Current reasons for TP:
- To provide out-of-combat content in the form of Invigorate as a skill that should or should not be taken depending on the length of continuous uptime in a fight and whether the party has already taken Tactician.
- To compensate for deaths through an out-of-combat choice if too few people have taken Goad/Tactician.
- To give us a button to press roughly on CD. Only extant exception: O3S during Book phase's Magic Hammers. Exception insignificant. Up to .5 extra actions per minute with wide leniency and no apparent effects outside of one unimpactful mechanic.
- To give us a button not to press if we might die soon, since Invigorate is enough to more than sustain even the highest TP drain rates.
- To give us a button to click to affect party or allies who have been recently resurrected. No effect on casters. Generally worthless if the risen allies have Invigorate. Worthless after LB3.
- To limit continuous AoE as to nerf mass pulls for low-geared TP-based characters without Invigorate, Goad, or Tactician, without having to make any particular enemy particularly threatening. Does not effect parties who can kill the enemy within x GCDs. Does not affect casters. Does not affect those with TP-restorative tools selected. Niche much?
- To gradually devalue Skill Speed. At present, this effect is already eclipsed by CD breakpoints and the scarcity skill speed totals combined with its low effect per point makes this a non-concern. Even at the highest possible amounts of Skill Speed, Invigorate is more than sufficient for all melee DPS to maintain their TP on their own.
Do any of these feel satisfying enough to warrant an entire universal mechanic?
If not, what might warrant it? What all could TP do to make it a worthwhile mechanic?What would you have TP do instead, if you could, to make it interesting?
What is the point of TP by now?
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12-28-2017, 07:23 AMShurrikhanWhat is the point of TP by now?
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12-28-2017, 07:29 AMLeeraSorlan
TP used to be a mechanic you had to optomize, it was possible to run out of TP in ARR and every job even had specific times to use invigorate to better sustain TP, HW still had a sense of that but it became noticable easier to keep up TP, but it was still a resource you had to try and salvage.
IN SB TP issues are 100% gone, its 100% impossible to run out of TP unless you are using Aoes or somehow have like 2000 Skillspeed which is unrealistic.
Even after u die, if u pop invigorate (which WILL be up because youll never need to use it ever) then ur fine for the rest of the fight. -
12-28-2017, 09:35 PMSylvain
There's absolutely no point to it, i was actually expecting them to just be removed in SB with the implementation of the special ressource.
Perhaps next xpac, it'd be nice it would make the party frame smaller with only 2 bars.
The idea that TP also cap melee dps AoE is weird considering range don't have this issue.
I don't see any point to it, why would you cap melee AoE?
The worst is that this is actually only an indrance in dungeon. I can't recall a single boss requiring so much AoE that all melee would run dry. -
12-29-2017, 08:08 PMShurrikhanSadly, not all jobs would have a reason even to have 2 bars, if TP were removed. Monk, Dragoon, Ninja, and Samurai, for instance, are easily imaginable as having some uses for MP, but Warrior? It's wholly feasible to work something in there, but not nearly so obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
Perhaps it could simply go one way or the other, as well, with those who currently have no use for MP still using TP and only TP (or "SP" or whatever alternative resource), but for different uses than as just a very long stamina bar or means of capping AoE and forcing one to click an extra button once in a while, while the rest use just MP.
Or you could go one step further and make everyone use both Stamina/Mana and Spirit (or whatever secondary resource that works more leniently and variably, like PvP TP, or works as a builder-spender instead of an entirely front-loaded resource). It can be whatever, for all I care. But if it's there, it'd better be a real mechanic. -
12-31-2017, 01:29 PMCallinon
With Sprint no longer being tied to TP, its practicality does seem to fall away rather sharply doesn't it?
It seems to be there to stymie physical dps on long fights and really not much else. -
02-06-2018, 05:27 PMDarty123in A9s you could run out of TP just because there was so much uptime on the boss that is the most recent fightQuote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
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02-09-2018, 06:40 AMSylvain
But almost all. Skill got their tp cost reduced so it's not even possible anymore.
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02-11-2018, 12:47 PMCallinonI run out of TP spamming AoEs or dying (or disconnecting :/) but that's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
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02-12-2018, 07:02 AMSylvain
I think it should simply be removed.
