Lets talk about flash. PAL

I know that drk need an immediate attention but let's talk about flash on paladin. It's design is not good imo. It should be converted into holy from whm or something similar to overpower or unleash. I know paladin is in good position right know but isnt flash silly right now? Leeme know what you think.

I think it's ok to have some flawed stuff as a way to differentiate the different jobs. It's tempting to import the good things from other jobs but then they get samey. Atm only need to flash a minimal amount for enmity or blind effect, then it's over to total eclipse spam for the aoe damage. I was thinking earlier today to just combine sheltron and intervention into a single button that changes effect depending on if the target is self or other party member, like how drk's tbn is, but maybe I'm making them too samey.

Care to elaborate what exactly you find wrong with Flash? If you need more AOE threat than Total Eclipse gives, then you use Flash. It's not like it's completely useless or anything. Do you just wish it did damage?

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Originally Posted by Raldo

Care to elaborate what exactly you find wrong with Flash? If you need more AOE threat than Total Eclipse gives, then you use Flash. It's not like it's completely useless or anything. Do you just wish it did damage?

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Total Eclipse generates not threat. While flash does. Why not make it into one.

Devs explained that they considered removing flash for 4.0 and put an enmity bonus onto total eclipse, but decided to keep them separate in case of pld off-tank wanting to do aoe dmg to adds without overtaking enmity of the main tank.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

Devs explained that they considered removing flash for 4.0 and put an enmity bonus onto total eclipse, but decided to keep them separate in case of pld off-tank wanting to do aoe dmg to adds without overtaking enmity of the main tank.

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Or they could simply generate no threat on Sword Oath for dps purpose. Make it work to generate threat on shield oath.

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Originally Posted by DamianTenbe

I know that drk need an immediate attention but let's talk about flash on paladin. It's design is not good imo. It should be converted into holy from whm or something similar to overpower or unleash. I know paladin is in good position right know but isnt flash silly right now? Leeme know what you think.

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you do realize that unleash is total garbage since 4.0 and basically on the same lvl as flash? at least PLD gets an (GCD) aoe damage skill at lvl 46, while DRK has to wait until 56.

Honestly, I'm wondering why Total Eclipse even exists, because the damage it deals is somewhere between negligible and "I'd rather use my single target rotation" levels of bad.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Honestly, I'm wondering why Total Eclipse even exists, because the damage it deals is somewhere between negligible and "I'd rather use my single target rotation" levels of bad.

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Compared to pre 4.0 when it had no spamable aoe dmg, only circle of scorn and single target attacks, it's still nice improvement dps if hits enough enemies so we can appreciate that. I think pld is too good at other things, that why they don't make it aoe dps very good for balance give it a flaw somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Honestly, I'm wondering why Total Eclipse even exists, because the damage it deals is somewhere between negligible and "I'd rather use my single target rotation" levels of bad.

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You're really underestimating how good a spammable 110 potency aoe is, especially with Fight or Flight and 15% damage reduction on Shield Oath compared to 20% on Defiance/Grit. It's almost as much dps as Overpower.

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Originally Posted by Launched

You're really underestimating how good a spammable 110 potency aoe is, especially with Fight or Flight and 15% damage reduction on Shield Oath compared to 20% on Defiance/Grit. It's almost as much dps as Overpower.

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I see the numbers behind it, and yet when I look at the results in all the dungeons I run levelling Paladin... it just doesn't look worth it. When the difference is that negligible, I'd rather put my time into ST damage because killing an enemy is an excellent way to increase mitigation.

anything in shield oath gives eminity the skills that have eminity built in is a multiplier

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Originally Posted by DamianTenbe

I know that drk need an immediate attention but let's talk about flash on paladin. It's design is not good imo. It should be converted into holy from whm or something similar to overpower or unleash. I know paladin is in good position right know but isnt flash silly right now? Leeme know what you think.

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Flash is fine. It gives immense threat and blinds. What else should it do, make sandwiches?

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Flash is fine. It gives immense threat and blinds. What else should it do, make sandwiches?

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Why so hostile about my opinion? I just think it should deal dmg. I think just blind isn't enough and not worth it.

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Originally Posted by DamianTenbe

Why so hostile about my opinion? I just think it should deal dmg. I think just blind isn't enough and not worth it.

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Disagreement isn't hostility. Me typing GO FIND A SAFESPACE IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE A JOKE, BUTTERCUP in all caps might be though. Good thing I didn't do that.

