One hope i have for DRK's in 4.2

I hope Sole Survivor gets the SiO treatment. I'd argue it's more useful and equally as useless as pre-change SiO was. What it brings to the table is not enough to justify it having a 120s recast timer, so in the few instances where you'd need it it doesn't serve any real tangible use to the DRK/party.

Pls SE, bring back Scourge!

Also salted earth, dark passenger, blood weapon and delirium would need some changes.

I dont understand the concept of a skill that does almost no damage like 75 potency on a 45 cd cooldown or dark passenger, which costs double MP for DA to actually make it useful... I dont know, but it seems like someone was so stupidly drunk when he was designing it. Salted earth for example, wtf is that, its like putting level 5 ability and make it lvl 60 ability in any other mmorpg, lol.

Salted earth should be doing 75 potency each second aoe dps, blood weapon should be used with the grit on (with 10-20% dmg converted into mp), dark passenger shouldnt have mp cost and sole survivor should just heal hp and MP to everyone hitting the target, not by the kill, but by dealing specific amount of damage so it could be actually useful on the bosses and bring some actual utility into the team.
With a Delirium, it would be useful if we actually could have activate blood weapon that we for some stupid reason cant use.

At least i wish for the changes like this. :P

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Also salted earth, dark passenger, blood weapon and delirium would need some changes.

I dont understand the concept of a skill that does almost no damage like 75 potency on a 45 cd cooldown or dark passenger, which costs double MP for DA to actually make it useful... I dont know, but it seems like someone was so stupidly drunk when he was designing it. Salted earth for example, wtf is that, its like putting level 5 ability and make it lvl 60 ability in any other mmorpg, lol.

Salted earth should be doing 75 potency each second aoe dps, blood weapon should be used with the grit on (with 10-20% dmg converted into mp), dark passenger shouldnt have mp cost and sole survivor should just heal hp and MP to everyone hitting the target, not by the kill, but by dealing specific amount of damage so it could be actually useful on the bosses and bring some actual utility into the team.
With a Delirium, it would be useful if we actually could have activate blood weapon that we for some stupid reason cant use.

At least i wish for the changes like this. :P

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In general I wish they would not stance lock our abilities. "Please remove blood weapon and SE HP restore from stance lock" complaints from Heavensward were somehow heard as please lock blood price behind grit in addition to our current stance lock outs.

Blood weapon restoring exactly as much MP out of grit as siphon strike restores in grit over 40 seconds, please buff Blood Weapon so that this is a real offensive cooldown again.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Also salted earth

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i am pretty sure Salted Earth does 75 potency every 3 seconds, so 525 potency overall - and it's aoe! plus you gain 7 blood per enemy over the whole duration.

but yeah, the tooltip is a little confusing o.ô;

At the very least TBN should always give blood and/or have extended duration.

Dark passenger: either no/lower MP cost or revert to 3.x values.
Right now, it's only usefull in leveling before you learn DA (so only 5 levels) or with DA AoE. Single target: never.

Fit CDs better with party buffs.
SE has done this to almost every talent in 4.0, just not DRK... for whatever reason.

While I really want DRK to have some form of a party-wide utility skill like the other tanks, I also really feel that DRK needs an ability that works as a real self-heal, Sole Survivor is just so ... meh and utterly useless in most boss fights.

Personally I want to see Sole Survivor completely reworked and turned into the DRK version of a snap self-heal, maybe greatly increasing the healing from the next Soul Eater or giving a hefty self-heal to the next Blood Spiller or something that is uniquely DRK.

I want to see the darkness effect from Dark Passenger changed to a straight % damage down debuff to fill the party-wide utility gap, as well as DP getting it's damage and cost tweaked.

Also as Chrono mentioned I really really really want SE to get rid of the stance requirements for the Soul Eater heal and how much MP you get from Syphon.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Also salted earth, dark passenger, blood weapon and delirium would need some changes.

I dont understand the concept of a skill that does almost no damage like 75 potency on a 45 cd cooldown

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Seems to me that you don't understand how DoTs work. Salted Earth is a DoT, also known as "Damage over Time", these skills rely on three second server "ticks" to apply their affect, meaning for the full time Salted Earth is up it is inflicting 75 potency every 3 seconds to each enemy affected by the skill. The skill is up for a full 21s, and ticks 7 times within that window for a full potency of 7 x 75 which is 525 potency.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

While I really want DRK to have some form of a party-wide utility skill like the other tanks, I also really feel that DRK needs an ability that works as a real self-heal, Sole Survivor is just so ... meh and utterly useless in most boss fights.

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I really dread the idea of each tank getting a party-wide mitigation/utility, because it will just come down to (not like it already isn't) which tank has better party wide buff/mitigation/utility and which is the best pair up for party-wide overall buff. Healers are on an overall equal footing and each has something unique to bring to the team, It shouldn't be any different with tanks imo.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

I really dread the idea of each tank getting a party-wide mitigation/utility, because it will just come down to (not like it already isn't) which tank has better party wide buff/mitigation/utility and which is the best pair up for party-wide overall buff. Healers are on an overall equal footing and each has something unique to bring to the team, It shouldn't be any different with tanks imo.