If kept, it should work in the same manner as pvp where you use it for powerful move but instead of being capped by cd you're cap by the ressource itself.
I find TP management in pvp much more fun than in over. I mean, it's so useless to see it that I actually cover the bar with the job gauge. -
11-11-2018, 10:18 PMShurrikhan
Bumping because an expansion later this is sadly still just as relevant.
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11-12-2018, 01:06 AMConnor
I also wonder this often, and I think the same can easily be applied to MP. They feel like arbitrary values that have no effect on how I play, especially since I tend to use either Bard or Scholar (and thus have access to refresh/tactician/aetherflow etc).
I understand that they don’t think players can handle having to actively managing MP and TP, but in that case why do they even exist at all? -
11-12-2018, 01:21 AMDuskane
MP is a bit different
Reviving is somewhat punishing or Jobs like BLM and Drk who are built on MP management
TP is rather minor right now but it also stops things becoming too mindless like spamming Over power and another punishment on death even if all Melee DPS have invigorate. -
11-12-2018, 01:28 AMDzian
Honestly preferred it in 1.23b where it was a resource you build in order to smash combos not an infinite resource you consume.
1.23 was a lot more tactical in a choice to use your tp gradually Or keep building and conserving it for a burstier spike of damage -
11-14-2018, 09:05 PMRaikai
I also think it's quite irrelevant, and the only purpose by now is to limit AoE potential of some jobs, which sounds quite bad for a resource.
Heck, if I could hide the TP bar in the party frame, I wouldn't miss it at all.
They need to either make it relevant next xpac or remove it altogether, because as it is right now is just dead weight. -
11-19-2018, 05:29 AMKhalitharHey Shurri, haven't been in one of your posts in a while, how ya livin'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
That being said, let's address the topic at hand. I GUESS THERE IS NO POINT TO TP NOW!
I know it's not what you wanted though. We've had some very engaging discussions in how you do not like them scrapping mechanics whereas I am all for getting rid of unnecessary things. Ditching TP and consolidating our resources to MP is exactly what I wanted.
That being said, it will have far reaching implications for how drk and pld play especially. Along with brd and rdm. The four jobs that (to my recollection) use their MP and their TP to fuel their variety of moves and attacks! -
11-19-2018, 08:35 AMGrimoire-MBard won't care. Foes will be reworked as part of the change, either into a static buff or a new song phase. I'd expect them to keep the raid DPS aspect of it but if it becomes a baseline song I expect it to replace Paeon in the filler rotation without something like a phys/magic split or making it a pure AoE nuke phase to balance it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalithar
RDM kinda does but we already clamoured for them to get more MP regeneration baked into their kits, this will ensure it happens.
PLD I know for sure will survive but hate it due to losing Holy Spirit spam outside req to some degree, but DRK is the biggest unknown for me. It kinda forces them to use DA less but by how much depends on the numbers. -
11-19-2018, 09:06 AMShurrikhanDoing okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalithar
I'm actually pretty happy with the consolidation. If anything, I just think it's still not going far enough, as, whether we do not waste a bar on an utterly unused MP or TP resource (since all but PLD, to all practical extents, use only one resource) does nothing to make simply hitting a button every 2 minutes as soon as it lights up again... compelling.
I don't expect the effects of the change will be all that great, either, honestly, even for the few hybrid jobs. Foe Requiem will likely be bundled into BV and BV reduced to a 2-minute cooldown or similarly changed to a finite duration in some other way. PLD will simply see Riot Blade give back AoE damage resource directly, rather than only indirectly (by healing while the healer AoEs), with true downtime seeming to regenerate mana even more quickly with the lack of drain ticks from weaponskills. DRK will likely feel like Darkside was returned, but in a lesser and per-weaponskill sort of way, that will similarly change very little.
