Update request. Tutorial passing requirments before being able to use DF.

There should be NO REASON, a 70 PLD should be entering expert and not know total eclipse spam can't hold hate. There needs to be tutorials in the game that show the basics, teaching combos, teaching how to use flash, teaching how to use AoE rotations, and how many monsters are required to use them.

There is a reason this thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ry.-Let-s-vent.

is as long as it is. I have no issues of having games for single player have no hand holding and have the player figure out things for themselves. I really do like those games tbh, but it does not work for online games. This experiment called FFXIV is proof. FFXIV has too much hunt for info for the playerbase it tries to target as customers.

For online games, what everyone does effect your performance, for example, if a tank that knows how to play, mass pulls, because they expect people in i340 gear to know what to do, can cause wipes if the DPS do not know how to play. Being an excellent player, being a good player, knowing the basics, and not knowing what to do, all have too big of a performance gap of the next tier down.

The biggest reason for having tutorial requirement passing is because of the social problems it brings. Often, at least on NA servers, if you give advice to extemely poor play, you are met with "you do not pay for my sub" It also adds confusion with the role action problems. A healer should have protect, melee should have goad, tanks need provoke. Why are these needs "optional"? when a player with the attitude "You do not pay for my sub" meets someone that wants cooperation, drama happens. "I gave you goad, can you give me goad?" "You do not pay for my sub"

What needs to be done:
tutorial requirements for lv 50, 60,70
ilevel requirements for all dungeons.

There is no way people should be doing The royal city of rabanastre and vote abandon at the second boss since that is a wake up call that 4 people can't carry 8 in passing a small DPS check. Why have DPS checks in the game at all when there is no baseline on what needs to be done by game tutorials?

I eclipse spam all the time on big pulls as PLD and hold hate. this is becuase I use flash in between each eclipse or 2 like anyone who knows what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

I eclipse spam all the time on big pulls as PLD and hold hate. this is becuase I use flash in between each eclipse or 2 like anyone who knows what they're doing.

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You missed the point of this thread. It isn’t about your personal performance, but rather the performance of a player ignorant to how their abilities work.

You can put in any number of tutorials you want, but PUGs continue to be PUGs.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

I eclipse spam all the time on big pulls as PLD and hold hate. this is becuase I use flash in between each eclipse or 2 like anyone who knows what they're doing.

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Unless the PLD is undergeared, a single flash followed by circle of scorn and total eclipse spam should be more than enough to hold aggro. I spam enough that I'm usually begging melee DPS to use Goad on me

I believe players wanting more advanced versions of hall of novice is more to refine their own skills, and have additional content to run. Most are aware that tutorials on the basics of your role already exist, and the PUGs will be PUGs.

As an idea, they should divide it by category:

-Hall of the Novice (Bronze Adventurer Licence): Starts as soon as you start the game. Tells you the basics, like the actual hall of the novice. Unlocks the first set of dungeons after level 30.
-Hall of the Novice (Silver Adventurer Licence): Advanced actions of your job. Combos, cooldowns. Requires you to have your job crystal and unlocks dungeons up to level 50.
-Hall of the Novice (Gold Adventurer Licence): Healing/Tanking/DPS checks to the "best" of your capabilities. Uses all the skills you previously learned up to level 50. Unlocks dungeons 50+
-Hall of the Novice (Platinium Adventurer Licence): Same than gold but more strict. Unlocks level 60+ dungeons.
-Hall of the Novice (Diamond Adventurer Licence): Same than Platinium but more strict. Unlocks level 70 dungeons.

From there on, the player should have a sense of "I must learn what I get from now". Wish you had a "ranking" at the end of the dungeon, measuring your performance based on your role. PvP already has this system and can be refined and adapted to PvE content. At the end of the run, you receive a rank and points accordingly. It would be granted individually and the results would be given only to you. These points, based on the type of licence you have, will give you in-game rewards (Glamour, mounts, minions, orchestrion rolls, consumables, furniture, materia, etc).

In order to avoid people to exploit this and spam it, the requirement to get ranked runs would be: Doing daily roulettes with no more than 2 people (Including yourself). Only once a day per roulette, like the tank achievement. The commendation system can co-exist with this, but that would measure other paramenters, besides your performance but your attitude, which is the prime element that people usually judge on others.

