My Analysis of BLM's issues and why it is currently the worst DPS class.

Introduction

A collation of my thoughts about BLM. I'm sure there's mistakes/other ideas and things I have missed. I also decided to post this in its own thread so it doesn't get lost in the noise of the main thread that is over 100 pages long.

So, what's wrong with BLM?

The issue with BLM is a complicated one. The major issue is the lack of raw dps - but there are issues with other classes/party comps as well as QoL issues that makes the class undesirable and the worst DPS class to bring.

Lack of Raid DPS
This can be solved in a number of ways - however, I feel that part of the buff should increase the power to umbral hearts as there are situations where using Blizzard 4 is a dps loss. At the end of the day, BLM needs to have enough DPS to justify it not having utility, and its not even close to achieving that. http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/ (thanks to /u/blackcatchen) - this isn't 100% accurate, as it favors the damage dealing classes rather than the source of the utility (as you can read here: http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/changelog). But even with this favoring classes like SAM/BLM rather than Raid DPS classes - we get absolutely smoked. Even if you compare it to SAM (which has more DPS and doesn't have the uptime issues BLM has) - its inferior. And SAM also deserves buffs (along with RDM, but that's a whole different debate in my opinion as it has something absolutely unique).

Disembowel
Until Disembowel gets reworked, its going to take a completely broken class to break the Bard/Machinist/Dragoon/Ninja combo. It would be interesting if the disembowel buff was changed to be a personal buff only - or perhaps allow Dragoon to tailor the buff to different damage types by having an option of 3 spells (although I suspect that may lead to other issues).

Make dual Caster Comps viable
Right now, dual caster comps aren't viable. Not only do you have to share gear (although its less of a problem nowadays), but also the fact that Melee dps are favored with their raw DPS output. Until that is changed, Casters will always be at a disadvantage. SMN's changes in 4.1 went a long way in fixing that. But running dual caster means you either lose out on a NIN (Trick attack/Aggro Tools) or the Strength buff - as well as losing out on Disembowel/Litany and having lower DPS.

Synergy with Raid buffs
BLM used to be reliant of stacking buffs in your raging strike burst windows to do good damage, and because those burst windows were every 3 minutes, it did suffer. However now, we don't even have that. Our burst windows are every 90 seconds with a fairly small haste buff, and every 3 minutes we get convert - which is a very weak 3 minute OGCD that gives you two extra F4's when used correctly. Now, compared to raid DPS buffs that affect BLM - Trick attack is every 60 seconds, Foe's is usually around every 60 seconds, Contagion (not meta) is every 60 seconds. Furthermore, if our UI phase is inside a trick timing, its pretty bad for us because we don't have any on demand burst (it would be nice if Foul fit that role) - best case scenario is, we get Foul/F4/F4/F4/F3 proc out during our second AF window. This would lead us into problems with our Umbral Ice phase, but that is explained later. But we can't reliably ensure we have our best burst during that point in time because of procs - sometimes we may be at the start of our AF rotation, sometimes the start of our second AF, or sometimes at Umbral Ice - procs can force us to be at the wrong stage of our rotation. One solution of this could be to move the passive for Enochian to Astral Fire 4, and to change Enochian that is an OGCD that gives 3 Stacks of AF4 and 3 Umbral Hearts. I would also reduce the cooldown of Ley Lines to 60 seconds (from 90), but nerf the duration to 20 seconds (from 30). BLM used to be reliant of stacking buffs in your raging strike burst windows to do good damage, and because those burst windows were every 3 minutes, it did suffer. However now, we don't even have that. Our burst windows are every 90 seconds with a fairly small haste buff, and every 3 minutes we get convert - which is a very weak 3 minute OGCD that gives you two extra F4's when used correctly. Now, compared to raid DPS buffs that affect BLM - Trick attack is every 60 seconds, Foe's is usually around every 60 seconds, Contagion (not meta) is every 60 seconds. Furthermore, if our UI phase is inside a trick timing, its pretty bad for us because we don't have any on demand burst (it would be nice if Foul fit that role) - best case scenario is, we get Foul/F4/F4/F4/F3 proc out during our second AF window. This would lead us into problems with our Umbral Ice phase, but that is explained later. But we can't reliably ensure we have our best burst during that point in time because of procs - sometimes we may be at the start of our AF rotation, sometimes the start of our second AF, or sometimes at Umbral Ice - procs can force us to be at the wrong stage of our rotation. One solution of this could be to move the passive for Enochian to Astral Fire 4, and to change Enochian that is an OGCD that gives 3 Stacks of AF4 and 3 Umbral Hearts. I would also reduce the cooldown of Ley Lines to 60 seconds (from 90), but nerf the duration to 20 seconds (from 30). Another solution could be to create some single target long duration raid buffs for other classes so that buffing a BLM is viable (rather than putting the single target buff onto a burst class)


QoL issues with the class

Clipping
BLM is the only caster that does not have a reliable way of using OGCD's on demand without clipping, compounded by the tight timings for AF and UI. If you clip in order to use LeyLines, depending on your latency you can lose a decent amount of the gain you get from it. If you need to use Apoc or Addle at specific points, you end up having to clip if you aren't lucky with procs. Outside of procs, the windows you have to use an OGCD without punishment is your your Sharp/Triple/Swiftcast phases, or at the start of your fire/ice rotation. Given this, it would be nice if BLM's could use OGCD's while casting.