It's brought be back to thinking about the 1.x to ARR transition and TP therein, actually. In those days, I'd actually hoped it would stand as a replacement of a strict combo system. For instance, let's say all combo skills are somewhere between tier-1 and tier-3, with increasing cost and potency as you move up the tiers, but not quite so dynamic as the difference, say, between True Thrust and Full Thrust now (150 to 450). By comboing, you reduce a portion of the TP cost of each combo skill following it until the cost for a long combo would end up nearly TP-neutral -- the TP ticks gained equalling out the cost over the given GCDs. But, as the tier-2 and beyond skills aren't actually stripped of effects or reduced to pitiful potencies when used without combos, you'd still have the option of rushing out a finisher as needed. In that sense, a skill like Invigorate, which I feel would best belong on Dragoon only, would work a lot like combo-acceleration, allowing for a break in the rotation to get a crucial effect up sooner and giving flexibility to what is otherwise a very rotationally rigid job. Ideally, you could also play around with some spectrum bonuses, such as dealing more damage with TP spenders when at high TP, but regenning faster when at low TP, or just having weaponskill potency scale with base TP cost (which combos reduce without reducing damage) and the TP cost be slightly proportionate to your currently available TP (stronger and more expensive at first, but gradually cheapening until typical play is TP-neutral or even TP-positive). That would then have DRGs weighing the benefits of Invigorate against each other, offering a fair bit of nuance and decision-making.
Instead, it looks like we're just going to have yet another go of hitting an extra hotbar slot of button bloat every couple minutes. I'm still happy with the improved UI, but that's all it seems to amount to for now. One less bit of bar bloat, but just as much button bloat. -
11-25-2018, 09:58 AMKaiserdrache
If I woudl have to redesign the ressource System of FF14, especially TP, then I'd make it this way:
HP = Health Points
MP = Magic Points
LP = Limit Points
TP becomes LP
All Classes become now able to perform unique class individual Limit Breaks.
the Game will now then not have anymore only Limit Break Attacks, that can be only performed when the Group fills up together a Limit Bar.
That Limit Bar of a Party will get renamed then to "Team Spirit Bar" and the Skills performed under this System aren't called then anymore Limit Breaks, but instead "Team Combos" and will become redesigned Skills which will be then special Skills only performable together by the Characters of THE SAME ROLE, and only thenm, if all of them are still alive.
So to perform a Team Spirit Combo Skill from the Healers, both of them need to be alive and synchronize their skill usage together.
And so on.
The personal Limit Break for each Class which requires then LP to be full (1000) is then everyones own personal class relative "Special Skill" basically, which are skills with like a potency of like 2000 or so, that every charactre in an instance can use only a limited amount of times, like say for example 2 or 3 times, for game balance I guess 2 is better and it would make people to look after it, when its best to use them, rather than to spam them when they are ready, thats why a limit is necessary there to make these skilsl more meaningful.
Gaining LP would be based on what kind of Limit Style you have chosen for your character, exactly like in FFX, where you can decide, what exactly should let your progress increase, like should it be received damage, or dealt damage, or cured health, or whatever ...
Based on what you have chosen, the done actions in game let you differently effectively gain LP faster or slower. In regard of how fast you gain LP, this will decide also about it then, what kind of potency bonus your Special Attack will receive, or what kind of Special Attack you will perform basically with faster charging up LP methods being literally weaker Limits, than slower charging up ones, so that the players also have here again some kind of build diversity choice in regard of how fast they want to build up LP for their special attacks, which suits the most to your personal play style best.
With TP not existign anymore with the next expansion, gettign merged with MP, and thus meanign, that all classes need to get rebalanced and reworked around this change, doesn't mean, that a kind of limitated ressource of 1000 points-mechanic can't get used for somethign completely different, like here with my concept of enabling us all to have individual own unique Limit Breaks, while making in fact the performing of the special group based LB a bit more complicated to trigger, therefore, that they become in return a bit more powerful and useful in overfall, with the little hook, that using them then needs having from then all all characters of a role having alive, so that they can't be used anymore just only by a single person of the group (which would solve also the issue of someone accidently wasting an important LB of the party in the middle of combat, if more than 1 person would have to trigger it together and need to be of the same role being alive.) -
11-25-2018, 12:35 PMReinhardt_Azureheim
@shurrikhan
Have you considered the option that weaponskills simply wont cost anything and that MP usage would largely stay the same for things like Foe Requiem, Holy Spirit windows and so on? It would break current PLD if weaponskills would cost MP and I dont think there is a smart option for a physical-magical hybrid going 5.0.