Lazy people will be lazy until something comes along that forces them to stop being lazy. At which point they will either do what they are supposed to or quit entirely... >.>

They'll just say Squares making players treat their game "like a job" and quit.

I mean that's what I get told just venting about butcher block spam.

I want them to make it so you can't do raids until you finish a tutorial. The amount of people not doing simple mechanics is staggering in Stormblood.

I have to admit, I really haven't had issues with TE spamming either, even when undergeared. As long as the PLD establishes hate, usually with a flash-scorn-flash combo, they shouldn't have aggro issues when spamming TE if they weave in flash like, once every 3 TEs if it comes to that. But...then again, this is the DF, so yeah...usually the worst of the worst are found there.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Lazy people will be lazy until something comes along that forces them to stop being lazy. At which point they will either do what they are supposed to or quit entirely... >.>

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

They'll just say Squares making players treat their game "like a job" and quit.

I mean that's what I get told just venting about butcher block spam.

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Either one works for me. If they learn the basics, or remove themselves from the game then problem solved!

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

As an idea, they should divide it by category:

-Hall of the Novice (Bronze Adventurer Licence): Starts as soon as you start the game. Tells you the basics, like the actual hall of the novice. Unlocks the first set of dungeons after level 30.
-Hall of the Novice (Silver Adventurer Licence): Advanced actions of your job. Combos, cooldowns. Requires you to have your job crystal and unlocks dungeons up to level 50.
-Hall of the Novice (Gold Adventurer Licence): Healing/Tanking/DPS checks to the "best" of your capabilities. Uses all the skills you previously learned up to level 50. Unlocks dungeons 50+
-Hall of the Novice (Platinium Adventurer Licence): Same than gold but more strict. Unlocks level 60+ dungeons.
-Hall of the Novice (Diamond Adventurer Licence): Same than Platinium but more strict. Unlocks level 70 dungeons.

From there on, the player should have a sense of "I must learn what I get from now". Wish you had a "ranking" at the end of the dungeon, measuring your performance based on your role. PvP already has this system and can be refined and adapted to PvE content. At the end of the run, you receive a rank and points accordingly. It would be granted individually and the results would be given only to you. These points, based on the type of licence you have, will give you in-game rewards (Glamour, mounts, minions, orchestrion rolls, consumables, furniture, materia, etc).

In order to avoid people to exploit this and spam it, the requirement to get ranked runs would be: Doing daily roulettes with no more than 2 people (Including yourself). Only once a day per roulette, like the tank achievement. The commendation system can co-exist with this, but that would measure other paramenters, besides your performance but your attitude, which is the prime element that people usually judge on others.

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There is so much win in that post, It got my +1.

No matter how much tutoring you add a PUG will always believed superior to the training, "they sub they pay how they want" no matter how it affect other.
Lol just getting them to a basic Hall of Novice is hell even if they lv15 and give pretty good reward so adding anything more just gonna be worthless even if is Force.
I believe this WHO want to learn will LEARN and do research.
Btw I see the same for Monster Hunter and other game

This game already teaches you how to play each class by adding new abilities over time so that you get them down before getting more. Quite often your class quest will even require you to use the previous quest new ability to pass the current one. One problem is that people refuse to read their tooltips.

I am not sure how they could now require a tutorial for DF since you have to use it in many stages of the main story questline. Maybe require the Hall of Novice before you can unlock roulettes?

Do the jump potions come with some sort of catch up tutorial?

The Tales from the Duty Finder thread is long because people use it like a personal blog of good, bad, funny, and confusing runs where they can discuss that stuff with people who understand the context.

That said, bad players won't get better by being forced to sit through tutorials. Heck it might make things worse with the reading comprehension some people have they'll see one move come up and assume it's always good in every context.

Oh relax, half of America can stare out the window and complete any Expert Roulette in 15-20 minutes, good mechanics or not. Don't use the Duty Finder or manage your expectations. You never know who you are dealing with in a roulette, dude could've purchased a jump potion and gotten to 70 in one day. Maybe you could've offered to help with some advice. Again, you said it was " expert " implying a daily roulette. Once you enter a roulette your right to complain about your party members for the most part goes bye bye, granted with extenuating circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

In order to avoid people to exploit this and spam it, the requirement to get ranked runs would be: Doing daily roulettes with no more than 2 people (Including yourself). Only once a day per roulette, like the tank achievement. The commendation system can co-exist with this, but that would measure other paramenters, besides your performance but your attitude, which is the prime element that people usually judge on others.