Punishment for too many Thundercloud Procs
There are times where you can get punished for getting too many procs. You can work around it if you are in your Ley Lines or you are in your Sharpcast/Swiftcast/Triplecast window, but it is nevertheless frustrating outside of that. You have to choose between either using it and losing a F4, or holding onto it and using it in your second AF or your UI rotation - risking your proc being overwritten. You could fix this in a number of ways - either allow the procs to extend your AF/UI timer so you can use them instantly - or allow procs to stack similar to Bard so you can hold them on demand. You can even buff the duration so that procs priority is clear and it makes switching out a F4 for a proc always worth it (although I'd rather that be a last resort).

Mana costs
Because of the strict nature of your mana costs for your fire rotation, you will sometimes not have enough mana to cast Blizzard 4 at the start of your UI rotation. This happens when you don't end your UI rotation on a 0 cost spell and don't get a mana tick after your final cast, or if you skip Blizzard 4 and don't get a mana tick. This means that Foul's position (excluding procs) will be at the start of your UI rotation. You can't finish off with a Thunder 3 cast because you won't have enough mana for your fire rotation, meaning you have 0 flexibility in your umbral ice phase. Its Foul > Thunder 3 > Blizzard 4. Furthermore, you must make sure you use Mana shift BEFORE your last mana tick or you'll go into AF not being able to do 6 x F4. Making all mana costs (including mana shift) 0 mana in Umbral ice would mean your UI phase is flexible.

Increasing the Power of Umbral Hearts/B4
Currently, Blizzard 4 gives you 3 Umbral Hearts that reduce the mana cost of F4 by half. Without Umbral hearts, you can do a 2F4,F1,2F4 rotation. However, if you start AF with full mana (by finishing your previous UI with a Proc), you can actually do 5 F4's. The issue with it is you need to ensure you have a foul ready for your next AF because otherwise you are waiting on a mana tick afterwards. What this means is that for one GCD in UI, you get one extra F4 - which means that a new mechanic isn't getting used. From a personal standpoint, I don't like the mechanic anyway - I feel it should be interactive, but that isn't going to happen. You could increase the number of Umbral hearts, but that would require UI changes so I suspect SE won't go for anything like that. I'm honestly unsure what you can do with this. If you increase the mana reduction, you waste it because of our tight astral fire timing and increasing the AF timer just turns the rotation into F4 spam. I think either the trait needs to be reworked, or it needs to be removed.

Other Notes
I'd like to see Convert being made useful - either reduce its cooldown down to 60 seconds, or increase its power drastically. I'd also like to see Freeze give One Umbral heart, and Fire 2 getting a small buff so they are both useful in an AOE rotation. I'd also like to see Foul changed so that stacks up for each spell cast to reward players that can keep pumping out spells.

No Raise on BLM. Stop peddling this
I absolutely do not want to see BLM get raise. There's already enough classes with that utility. If you must give BLM some unique utility, then I would suggest reworking Manaward (perhaps so it is AOE?), or perhaps another skill that gives us unique defensive utility like many other classes have. But this could be problematic and lead to power creep from other classes and is not essential to make BLM meta. It would be interesting if we had personal limit breaks for a mega ability like this.

What do I expect from Square Enix?

Ultimately, i'd like SE to read this and realize that they did some good work with SMN (other than the Ruin 4 issue), and that it should also be applied to BLM. They need to ensure that they take into account raidwide DPS buffs that are stacked with eachother (aswell as high tank and healer dps). I hope that they read the views of people that main the class and don't just slap on some potency buffs or homogenize the classes to play the same.

Thank you for reading this.

So in some other words the perception and reality of the job elude some players. Simple answer, rotations and how you manage your spells has a huge impact. BLM is not that far behind in terms of DPS. It's more of how people rotate and how fast they can adjust to a situation. While BLM is a stationary character to cast it must stand and be able to avoid aoes. BLM in my personal experience it seems pretty well in par as long as you know your rations, proper geared, and positioning ( how often you get interrupted ). By the way there are several threads that have touched on your analysis already. Overall player experience varies.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

So in some other words the perception and reality of the job elude some players. Simple answer, rotations and how you manage your spells has a huge impact. BLM is not that far behind in terms of DPS. It's more of how people rotate and how fast they can adjust to a situation. While BLM is a stationary character to cast it must stand and be able to avoid aoes. BLM in my personal experience it seems pretty well in par as long as you know your rations, proper geared, and positioning ( how often you get interrupted ). By the way there are several threads that have touched on your analysis already. Overall player experience varies.

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You are absolutely incorrect. Experience End game players and statistics all prove this.

I suggest you try playing BLM more at Savage/Ultimate level content.

As someone who only dabbles in BLM, I like your well thought out and organized ideas.

...but the real reason why I'm writing a response is for a minor correction. The word you are looking for is "dual" (consisting of two parts), not "duel" (a fight between two people). The realist in me says that these sorts of suggestions never actually make it to the dev team, but on the off chance somebody jams it into Google Translate, a word mix-up like that is going to confuse the reader.

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Originally Posted by Raldo

As someone who only dabbles in BLM, I like your well thought out and organized ideas.

...but the real reason why I'm writing a response is for a minor correction. The word you are looking for is "dual" (consisting of two parts), not "duel" (a fight between two people). The realist in me says that these sorts of suggestions never actually make it to the dev team, but on the off chance somebody jams it into Google Translate, a word mix-up like that is going to confuse the reader.

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Thanks for the correction!

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

So in some other words the perception and reality of the job elude some players. Simple answer, rotations and how you manage your spells has a huge impact. BLM is not that far behind in terms of DPS. It's more of how people rotate and how fast they can adjust to a situation. While BLM is a stationary character to cast it must stand and be able to avoid aoes. BLM in my personal experience it seems pretty well in par as long as you know your rations, proper geared, and positioning ( how often you get interrupted ). By the way there are several threads that have touched on your analysis already. Overall player experience varies.