I'm not your pal, buddy. I think you're thinking of "PLD".
But I honestly think Flash is fine for it's utility. Blind is a nice mostly-unnoticed defensive debuff as well.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Disagreement isn't hostility. Me typing GO FIND A SAFESPACE IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE A JOKE, BUTTERCUP in all caps might be though. Good thing I didn't do that.

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Idk. Perhaps that part about sandwiches made me think you are mad at me for bringing this topic up but hey, good job with that sarcasm heh.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I'm not your pal, buddy. I think you're thinking of "PLD".
But I honestly think Flash is fine for it's utility. Blind is a nice mostly-unnoticed defensive debuff as well.

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I m not your buddy, friend. It was so tempting I had do it xD. Anyways I feel like paladin gauge could be used more for aoe dmg like in other tanks. It's not the def utilities it lacks but aoe dmg.

Seems pretty fair to me.

- WAR has to deal with a cone as opposed to a nice, easy full circle radius, so decent damage and higher potency than DRK makes sense.
- DRK has to use MP for "everything" else in the main lineup of skills to even try to compete with other tanks, and the potency is pretty low.
- PLD's flash costs MP, which translates to "free" prior to 58, and still largely negligible afterwards, as most damage skills (Outside of Holy Spirit) are TP, allowing you to use it at little cost. Also, blind is awesome, since you don't have to worry about attacks landing to make use of the MP regen of Blood Price, etc.

Each tank has ups and downs to their primary AoE enmity generation skill. That, at least, seems to be decently balanced.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I see the numbers behind it, and yet when I look at the results in all the dungeons I run levelling Paladin... it just doesn't look worth it. When the difference is that negligible, I'd rather put my time into ST damage because killing an enemy is an excellent way to increase mitigation.

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Except that, in general, AoE abilities are always less potency per target than a single target ability. So, the "results" are all relatively the same on any job. I mean, I like seeing 23k Fell Cleaves but that doesn't mean it's better for me to keep spamming FC in a 6+ mob pull, right?

I mostly agree with you, by itself 110 potency is pretty lackluster if you're just looking at a single hit. But it's not about that, it's the overall contribution - combining everyone's AoE damage and making the most of buffs available to nuke down a group of enemies. That 10k party dps becomes 8k because you chose not to aoe with them (made up numbers, but still).

So, just do it. Paladins suffered without AoE for long enough :p

As for Flash itself. It does what it needs to do just fine. Is it a bit bland? Sure. Does it have a borderline annoying sound effect? Sure. But there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it. And I miss it sorely on Warrior.

It's worth noting that of the 3 AoE aggro builders Flash is the only one that's not flawed, both Overpower and Abyssal Drain require a target and aren't just a circle around your character, they're harder to hit so they deal damage to compensate.
Flash (and Total Eclipse) are just circles around your character so combining them would just make PLDs better than WAR and DRK at holding threat while doing AoE damage, and PLDs are already better than the other tanks at most things as it is.

I miss Flash on Warrior as well. I honestly don't see any need to change it as it is always a balance between DPS and Threat. Just like doing your enmity combo over the DPS combo it is a choice to go for one over the other depending on the need.

Warrior loses out on Fell Cleaves, Decimates, Inner Beasts, and Steel Cyclone if they are spamming overpower as it doesn't build gauge. Be thankful paladin builds gauge off of blocks and doing damage in sword oath. Warriors and Dark Knights don't get to say this.

Dark Knight loses out on........... lots.

So if Flash does do Damage than Overpower should build gauge and Unleash should generate Blood, Restore Health, increase the timer on Blood Price, or make the next Abyssal Drain cost no Mana.

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Originally Posted by DamianTenbe

I m not your buddy, friend. It was so tempting I had do it xD. Anyways I feel like paladin gauge could be used more for aoe dmg like in other tanks. It's not the def utilities it lacks but aoe dmg.

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I was hoping someone would do that!
Using the gauge wasn't something I thought about. That's worth considering!

Flash is in a much better spot on pld than any other mass threat generator the other two tanks have. Run through mob flash trumps overpower in every way. And unleash is just a waste of mp that could be used for DA/AD.

I agree that some sort of aoe damage skill should be linked to the pld gauge. When all I use the gauge for is shelltron for mp (MOAR HOLY SPIRIT!!). It feels kind of flat. Don’t even say use shelltron for shield swipe. That thing basically procs every 3rd enemy auto attack and is completely unusable because of the cd.