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Sound like a good idea in theory but to be honest, I would get sick of it and would want it removed by the end of the month same for other. If I was a new players I would hate doing tutorial like if I was dumb to unlock simple dungeon even if they the best lv lol
I would also hate being more judge then we already are with commendation system lol
Such a drag, I hate bad player just like next guy but as proven by daily public school forcing Saturday tutoring school won't solved anything xD sure will help some but no everyone little by little we be back at where we started.

Just put minimum ilvl requirements first. (And the ilvl would be tied to character lvl so you can cheese a lvl roulette using low lvl gear to get in a low lvl dungeon)

I don't want to heal a tank with lvl 1 gear in a lvl 47 dungeon.

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Originally Posted by LastFireAce

Sound like a good idea in theory but to be honest, I would get sick of it and would want it removed by the end of the month same for other. If I was a new players I would hate doing tutorial like if I was dumb to unlock simple dungeon even if they the best lv lol
I would also hate being more judge then we already are with commendation system lol
Such a drag, I hate bad player just like next guy but as proven by daily public school forcing Saturday tutoring school won't solved anything xD sure will help some but no everyone little by little we be back at where we started.

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Well:

1) You would have to do said tutorial ONCE per character, so you would get your licence only once.
2) I feel it gives a sense of improvement and progression. Who doesn't like to have a high rank at something? That's what the diamond licence is.
3) You receive the ranking and points upon completing a daily roulette when you solo queue or with someone else. Nothing different from what people do everyday.
4) It's the game judging you, not the others. Only you can see your own results.
5) Because it's easy for you doesn't mean it's easy for everyone.
6) Some players actually need it because they are truly bad at the game. This affects other player's experience.
7) Players already do "tutorials" (job quests, DPS check dummies). This would go more in depth for further improvement.

You can even make it so you don't unlock dungeons by doing it, but the remnants of the system would still grant you points and redeem it for rewards based on your licence. You can even go further and receive a bonus amount by queueing up as an adventure in need. The trials you have to go through will BE challenging so you can push as much as you can to complete it. No echo, ilvl sync, level sync to avoid any kind of cheesing.

After getting diamond, or within any rank, you can have several objectives, not only a single trial or quest. You can grab a bunch of challenges you need to complete before you can apply for the next rank. The possibilities are almost unlimited.

In my opinion this would solve several issues:

1) Will cut the DF queue times as there is another incentive for the roles in need to do it.
2) More people would strive to improve themselves to get the rewards.
3) Gives you both challenging solo content (Which this game is lacking) and more stuff to strive for.
4) An alternate way to get gear?

The system as I present it to you, in my opinion, has several potential uses. I took it from old school RPGs where you have a ranking and you need it to unlock content. Since this game loves to copy from WoW, I think that these challenges modes (Which is a variation of what I'm proposing) open more doors than anything.

I honestly believe if there was more direction for new players, they would be better players later. Not everyone wants to be so lazy they cause a wipe and waste their own time. Some PUGs are awful but some new players are embarrassed they don't know the secret ways of holding hate that one must figure out through experience or consult the internet just to figure out.

Honestly, it doesn't matter what kind of tutorial they add to the game. You will still encounter "sub-par" players.

WoW tried requiring people to pass their "Proving grounds" in order to play the heroic dungeons. The end result was the same player behavior as before the proving ground requirements and a bunch of complaining about the crappy proving grounds. (They were terrible and poorly balanced not taking different specs capabilities into account.) The proving ground requirement just proved you could do proving grounds or have someone play your character that could. It didn't prove you were a good player.

People will do the tutorial.. and then do what they want forever after.

Also, SE will likely never put in something that will cut a chunk off their sub numbers.. .like forcing mega-casuals to do tutorials before playing certain content.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

As an idea, they should divide it by category:

-Hall of the Novice (Bronze Adventurer Licence): Starts as soon as you start the game. Tells you the basics, like the actual hall of the novice. Unlocks the first set of dungeons after level 30.
-Hall of the Novice (Silver Adventurer Licence): Advanced actions of your job. Combos, cooldowns. Requires you to have your job crystal and unlocks dungeons up to level 50.
-Hall of the Novice (Gold Adventurer Licence): Healing/Tanking/DPS checks to the "best" of your capabilities. Uses all the skills you previously learned up to level 50. Unlocks dungeons 50+
-Hall of the Novice (Platinium Adventurer Licence): Same than gold but more strict. Unlocks level 60+ dungeons.
-Hall of the Novice (Diamond Adventurer Licence): Same than Platinium but more strict. Unlocks level 70 dungeons.