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All of that is BLM 101. The gist of recent discussions is that you can play extremely well as BLM in top-tier content and still not be on par with your DPS peers.

The main issue is Disembowel. All things being equal I'm usually at the top of pars in the content I do on my BLM, but generally the other people in the content I do are not top tier or really caring so much about going all out like I do.

The issues lies in synergy.

Let's pretend that BLM is top DPS in all content by straight up numbers. But bring in the synergy that BRD/MCH/NIN/DRG have and they all buff each others damage beyond what 4 BLMs performing at the same level could do even though their personal DPS numbers might be the highest.

I don't want to see that synergy removed to make BLM more viable, I would like BLM to be boosted to compensate.

All in all I agree with everything you said.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

You are absolutely incorrect. Experience End game players and statistics all prove this.

I suggest you try playing BLM more at Savage/Ultimate level content.

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There is a reason I don't play BLM for higher tier content. One of them being too many interruptions to play and be effective. Playing Savage/Ultimate does make sense and BLM is only suitable for battles that don't require too much moving around. There is no need to prove anything it makes common sense that would be the situation. While it may seem unfair that higher content may be unsuitable for certain classes the basics still apply. Again all of these has been covered in old BLM threads.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

All of that is BLM 101. The gist of recent discussions is that you can play extremely well as BLM in top-tier content and still not be on par with your DPS peers.

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The needs to BLM DPS involve as little interruptions as possible to be effective. It would make sense that DPS would not be on par with others in a situation where interruptions will constantly be happening. It's common sense hence back to the basics which are the fundamentals to everything. Again all of these has been covered in old BLM threads.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

The needs to BLM DPS involve as little interruptions as possible to be effective. It would make sense that DPS would not be on par with others in a situation where interruptions will constantly be happening.

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You are blatantly wrong in your assessment. A black mage at near perfect play is at best 3rd to 4th on personal damage, and easily drops down to 7-9th once you factor in the Raid DPS contributions the other jobs bring.

About the only jobs they bring more damage total than is Red Mage (Who brings unparalleled recovery options) and Bard (Who is only slightly under all things considered, but brings MP song and defensive party options)

Savage Omega 1-4 is currently around 97-99% uptime for Black Mage, with minimal if no use of Scathe, so the capability to deal even more damage there is minimal. Even in Unbinding Coil, the few bits of data we have on them shows Black Mage at an effective 95-96% if we use machinist / Bard (Jobs that will always be capable of hitting the bosses) rate of 77-79% compared to black mage at 74-76.

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Originally Posted by Maku

The main issue is Disembowel. All things being equal I'm usually at the top of pars in the content I do on my BLM, but generally the other people in the content I do are not top tier or really caring so much about going all out like I do.

The issues lies in synergy.

Let's pretend that BLM is top DPS in all content by straight up numbers. But bring in the synergy that BRD/MCH/NIN/DRG have and they all buff each others damage beyond what 4 BLMs performing at the same level could do even though their personal DPS numbers might be the highest.

I don't want to see that synergy removed to make BLM more viable, I would like BLM to be boosted to compensate.

All in all I agree with everything you said.

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The thing is, even if Disembowel is removed, BLM still wouldn't be anywhere near the meta. It would require a DPS boost to BLM at the bare minimum for it to happen.

I think its healthier game design if there was synergy between classes that is more active - things like stacking buffs, or putting single target buffs like Dragon Sight on DPS carries. I'd be more open to it if the damage types were balanced between classes and there were options for each damage type like that. But they aren't (that are 100% uptime buffs that are "passive").

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

There is a reason I don't play BLM for higher tier content. One of them being too many interruptions to play and be effective. Playing Savage/Ultimate does make sense and BLM is only suitable for battles that don't require too much moving around. There is no need to prove anything it makes common sense that would be the situation. While it may seem unfair that higher content may be unsuitable for certain classes the basics still apply. Again all of these has been covered in old BLM threads.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

The needs to BLM DPS involve as little interruptions as possible to be effective. It would make sense that DPS would not be on par with others in a situation where interruptions will constantly be happening. It's common sense hence back to the basics which are the fundamentals to everything. Again all of these has been covered in old BLM threads.

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Even if the fight was a 100% training dummy with 100% uptime, BLM does not get anywhere near the meta. You are absolutely incorrect.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

The needs to BLM DPS involve as little interruptions as possible to be effective. It would make sense that DPS would not be on par with others in a situation where interruptions will constantly be happening. It's common sense hence back to the basics which are the fundamentals to everything. Again all of these has been covered in old BLM threads.

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This is old hat for top BLMs.

The issue is that BLM isn’t very competitive even when cooldowns and positioning are planned and executed perfectly. The Job isn’t somehow incapable of completing end-game content; it just doesn’t do much of anything notably well right now. Uptime is not the real issue for practiced BLMs.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

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Even if the fight was a 100% training dummy with 100% uptime, BLM does not get anywhere near the meta. You are absolutely incorrect.

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Oh? and to what is this census based on? What is your source and has this been compared since the most recent changes to BLM ? I would love to see that and compare notes based on your Analysis. Seems everyone is 100% sure of their numbers, I've yet to see any actual data comparisons or sources that are creditable. I didn't see it in your opening statement so I was impressed on how you broke the information down, however you might want to consider adding a reliable source that has tested your information or at a bare minimum has done test on it.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

This is old hat for top BLMs.

The issue is that BLM isn’t very competitive even when cooldowns and positioning are planned and executed perfectly. The Job isn’t somehow incapable of completing end-game content; it just doesn’t do much of anything notably well right now. Uptime is not the real issue for practiced BLMs.