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the problem is PLD is designed for having the best defense and WAR is designed to have the best dps. and it seems square will go back to this course in 4.2.

DRK should had have the best utility from the very beginning.

but now the best defense tank also has the best utility and the best dps tank has the second best utility. PLD and WAR excell at defense, selfheal and utility over DRK, dps will be adjusted in 4.2 - but there simply is no niche left for DRK except you take something away from PLD and / or WAR. this will not happen. so all we can hope for is make the classes at least equal. Shake it Off was a mistake!

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Originally Posted by Tint

the problem is PLD is designed for having the best defense and WAR is designed to have the best dps. and it seems square will go back to this course in 4.2.

DRK should had have the best utility from the very beginning.

but now the best defense tank also has the best utility and the best dps tank has the second best utility. PLD and WAR excell at defense, selfheal and utility over DRK, dps will be adjusted in 4.2 - but there simply is no niche left for DRK except you take something away from PLD and / or WAR. this will not happen. so all we can hope for is make the classes at least equal. Shake it Off was a mistake!

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But the reason PLD has been the best defensive has been cemented by the utility in HW (because it already had all the defensive cooldowns in the book). And we can go back and forth on what is and isn't a mistake. But in your second paragraph you put it rather succinctly: PLD is the best defense and utility and WAR is the "best DPS" (considering the upcoming tweaks and how much they do) with the second best utility (SiO)


If DRK doesn't have AoE utility as it stands, and since everything about DRK from 60 to 70 is for self-benefit they should reap in the benefits of that self-benefit and put in that direction rather than carbon copying a party-effect utility that likely would still put them in third. Change Delirium to an offensive party-effect buff or really make them self sufficient in offensive capabilities or something. But we know at this point that if the party-effect utility to defend the team is gonna be less than PLD or SiO, DRK will still be in the same spot.

I’d like to see Soul Survivor change to either be a raid wide wildfire which absorbs everyone’s damage dealt within probably 10s and inflict a portion of the damage absorbed to the boss and heal the DRK for the same or less depending on the scaling.

If it seems too much though, why not just give DRK only that privellage, obviously scaling higher since it’s solo damage than raid wide.

I can imagine it healing for the same as Equilibrium/Clemency. If it can crit too... that would be something but most likely not due to it being overpowered if it is.

I hope Drk gets some much needed love I resubbed for 4.2 to see what these changes are and of course the new raid tier, gonna try my hand at Drk instead of my War alt for raiding. I honestly miss raiding as a Drk but a lot needs to be done, Chrono has made many threads and things that should be advocated for change (i'd add others names but I forgot their names i'll creep some more!), i'm glad the Drk community is still vocal about changes and hope SE looks into the weaknesses of the class.

I hope sole survivor is changed, although I personally don't want to see it become a DV/SiO copy.

One idea I had for it was:
Sole survivor - Marks target with 'another victim' status, when the status ends a portion of damage dealt over this period is restored as HP & MP.
15s duration 90s recast.

Still feels a tad lacklustre though, so maybe make it work party wide. Everyone who attacks the target gets some HP and MP restored after 15s.

Basically becomes a party wide heal and MP restore that gets better the more DPS you put out.

Edit: also imho 'shake it off' changes were overkill, if they'd altered it to just place regen on WAR for 10s or something people would have been happy.

I always forget about sole survivor because its on such a stupid long CD and also kinda useless for bosses that dont have adds....

I always find that the sacrifices DRK makes (blood or MP) often doesnt have much pay off....Dark Passenger is a prime example of that... >.>;;

But yeah I think the devs wanted to make DRK more tough by forcing more choices with MP but instead it feels incomplete and constrained. There is nothing that feels like the DRK has been "unleashed" so to speak. Everything is expensive because Dark Arts has to be spammed with it and it just doesnt feel like there is any pay off...for the MP and blood you sacrifice for it.

People still wonder if TBN should be used for DPS or defence...and so it end up kinda meh.

For me DRK feels great in single boss encounters but I find it lacking when doing trash as everything costs so much MP and blood price is just so laughably weak and really annoying if you have a WHM that just holy spams

I have loved my DRK since 3.0 (best story in the game!) and want to continue to use it...but if 4.2 disappoints...I may take up the sword again like in 2.0 ;;

Sol survivor would be a good opportunity to give DRK some utility since the skill is utter trash. Even in solo content the CD is simply too long to make it remotely useful, and a side note, this tool should have been given at lv 30 when you actually need the extra regain and mana, not at 60 when you were done leveling

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Originally Posted by Tint

the problem is PLD is designed for having the best defense and WAR is designed to have the best dps. and it seems square will go back to this course in 4.2.

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It actually looks like PLD, WAR and DRK are planned to do all the same dps, have the same defense and compareable raid utility.

From 4.0 to now it was PLD-best dps, WAR-2. best dps, DRK-worst dps. And nearly all stormblood patches were PLD-small dps nerf, WAR and DRK small dps buffs.

