One buff per class. Crit, Direct hit. Damage up. Speed up. Crit vulnerability, Direct hit vulnerability. damage vulnerability.
Make each one of these twice. Half with one effect and half with 2 effects at half strength
That's 14 buffs so make one more that is a hybrid of 3 effects and bam. Everyone is useful No these are not creative but you can be creative when you can balance classes and not have people nobody wants in their group

metas wont change in 4.2, other than that smn got replaced by mnk (in it's possible meta spot and probably high personal dps)

but it pains to see, that rdm remains the only caster in any meta (prog), .. meaning again casters will have a hard time in PFs.. (Sam possibly too) ... maybe smn can still be accepted in progs??

atleast sam could shine (personal dps-wise) before 4.2, .. and smn too (even in metas)...

guess its mnk's turn to shine. , 4.3 maybe finally blm's turn xD

though, the buff/nerfs might have to do with the amount of player base in each class (SR tries to keep less played classes interesting with buffs..., overused get nerfed a bit???)

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

metas wont change in 4.2, other than that smn got replaced by mnk (in it's possible meta spot and probably high personal dps)

but it pains to see, that rdm remains the only caster in any meta (prog), .. meaning again casters will have a hard time in PFs.. (Sam possibly too) ... maybe smn can still be accepted in progs??

atleast sam could shine (personal dps-wise) before 4.2, .. and smn too (even in metas)...

guess its mnk's turn to shine. , 4.3 maybe finally blm's turn xD

though, the buff/nerfs might have to do with the amount of player base in each class (SR tries to keep less played classes interesting with buffs..., overused get nerfed a bit???)

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How many times do we have to tell you. SMN WAS NOT META.

They were pretty close, but they absolutely weren't.

Thread is tl;dr, but:

There will always be a META, and that's a good thing!

What is REALLY hurting you (and everyone, for that matter) is just how drastic the difference between META and non-META comps really is. If this gap could be lessened, it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.

/thread \o/

smn pre 4.2 was not 100% in the speedkill (or prog) meta, but was the closest / best alternative for both metas.. and still a valid choice.

that "spot" has now been switched with mnk, .. seems like mnk will be the best alt in both metas (with the sight mch nerf, maybe even replace mch??)

so now, casters are completely out of the speedkill meta in any form or with alts,.. while 3 melee might just be valid in both metas

meta in 2018 lul

just play what you like smh

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Originally Posted by Llugen

What is REALLY hurting you (and everyone, for that matter) is just how drastic the difference between META and non-META comps really is. If this gap could be lessened, it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.

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what really hurts and what the true issue with meta is - that people either think everything else didn't deserve a spot in any farm-party or even more shameful they take the meta-lockouts to get carried. I often got the feeling that a hugh amount of the comm think... that they won't be worth anything or aren't be accepted if they don't play a meta cls or give a fuck about meta at all.... whats sad somehow q.q

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Originally Posted by Mirch

meta in 2018 lul

just play what you like smh

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if blm wont be discriminated again and get in mosts Pfs, sure..

Just play what you want, it's why I main red mage and love playing all the healers because I feel comfortable playing them. If you feel comfortable playing a meta job than that's a bonus for you but it's not required by any means.

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if blm wont be discriminated again and get in mosts Pfs, sure

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serious question as casual myself, i always want to know if this is how most people generally act in endgame raid? granted i rarely touch that top 10% summit but, the most that i join i didnt see that kind of impression at all.

from my view, some just leave without words then another random join in, it goes on until the party got disband if we keep failing. but most of the time people still polite and at least from what i see they are having fun with it, peole say hello when they join, throwing emotes casually like nod, sit etc even sometimes kind enough to explain the key mechanic for 1st timer.

even when wiped they just still doing those silly emote, not once i ever see someone type something like noob or git gud or anything that offensive, the "worst" i've seen is "sorry guys, this party wont do, iam out good luck" or anything close to that line.