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Your right, however in end game I've yet to see a BLM that can do it while maintaining their Damage flow. For the most part seems most spend time avoiding aoes or purposely dying rather than interrupting their spells. To each their own I guess.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Oh? and to what is this census based on? What is your source and has this been compared since the most recent changes to BLM ? I would love to see that and compare notes based on your Analysis. Seems everyone is 100% sure of their numbers, I've yet to see any actual data comparisons or sources that are creditable. I didn't see it in your opening statement so I was impressed on how you broke the information down, however you might want to consider adding a reliable source that has tested your information or at a bare minimum has done test on it.

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The source is in my original post. The most recent changes to BLM was in 4.05 when Omega Savage was released, so yes, its compared to the most recent changes to BLM.

Where are your sources?

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

The source is in my original post. The most recent changes to BLM was in 4.05 when Omega Savage was released, so yes, its compared to the most recent changes to BLM.

Where are your sources?

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To test I use https://www.mooglemedia.com/blm-guide/ and have tested it in my opinion is one of the best guides out there. Second if your on PC their is a program that can measure your DPS called ACT (Active combat Tracker ). This is something that raid leaders use. I've worked some people to gauge that for me. To proof my point you can do all the testing that you like it still won't change the one key point...player experience that is needed to properly measure. Now then based on your analysis I can tell you one thing for sure. Not everyone is at the same point in terms of experience with raids. Some are better than others and can really shine. The problems is their experience during the battle. As a BLM one of the major problems is the casting times and CD vs the flow of battle. In other words it's no surprise BLM would be one of the lower DPS when they are constantly moving. I mean come on even in normal raids some BLM are completely incompetent and lack experience, don't understand basic mechanics, and are ignorant of the 80% cast off timer vs 100%. It's no surprise that BLM players think something is wrong. Once again basics that have been constantly talked about in various threads. Nothing new.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

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Thanks for the website as you just verified everything everyone has been saying. The damage scheme changes once Raid DPS is factored in as the website even pointed out it is Personal DPS not Raid DPS.

I don't intend to turn this thread into another Zera-vs-everyone-about-Raise thread, but I'll merely say your accusation of "peddling" is a bit of a low blow, particularly if you didn't spend any time reading our discussion in the thread (Edit: sorry I just read your response to the other thread, and I do agree that "something unique" should be put on, but that -something- should be in the spirit of Raise as off-GCD in my opinion). Certainly no one wants Raise as a GCD on the class as is the current implementation on the other job, but recovery tools are an important consideration for the job (yes recovery, not just shielding) to compete with the other jobs, and therefore it should be carefully considered.

Making a dual caster comp viable might go a ways toward helping this issue kinda, since you're no longer "locking your group" out from access to raise on DPS if you bring BLM/SMN or BLM/RDM, however as you said, this is going to take some consideration, and I'm not sure I see this really becoming viable anytime soon, particularly as soon as 4.2.






Aside from the Raise argument, EVERYONE wants more damage on the job, certainly, but the way that I really want to see that happen is through reliable procs. Thunder Ready and "Firestorm" (check out my other suggestion threads) would go a long way toward this, adding another Fire IV to your rotation inherently and simultaneously increasing the number of Thundercloud procs you get and their potency value through "Thundersting" (again, read my other suggestion threads). Furthermore, more procs inherently means more chances to move for brief spurts and weave off-GCDs. It's a win-win-win situation.


Apparently I'm the only one who likes this idea, but lastly I want to see a passive party-wide stat buff coming from Enhanced Enochian like crit buff from BRD's songs. It wouldn't make the gameplay ANY different for the job, but because it's now buffing party members, parties would want BLMs more rather than just accusing them of being selfish. Currently, parties WANT RDMs and SMNs, they don't want BLMs, so careful consideration should be taken to figure out how this can be desirable. Even SAM could be "wanted" in DRK/PLD groups for slashing, if nothing else. There is zero benefit from bringing BLM outside "raw damage" which we already established isn't even actually true at the moment.

I tried to explain that using MCH example of bringing a raid dps that is integral to your rotation could be a solution, but seems I'm not making myself clear

even using that DRK/PLD example for SAM in a non NIN comp (which happened) true it's rare but it's still possible

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I tried to explain that using MCH example of bringing a raid dps that is integral to your rotation could be a solution, but seems I'm not making myself clear

even using that DRK/PLD example for SAM in a non NIN comp (which happened) true it's rare but it's still possible

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I'd go as far as to say it is not only A solution as it is THE ONLY TRUE solution, SE please save this selfish meme for 5.0 it never worked and never will on StormBlood.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

To test I use https://www.mooglemedia.com/blm-guide/ and have tested it in my opinion is one of the best guides out there. Second if your on PC their is a program that can measure your DPS called ACT (Active combat Tracker ). This is something that raid leaders use. I've worked some people to gauge that for me. To proof my point you can do all the testing that you like it still won't change the one key point...player experience that is needed to properly measure. Now then based on your analysis I can tell you one thing for sure. Not everyone is at the same point in terms of experience with raids. Some are better than others and can really shine. The problems is their experience during the battle. As a BLM one of the major problems is the casting times and CD vs the flow of battle. In other words it's no surprise BLM would be one of the lower DPS when they are constantly moving. I mean come on even in normal raids some BLM are completely incompetent and lack experience, don't understand basic mechanics, and are ignorant of the 80% cast off timer vs 100%. It's no surprise that BLM players think something is wrong. Once again basics that have been constantly talked about in various threads. Nothing new.

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Do me a favor - go read the guide. Its an alright guide, it has its issues and misses some things out, however nothing in that guide backs your argument up. Also, check the end of the guide - the mentions part. Then check my character name again.