RDM weapon (unenchanted) are generally awful compared to even Jolt I + Verspell enders. Even Moulinet would be a waste with 80 potency when Scatter has 110. So TP cost never really limited weaponskills on RDM; balance gauge did.
PLD TP costs on any of the comboskills does jack, it only limits Total Eclipse in long aoe pulls and Shield Lob + bash. Lob would simply be cost-free, bash be made ogcd. Total Eclipse is kinda meh and apart from subpar dungeonpulls it isnt worth the hassle to put it on MP to limit it only to rework the mp economy around riot blade and sheltron.
All that aside I think getting rid of costs on weaponskills gets rid of punishment for skillspeed builds or generally fast gcd jobs like samurai and monk, which is good imo. -
11-25-2018, 01:49 PMShurrikhanI have considered that option, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
To be clear, though, I do not think weaponskills spending from the consolidated stat would "break" PLD, or DRK or RDM for that matter. The costs can be made TP-neutral, meaning that the only difference to, say, PLD's MP-regeneration period would be that Riot Blade would need do a bit more of the work, or that Requiescat itself would have to be slightly adjusted. It could, for instance, change instead to a skill which grants MP based on current (e.g. 25% of current) before granting its buff regardless of mana level, while granting its buff regardless of current MP. For a full Req window, one would still need the same number of Riot Blade casts, changing nothing to gameplay, though the phase would begin at 80% MP, up from 100% (again, just a difference in on-screen numbers, not to decisions or gameplay). A DRK, unless DA cost and Maximum MP are both reduced, would have slightly fewer DA casts per minute in this fashion, but DA potency has only been lowered as far as it has because of its increased rate. When rate is decreased, potency can and must simply increase in compensation. At worst, this would simply add more burst synergy/multiplicity to DRK where it previously had the least among the tanks. RDM could still have costs attached to Riposte, Zwerchau, and Redoublement -- they'd just have to be in line with the relative cost of weaponskills to TP classes or any of their basic spells to their overall mana pool. Make them each cost what Jolt costs, for instance. And when Enchanted, perhaps then you could make them cost absolutely nothing, as a bonus; the mana cost was already spent in the process of enchanting those skills. Same for Moulinet and Enchanted Moulinet. Match it to Scatter or the (now much reduced) relative cost of AoE weaponskills initially and then make it free when Enchanted.
Though I've considered both systems, I prefer weaponskill spending over neglected/omitted spending so long as other jobs still spend resource for the basic use of their weaponskills. Though PLD made virtually no rotational use of MP prior to Heavensward outside of AoE pulls, using Flash only as a filler, Flash still consumed MP. Even on a WAR, Flash consumed MP, and at the exact same cost. I like that consistency. If a Monk must pay to True Strike, a Paladin should -- on the surface -- pay to Flash or Savage Blade; they just shouldn't pay for it in any practical or throughput-limiting sense, which are costs each easy enough to avoid.
Again, I'd prefer to remove TP/MP costs from all basic weaponskills and spells, using the additional cost as a sort of Stamina Bar for emergency or capitalizing increased output, more similar to how Dark Arts functions now or to how TP functions in PvP. But as long as weaponskills cost something, let them all cost something. I believe that consistency is worth the minor rebalancing of costs/regains it would require.
Let's touch briefly here on AoE, ranged, and utility resource spending (as per Bash and Lob).Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
I think physical classes should be held to no more or less additional throughput cost for AoEing than casters are. It's as simple as that. I'd prefer that every skill which looks like an AoE be an AoE, and the current AoEs be given at least situational use in ST. Short of that, I'd at least like RDM's physical options to be, in themselves, damage-even with spellcasting (though the lack of W/B mana generation will put it behind later). But if only the simplest solution is permitted, then let there at least be balance.
Likewise, no caster would ever pay unreasonably for ranged skills; casters may pay for mobility in terms of potency, as with unenchanted RDM melee skills or BLM's Scathe, or very, very little in MP as per Ruin II, but never both. Melee ranged skills, therefore, should either have reduced costs (if this alone, normal costs), or reduced potency loss (such as through combo integration and reduced cost when less charged).