Making one the best dps and another the best defense would lead to the same situation we had in 3.x and we have right now. The both best dps are choosen, the other is left behind (if he does not bring amazing stuff) I doubt SE is trying to do this again, cause they already could have done this, by giving a big dps nerf to PLD and big dps Buff to WAR->Done!

I'm pretty sure DRK will get a 3.Combo Finisher, a raid wide utility skill (for more dps), better defense and QoL buffs sooner or later and there is a chance that 4.2 will be a DRK fixing patch, like 4.1 was a WAR fixing patch.

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

I'm pretty sure DRK will get a 3.Combo Finisher, a raid wide utility skill (for more dps), better defense and QoL buffs sooner or later and there is a chance that 4.2 will be a DRK fixing patch, like 4.1 was a WAR fixing patch.

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Seems 4.2 is still fixing WAR while there's another tank still in the DRK about its own fixes.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

while there's another tank still in the DRK about its own fixes.

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Love the wordplay there, however I just want to point something out...

Before 4.0 were we told that they would "increase the usability of Paladin". Now they are using that exact same phrase for Dark Knight and all three of the healers in regards to 4.2 and they also used it for Astrologian when they made it busted beyond all reason in 3.X. So I feel that in most cases it is safe to assume that usability to them often equates to "buff the life out of it until people want to use it again," as that is what that choice of wording has led to in the past. It's not optimism, as God knows I have very little in regards to any changes given to Dark Knight, but if they follow past trends we can probably guess what it is they're going to do to some extent... which is make Dark Knight stronger than it needs to be to get people to play it again.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

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I agree, that should be by all means the expectation. However like you, I have a horrible habit of taking things with a cargo ship stocked with salt.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

I agree, that should be by all means the expectation. However like you, I have a horrible habit of taking things with a cargo ship stocked with salt.

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Definitely. I'm concerned that they could deny expectations and just simply give potency increases. Which in my mind, is worse than what we currently have as it fixes none of the issues that plague the job. I'd much prefer they try and find a middle ground, but as history has shown... it's not really something they've been capable of yet. They could surprise us, but I am expecting the worst and hoping for the best. lol

I only hope they don't screw with abilities that they have not touched, like Abyssal Drain and Salted Earth. Buffing either of these will certainly mean nerfing another aspect about it. Salted Earth + Dark Arts = 100potency, outside of Dark Arts 40potency(because we can't have the original potency in place for it being too good as it is). Sounds totally like them to do that. Don't touch Sole Survivor either, nothing wrong with it, no AOE MP restore, as that will mean I'm not getting 1000+mp return anymore. Just do your thing on the abilities you've already Babe Ruth'd into oblivion.

i think big issue whit DRK is this.

All classes whant have some other class in comp to be useful.
ex: Bard whant see DRG because of eye and crit buff and Price DMG buff.
ex: Healers whant see PLD because it make party more safe.
ex: PLD whant WAR/NIN/SAM because slash debuf
ex: all tanks/DPS whant see NIN in party for Trick attack and shadewalk.

What is reason that any partymember vote haveing DRK in group.
Does DRK have defence that help Healers : NO
Does DRK have utility that buff some dps output : NO
Does DRK have offencive DMG that it is over other tanks : NO

i would say in raid group that ppl decide classes based on they usefulness DRK has no spot. its bit similar why so few SAM get party because they fail same case no other class in group feel haveing SAM will benefit group more then just few hundred more dps.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

. Don't touch Sole Survivor either, nothing wrong with it

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Its one of the most unused and poorly timed skills in our kit. It has a pointless application delay and most Dark Knights will avoid using it as we simply have better things to do than worry about it when MP is already plentiful enough that Sole Survivor won't even make a dent. It need sot be changed somehow to actually be worth using.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

Don't touch Sole Survivor either, nothing wrong with it, no AOE MP restore, as that will mean I'm not getting 1000+mp return anymore. Just do your thing on the abilities you've already Babe Ruth'd into oblivion.

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/If/ it were an AoE mp restore right now it might actually have a purpose. even a non-grit syphon strike returns more MP that sole survivor.

SS is DRK's SiO. Why SE didn't fix this skill, amongst any others, at the launch of SB or since is still baffling. Hence, my hope for it to be changed to something useful in 4.2

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

/If/ it were an AoE mp restore right now it might actually have a purpose.

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Quietus fits this role at 480 MP per enemy hit; doubled by Blood Weapon, so I'd rather they give Sole Survivor a different niche as Quietus fills that purpose almost perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

Quietus fits this role at 480 MP per enemy hit; doubled by Blood Weapon, so I'd rather they give Sole Survivor a different niche as Quietus fills that purpose almost perfectly.

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TBH I forgot about that added effect to Quietus, so thanks for the reminder. =x

I've been a fan of making SS a contagion-like effect, i.e. giving it like a 90s recast and for, iuno, 15s (or thereabouts) target(s) take extra magic damage, but that doesn't really mesh well with the name of the skill. (Granted, neither does quietus' effect match the meaning of the skill name, but w/e)