Also, there is a website that uses the method you talk about to generate statistics for each job - All the uptime figures people have quoted, the raw DPS numbers and raid dps numbers are taken from the same method you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I don't intend to turn this thread into another Zera-vs-everyone-about-Raise thread, but I'll merely say your accusation of "peddling" is a bit of a low blow, particularly if you didn't spend any time reading our discussion in the thread (Edit: sorry I just read your response to the other thread, and I do agree that "something unique" should be put on, but that -something- should be in the spirit of Raise as off-GCD in my opinion). Certainly no one wants Raise as a GCD on the class as is the current implementation on the other job, but recovery tools are an important consideration for the job (yes recovery, not just shielding) to compete with the other jobs, and therefore it should be carefully considered.

Making a dual caster comp viable might go a ways toward helping this issue kinda, since you're no longer "locking your group" out from access to raise on DPS if you bring BLM/SMN or BLM/RDM, however as you said, this is going to take some consideration, and I'm not sure I see this really becoming viable anytime soon, particularly as soon as 4.2.

Aside from the Raise argument, EVERYONE wants more damage on the job, certainly, but the way that I really want to see that happen is through reliable procs. Thunder Ready and "Firestorm" (check out my other suggestion threads) would go a long way toward this, adding another Fire IV to your rotation inherently and simultaneously increasing the number of Thundercloud procs you get and their potency value through "Thundersting" (again, read my other suggestion threads). Furthermore, more procs inherently means more chances to move for brief spurts and weave off-GCDs. It's a win-win-win situation.

Apparently I'm the only one who likes this idea, but lastly I want to see a passive party-wide stat buff coming from Enhanced Enochian like crit buff from BRD's songs. It wouldn't make the gameplay ANY different for the job, but because it's now buffing party members, parties would want BLMs more rather than just accusing them of being selfish. Currently, parties WANT RDMs and SMNs, they don't want BLMs, so careful consideration should be taken to figure out how this can be desirable. Even SAM could be "wanted" in DRK/PLD groups for slashing, if nothing else. There is zero benefit from bringing BLM outside "raw damage" which we already established isn't even actually true at the moment.

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I dislike the trend to make classes carbon copies of another. If I want to play a caster with a supportive role, i'd play SMN. If I want to play a carry role, i'd want to BLM (if its fixed). If I want to play Rez-mage, i'd play RDM. Lets not make all the classes copies of eachother. If all the casters could raise and multi caster comps were viable, it would be pretty broken imo to allow that many raises.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I tried to explain that using MCH example of bringing a raid dps that is integral to your rotation could be a solution, but seems I'm not making myself clear

even using that DRK/PLD example for SAM in a non NIN comp (which happened) true it's rare but it's still possible

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The thing is, its still providing raidwide DPS. Even if its part of your rotation (and remember, Bard's buffs are also selfish too - so is trick attack, so is Embolden) - its still raid dps. Not every class should have raid dps. It would be pretty boring if every class did. Variety is the spice of life :) Lets actually have "DPS Carries" like SAM and BLM be viable options. They don't have to be optimal and meta in all fights - but if they are like SMN and close to the meta, its certainly a step forward.

BRD only dmg buff that affects him is foe and they still have to sacrifice MP for it's uptime so in a way it's the BRD sacrificing something (and a GCD) to bring support to everyone.
The rest of the BRD supportive skills either do not affects him or they require some working around or are single targets, MCH is not like that Hypercharge is integral to their toolkit and their entire toolkit is based around WF and generally speaking is more tailored to be dps centric, DIsmantle is there mostly because ANY DPS in the game brings a dmg down effect of some sort.

That's the difference I'm looking at active support over passive. DPS centric jobs could bring passive support in some way and we already have the precedent with SAM.

On ultimate dps rankings MCH is about 150 or so dps higher than BRD (somewhat before raidwise buffs) and quite frankly BRD as an advantage over MCH in that fight.
If we consider the fact that MCH is a more dps centric job than BRD we can use that as a template for dps carries too.

However, You are not wrong in the fact that if everyone brings hypercharge/trick attack then it's not something special and it is a risk atm.

not on topic but what else is brd using mana for if not foe requiem in current content? they no longer sacrifice anything to use foes.

You could say the same for literally every non magical dps

The thing is, the classes don't NEED to be "copies" of each other. RDM hits hard and has dualcast, as well as the melee combo/dash in-dash out. SMN has strong DoTs, fillers, and off-GCD nukes/burst phases. BLM has "sustained" hardcasted "turret" damage. This alone makes the classes different enough from a gameplay standpoint to make it matter less to me if their actual tools are pretty similar. Being capable of the same things is different than having the same playstyle/feel, and in my opinion that's the difference as far as good vs bad "homogenization" is concerned.

The issue with the logic of "raw damage caster vs support caster vs res dispenser caster" is that it is ONLY the caster role that has additional access to Raise outside the healers as far as DPS classes are concerned. You're shooting yourself/yourselves in the foot by playing/bringing BLM over a class that has recovery. This is why I brought up the SAM/BLM paradox in the other thread; if you want a "strong damage" class in your group, it makes more sense to bring SAM for it and then SMN/RDM for the support than it does to bring BLM and then have no additional access to support.


If you're interested in pushing for the viability of multi-caster comps, then I could see how it'd be valid, but I don't really see it becoming viable in the near future. But at any rate, let's discuss the REAL issue: resistance down strictness.


Give RDM piercing down and BLM magic vuln up, then you could do RDM/BLM/BRD/NIN (and pray they fix VIT for tanks again). BLM buffs the RDM, RDM buffs the BRD, etc. This, however, all flies in the face of "DPS carry"; good groups don't want DPS carries, they want synergistic burst phases with the "support DPS" so that everyone can do strong damage. This is why BLM needs some synergy outside of just selfish DPS.