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I miss the Proving Grounds from WoW. We have SSS and PotD for solo challenges but Proving Grounds were better tailored to each role. Your system sounds fun but imo would be better without it unlocking any dungeons, but offering a unique player status at Diamond licence. This status (diamond icon) could be turned on at will to show your combat ability. I would hope that the last challenge is very hard so that the icon would be prestigious and a goal to reach.

Not only should Hall of the Novice be required, but SSS as well for any instance that has a SSS test.
Sure mechanics and such aren't involved but it's the best we got save for some Hall of the Intermediate and Hall of the Expert that could be made.

Dungeons, imo, used to do this naturally. they all seemed to have some kind of mechanic built into them to teach players something. Like this dungeon has hard hitting mobs, so being a savvy tank is and pulling correctly is gonna make you clear it in a timely manner. Or theres annoying patrols so becareful of what you pull, or etc.

But now everythings kind of dumbed down due to POTD, unsynching, and the like. People dont clear dungeons like they used to. They dont learn the classes, and as a result this is what we get.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Dungeons, imo, used to do this naturally. they all seemed to have some kind of mechanic built into them to teach players something. Like this dungeon has hard hitting mobs, so being a savvy tank is and pulling correctly is gonna make you clear it in a timely manner. Or theres annoying patrols so becareful of what you pull, or etc.

But now everythings kind of dumbed down due to POTD, unsynching, and the like. People dont clear dungeons like they used to. They dont learn the classes, and as a result this is what we get.

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You're not wrong, the game certianly had a difficulty curve to teach people as they progressed. But 1-50 was no longer the thing to do, focus seems to always be on the current expansion rather than previous ones, with intentions to get people up to speed as fast as possible. It's not good for endgame because you have a lot of people wet behind the ears there and they don't even know it!

you dont pay my sub

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I miss the Proving Grounds from WoW. We have SSS and PotD for solo challenges but Proving Grounds were better tailored to each role. Your system sounds fun but imo would be better without it unlocking any dungeons, but offering a unique player status at Diamond licence. This status (diamond icon) could be turned on at will to show your combat ability. I would hope that the last challenge is very hard so that the icon would be prestigious and a goal to reach.

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Thanks for your reply, Reinha. Yes, later on I posted some potential adjustments:

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You can even make it so you don't unlock dungeons by doing it, but the remnants of the system would still grant you points and redeem it for rewards based on your licence. You can even go further and receive a bonus amount by queueing up as an adventure in need. The trials you have to go through will BE challenging so you can push as much as you can to complete it. No echo, ilvl sync, level sync to avoid any kind of cheesing.

After getting diamond, or within any rank, you can have several objectives, not only a single trial or quest. You can grab a bunch of challenges you need to complete before you can apply for the next rank. The possibilities are almost unlimited.

In my opinion this would solve several issues:

1) Will cut the DF queue times as there is another incentive for the roles in need to do it.
2) More people would strive to improve themselves to get the rewards.
3) Gives you both challenging solo content (Which this game is lacking) and more stuff to strive for.
4) An alternate way to get gear?

The system as I present it to you, in my opinion, has several potential uses. I took it from old school RPGs where you have a ranking and you need it to unlock content. Since this game loves to copy from WoW, I think that these challenges modes (Which is a variation of what I'm proposing) open more doors than anything.

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Like you, I also miss the proving grounds. It was a neat feature, tied to achievements and rewards. You can even make it so every licence have a list of goals you need to fulfill before you move on, like Wondrous Tails but with both solo trials and group trials (existing ones). Giving status icons is a good insentive. I am thinking about making a thread with the whole suggestion because I like the shape it's getting.

I don't want to sound elitist, pushing or make it look like a job as some people claimed, but seriously... why the hell wouldn't you want to play the game as intended? Tutorials are there for a reason, like it or not. I think the dev team is extremely care bear with their community, then they wonder why their end-game usually fails as nothing really prepares the players for that challenge.