To give an example on why I think Hypercharge could be used as a model.

Imagine a Manadrive ability for BLM: increases the potency of ALL your spells by 20 for 20 secs(?) additional effect: Magical dmg done by you increases target chance to be direct hit by 4% last 5 secs CD 120 secs

It would grant us a Burst and a source of raid dps (plus a unique effect)

I don't think that alone would let us become support, our toolkit would still be too much dps centric but it would allow us to bring something

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Do me a favor - go read the guide. Its an alright guide, it has its issues and misses some things out, however nothing in that guide backs your argument up. Also, check the end of the guide - the mentions part. Then check my character name again..

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Argh it's like beating a dead horse. Oh well with these I'm done unless you have some actual data. Lets take a couple of things into consideration;



First: your sources;

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Introduction
Lack of Raid DPS
This can be solved in a number of ways - however, I feel that part of the buff should increase the power to umbral hearts as there are situations where using Blizzard 4 is a dps loss. At the end of the day, BLM needs to have enough DPS to justify it not having utility, and its not even close to achieving that. http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/ (thanks to /u/blackcatchen) - this isn't 100% accurate, as it favors the damage dealing classes rather than the source of the utility (as you can read here: http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/changelog). But even with this favoring classes like SAM/BLM rather than Raid DPS classes - we get absolutely smoked. Even if you compare it to SAM (which has more DPS and doesn't have the uptime issues BLM has) - its inferior. And SAM also deserves buffs (along with RDM, but that's a whole different debate in my opinion as it has something absolutely unique).

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They are not really off, being that your being "Smoked" is more of player competence and understanding. Your source is more of estimation and like you mentioned not 100% and really gives no actual data just estimations. I'm referring to Trial runs, actual testing. Mine at least were of a set of various communities that have tested. If your raid leader or even yourself were to use ACT you may see a complete different perspective. Your estimated numbers may even lack recommended just to get a new perspective you should try it.

Second; Play smart not hard

I have taken a look at your character, Glad you have cleared content. However having SUM/BLM/RDM and BRD at 70 you can't really compare much in terms of actual experience with other jobs. Maybe you used BRD instead to clear? I Don't know. All you have proven is that it can be done. Kind of that controversy that DRK was broken yet it was able to clear Ultimate coil. what is your point with me looking at your character? Are we comparing achievements? completion? Jobs?

I love BLM however I rather play smart and enjoy the game than make others compensate for my lack of dmg. Being that BLM is squishy healers have to work extra hard to keep them alive. ( From what I have seen and experienced.) Hence why SUM would be a prefer Mage dmg type being it's more flexible and does not depend much on staying in one place. Hence I have SUM as a back up when I can't really depend on my BLM. ( I hate having people carry me ) BLM may not be the most dependable for salvage content and it all really depends on how stubborn you want to be. I have tanked / DPS / and Magic DPS and over all I rather use close range on some and BLM for others. What is your point again? It's all a matter of personal perspective and experience. Now I will ask again do you have a link to an actual community that has tested your theory?

Once again might want to check BLM past threads since last update to them.

....Pretty sure he wrote the guide.... Or helped write it, anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

....Pretty sure he wrote the guide.... Or helped write it, anyway.

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really? what part?

http://puu.sh/yTqEu/76ec44bc2e.png



http://puu.sh/yTqEM/c67d341342.png



....Sorry to use you as such an example, but this is the kind of thing that makes us facepalm really hard. It's like watching Prism argue with Sfia about BLM in the other threads.

Note: It's not that we "at the top" are perfect players, but when it comes to the feel of the class, probably those who actually push the prog/write the guides/do the math know a thing or two more about how the class works than everyone else. Just throwing that out there. Again, we also make mistakes, and I don't mean to be rude or super elitist, but it's rather disquieting to be straight-up told "you don't understand how the class works" by people who actually don't know how the class works.

Ah thx so reference. So some of his input was used. Then I'm actually surprised he is missing some info and did not include this source in his analysis. Also would be nice if they used full name for recognition and server. There are a few people with same name.

I mean, his discord tag is basically the equivalent of his full name for callout.

I'd definitely always recommend looking into players' lodestones/various profiles when considering what they have to say. This is what I mean when I refer to "Shisui AFKers" talking about balance. There is nothing wrong with AFKing in your Shisui armor if that's how you want to play the game, but there IS something inherently wrong with suggesting that the input offered by someone who does not play the content/have "credentials" is somehow equal to the input of someone who does (note: I am not trying to call you out specifically on this, I just mean in general)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Argh it's like beating a dead horse. Oh well with these I'm done unless you have some actual data.

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FFLogs.

Literally all the information from most if not all the high end players are posted there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

....Sorry to use you as such an example, but this is the kind of thing that makes us facepalm really hard. It's like watching Prism argue with Sfia about BLM in the other threads.

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I don't remember ever arguing with Sfia tbh, then again that thread is reallllllly long. Was it RDM or BLM related though, cause the most really I touch on BLM is the kind of support/utility it needs. I certainly don't think their damage is totes fine.

Edit: Yeah no.. I've never argued with Sfia, do you mean Ellie or Ceallach?

unless you can raid 6-8h everyday or are the centerpiece in the static (get extra attention with buffs, heals etc.), majority of blm will say, blm svcks for multiple reasons...

giving Blm "utility" would mean giving Blm agreat overhaul, so big..., it might lose its identy... unless its something like a magic vun bulid in the blm standard rota more or less (trying to weave in anyother utility moves, the way blm works atm, wont fruit well. . manashift is alreadt a pain to weave in the rota at the right moment)

increasing its dps slighty, like SE says, probabky wont change the comp problem Blm has at the moment either.. (atleast blm will get some mobility tweaks.., so when learing a fight, blm wont svck as hard)

atm after hearing the QA, still worring for blm

I'm looking at flogs and though there isn't many parses for BLM, BLM is coming up fourth. So is it really in that bad of a place ?

I just want to say again "its identity" of raw damage low utility only started at the launch of Stormblood. I'd be more than happy to see that mentality bite the dust.

Before 4.0, BLM had exclusive access to Apocatastasis, which was a life saver for tank busters and for spot-saving players from dying to party busters. It also had access to Eye for an Eye, which absolutely helped with mitigation immensely (particularly during progression), and had mini-Virus for physical adds. Furthermore, while Lethargy was not as good of a heavy as Blizzard, it still worked at no GCD cost, and sometimes that alone was enough (and of course there was also Blizzard in an emergency/when clipping MP). Might be a stretch, but BLM could also assist greatly with solo tank strats in Turn 13 by using Manaward and helping soak Akh Morn, and tank a whole mountain buster/flatten with Manawall back in the day (!!!). BLM in this game was never "raw damage", ever. This is a myth. Only since 4.0 was it blessed (cursed, really) with "raw damage, low utility".


Not only is this adage inaccurate (group damage > personal damage, always), but it inherently pre-disposes classes, and by extension players, to experience being shut out of groups because they don't bring desirable buffs/utility. Consider again just how locked in DRG/NIN are, and by extension BRD+MCH. Their utility is too good, that being Disembowel, Shadewalker, passive crit buff, etc.



As you said, not everyone can be a "star BLM" in their party (not everyone can be Blackcat), so please, by all means, sacrifice our "identity" that sucks in the first place and was only that way since 4.0 in the first place by giving us something(s) that are real/meaningful to bring to a party.

The letargy bit is why I say that Break is junk as a role action and should be reworked.

That said I think that even a job could be considered a raw damage one even with a CD that increases the raid dps by something if it comes as a passive addition.

That's why i said in the other topic that MCH could be considered a selfish dps even while having the effect of hypercharge. If we use that + the precedent that SAM has access to slash down, I don't really see any way why BLM couldn't get something too.
But seems that ppl just stops to the surface of my point anyway so nevermind

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maku

I'm looking at flogs and though there isn't many parses for BLM, BLM is coming up fourth. So is it really in that bad of a place ?

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Its pretty much the worst dps right now. There are only 2 dps in the game that dont boost anyone else's dps, BLM and SAM. Every other dps has a lot more raid dps than the ranking shows due to providing raid buffs. So in order to be at least acceptable it would need to be first or second highest dps along with SAM.

The clearest comparison is of course with SMN. Not only does SMN outdps BLM by 200 dps it also provides raidbuffs that are worth another 200 dps and it can rezz which BLM cant. If you now consider that SMN is top dps and is arguably not even meta it really makes clear of how bad in a spot BLM is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Remedi

BRD only dmg buff that affects him is foe and they still have to sacrifice MP for it's uptime so in a way it's the BRD sacrificing something (and a GCD) to bring support to everyone.
The rest of the BRD supportive skills either do not affects him or they require some working around or are single targets, MCH is not like that Hypercharge is integral to their toolkit and their entire toolkit is based around WF and generally speaking is more tailored to be dps centric, DIsmantle is there mostly because ANY DPS in the game brings a dmg down effect of some sort.

That's the difference I'm looking at active support over passive. DPS centric jobs could bring passive support in some way and we already have the precedent with SAM.

On ultimate dps rankings MCH is about 150 or so dps higher than BRD (somewhat before raidwise buffs) and quite frankly BRD as an advantage over MCH in that fight.
If we consider the fact that MCH is a more dps centric job than BRD we can use that as a template for dps carries too.

However, You are not wrong in the fact that if everyone brings hypercharge/trick attack then it's not something special and it is a risk atm.

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https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Wanderer's_Minuet
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Mage%27s_Ballad
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Army%27s_Paeon

All three provide supportive actions while giving an additional effect for Bard that gives a DPS boost. But the debate isn't even comparing Bard with Machinist. Its comparing Machinist with BLM (shock horror in a thread about BLM).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

The thing is, the classes don't NEED to be "copies" of each other. RDM hits hard and has dualcast, as well as the melee combo/dash in-dash out. SMN has strong DoTs, fillers, and off-GCD nukes/burst phases. BLM has "sustained" hardcasted "turret" damage. This alone makes the classes different enough from a gameplay standpoint to make it matter less to me if their actual tools are pretty similar. Being capable of the same things is different than having the same playstyle/feel, and in my opinion that's the difference as far as good vs bad "homogenization" is concerned.

The issue with the logic of "raw damage caster vs support caster vs res dispenser caster" is that it is ONLY the caster role that has additional access to Raise outside the healers as far as DPS classes are concerned. You're shooting yourself/yourselves in the foot by playing/bringing BLM over a class that has recovery. This is why I brought up the SAM/BLM paradox in the other thread; if you want a "strong damage" class in your group, it makes more sense to bring SAM for it and then SMN/RDM for the support than it does to bring BLM and then have no additional access to support.

If you're interested in pushing for the viability of multi-caster comps, then I could see how it'd be valid, but I don't really see it becoming viable in the near future. But at any rate, let's discuss the REAL issue: resistance down strictness.

Give RDM piercing down and BLM magic vuln up, then you could do RDM/BLM/BRD/NIN (and pray they fix VIT for tanks again). BLM buffs the RDM, RDM buffs the BRD, etc. This, however, all flies in the face of "DPS carry"; good groups don't want DPS carries, they want synergistic burst phases with the "support DPS" so that everyone can do strong damage. This is why BLM needs some synergy outside of just selfish DPS.

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RDM absolutely does not hit hard. Giving every caster a raise is homogenization. There is no debate at that. You can argue if its a good thing or not, I personally don't think it is. I'd rather see something alternate. And EVEN if you give BLM a Raise, it won't make it anywhere near viable given how the class works (tight timings, always casting). Now, if they were going to make it a role action, that was an OGCD with a long cooldown and no manner cost like you suggested (but as a role action) i'd be open to it - but it would take more than that to fix the class. There would need to be a way for BLM to use the OGCD without incurring a DPS loss (which is a class issue anyway), and we'd need more raw DPS. But I still think that there's other cool skills/mechanics that can be made that isn't a raise.

Right now, sure if you want a selfish DPS class its better to go SAM - but that isn't the point of the thread. Its about having a selfish dps class as an option for the caster role. And flat out SAM shouldn't ever be ahead of BLM on raw dummy DPS.

Giving RDM piercing down won't change a thing. DRG will still be preferred. with MCH/BRD/NIN. Giving BLM Magic Vuln up won't change a thing. You'll still want MCH/BRD/NIN because BLM doesn't do enough raw DPS and the majority of the parties dps is not magical. Even if you get rid of disembowel or give another class magic vuln down - BLM still won't be viable because they do not do enough DPS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Argh it's like beating a dead horse. Oh well with these I'm done unless you have some actual data. Lets take a couple of things into consideration;

First: your sources;

They are not really off, being that your being "Smoked" is more of player competence and understanding. Your source is more of estimation and like you mentioned not 100% and really gives no actual data just estimations. I'm referring to Trial runs, actual testing. Mine at least were of a set of various communities that have tested. If your raid leader or even yourself were to use ACT you may see a complete different perspective. Your estimated numbers may even lack recommended just to get a new perspective you should try it.

Second; Play smart not hard

I have taken a look at your character, Glad you have cleared content. However having SUM/BLM/RDM and BRD at 70 you can't really compare much in terms of actual experience with other jobs. Maybe you used BRD instead to clear? I Don't know. All you have proven is that it can be done. Kind of that controversy that DRK was broken yet it was able to clear Ultimate coil. what is your point with me looking at your character? Are we comparing achievements? completion? Jobs?

I love BLM however I rather play smart and enjoy the game than make others compensate for my lack of dmg. Being that BLM is squishy healers have to work extra hard to keep them alive. ( From what I have seen and experienced.) Hence why SUM would be a prefer Mage dmg type being it's more flexible and does not depend much on staying in one place. Hence I have SUM as a back up when I can't really depend on my BLM. ( I hate having people carry me ) BLM may not be the most dependable for salvage content and it all really depends on how stubborn you want to be. I have tanked / DPS / and Magic DPS and over all I rather use close range on some and BLM for others. What is your point again? It's all a matter of personal perspective and experience. Now I will ask again do you have a link to an actual community that has tested your theory?

Once again might want to check BLM past threads since last update to them.

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I've posted enough sources, if you aren't able to read and are resorting to personal attacks, I think it says it all. BLM is the least squishy out of all of the caster classes. Its not all a matter of personal perspective and experience - its about hard data, facts and evidence which prove my point adequately enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maku

I'm looking at flogs and though there isn't many parses for BLM, BLM is coming up fourth. So is it really in that bad of a place ?

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4th for a class that provides no raid dps whatsoever? Does that sound right to you? Check out some of those numbers with Balackcat's raid DPS buff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I just want to say again "its identity" of raw damage low utility only started at the launch of Stormblood. I'd be more than happy to see that mentality bite the dust.

Before 4.0, BLM had exclusive access to Apocatastasis, which was a life saver for tank busters and for spot-saving players from dying to party busters. It also had access to Eye for an Eye, which absolutely helped with mitigation immensely (particularly during progression), and had mini-Virus for physical adds. Furthermore, while Lethargy was not as good of a heavy as Blizzard, it still worked at no GCD cost, and sometimes that alone was enough (and of course there was also Blizzard in an emergency/when clipping MP). Might be a stretch, but BLM could also assist greatly with solo tank strats in Turn 13 by using Manaward and helping soak Akh Morn, and tank a whole mountain buster/flatten with Manawall back in the day (!!!). BLM in this game was never "raw damage", ever. This is a myth. Only since 4.0 was it blessed (cursed, really) with "raw damage, low utility".


Not only is this adage inaccurate (group damage > personal damage, always), but it inherently pre-disposes classes, and by extension players, to experience being shut out of groups because they don't bring desirable buffs/utility. Consider again just how locked in DRG/NIN are, and by extension BRD+MCH. Their utility is too good, that being Disembowel, Shadewalker, passive crit buff, etc.



As you said, not everyone can be a "star BLM" in their party (not everyone can be Blackcat), so please, by all means, sacrifice our "identity" that sucks in the first place and was only that way since 4.0 in the first place by giving us something(s) that are real/meaningful to bring to a party.

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BLM has never had utility other than Apoc. Its always meant to be high damage for casters, but SE would always place Melee's above it. Our identity does suck - but not because its a selfish dps - its because we are a selfish dps class that doesn't do enough damage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Remedi

The letargy bit is why I say that Break is junk as a role action and should be reworked.

That said I think that even a job could be considered a raw damage one even with a CD that increases the raid dps by something if it comes as a passive addition.

That's why i said in the other topic that MCH could be considered a selfish dps even while having the effect of hypercharge. If we use that + the precedent that SAM has access to slash down, I don't really see any way why BLM couldn't get something too.
But seems that ppl just stops to the surface of my point anyway so nevermind

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When people say selfish dps - its said in the meaning that it does not buff raid dps.