I do not, however, believe that Bash should be free or made oGCD. It is valuable, but expensive, utility and is better off for its differences in that regard. That it might cost a Holy Spirit under Requiescat if unable to provide a single safety margin use of Riot Blade is fine to me.
If you get rid of it for everyone, leaving the bar completely absent of use, so be it. But I do not wish to get rid of it for some and leave it for some others; I'd rather finagle what I can in the background to use the same standard costs without affecting any loss to gameplay or throughput.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
That being said, the punishment for Skill Speed builds and faster GCD jobs can be solved far, far more simply than any systematic change to costs: just have TP/MP tick per GCD, and get rid of the need for Invigorate and Lucid Dreaming, and make Goad and Refresh increase the tick value instead of using a separate tick. Voila, now high-SkS and -SpS builds are equally efficient as low-speed ones. -
11-25-2018, 02:09 PMReinhardt_Azureheim
While I admire your thoughts on the matter, this all seems unnecessary extra reworks if the easiest solution would be to baseline remove TP costs from weaponskills instead of all the various resource reworks.
I also disagree on the sentiment of Bash utility, given Low Blow is a cross role ability available six levels prior to shield bash for only one second less duration but realistically more gcd uptime. If your fear would be PLD having two stuns at ogcd being too good, I'd either:
1.) Put Low Blow (current) back on DRK, making Bash equal to LBlow and readding brutal swing with same stats on WAR
2.) Keep Lowblow in reworked 5.0 crossrole system.
But yes, I am indeed talking about baseline removal of costs for weaponskills on all jobs that currently use TP for them - at very least singletarget if I am forced to compromise.
EDIT:
Keep in mind that melees pay for ranged weaponskills with them breaking combos unlike ranged dps that dont have a fixed combo gameplay as their primary way of fighting (yet). Ideal rotations exist obviously, but they are more flexible in when to use what. -
11-25-2018, 06:04 PMShurrikhanThat changes things greatly then. With what would you replace TP costs, seeing all but two of those jobs have no MP costs either?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
That's why I mentioned either or both of combo integration and increased potency or zero additional cost being necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
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11-27-2018, 12:15 AMDRKoftheAzure
Need more uses for TP to justify Goad, Invigorate, and Tactician on Role Action...
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11-28-2018, 12:16 PMRollout
I'm in the camp where I think they're just going to remove the cost from weaponskills. It just sounds silly for any sort of physical ability to cost magic points. Plus, in the case of big pulls, melee and physical ranged users are at a disadvantage for AoEing compared to casters. Most of the casters have some form of low-cost AoE, whether it be an AoE DoT or just a low-cost ability, and the ability to very rapidly restore MP while still expending it. Invigorate restores only 400TP, which will be gone in three attacks, Tactician is on a long cooldown and doesn't seem to be as strong as Refresh, and Goad is unreliable because you have to have someone else cast it on you.
Plus, TP costs just discourages the use of Skill Speed in most cases and consolidating the resource into MP will just result in the same thing. I wanna see us going into the expansion and maybe going Crit > SkS > DH > Det or Crit > DH > SkS > Det. -
11-28-2018, 01:04 PMShurrikhanCould anyone supply the exact quotes on the later updated info on TP removal? When last I saw the exact quotes, during the keynotes, it sounded like TP was being removed in the sense of being consolidated with MP, meaning that we'd see one resource, just MP or just TP, or just some new single resource (SP?), and anything that made TP consumption significantly different from MP consumption were being removed/normalized (such as greatly more expensive AoE/ranged costs).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollout
If it really does turn into just MP, then I'm right with you guys -- it makes no sense for purely physical attacks to consume MP. But I wonder, will it then just be another dead resource on physical classes so that the next step is to give us only HP, or will there be new MP interactions a la the stronger but more limited (due to significant drain cost) Monk elemental fists in 1.x? -
11-28-2018, 01:29 PMRolloutMost people assume that consolidating the two resources together would make them just MP, because MP is a far bigger staple to Final Fantasy than anything else. I highly doubt they'll change it to something like SP. Yoshida is somewhat adamant on keeping classic/staple FF skills in the game. It's why we still have Protect, despite the fact that it's very dumb to have it, because all the fights get balanced around it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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12-27-2018, 03:26 PMSandparkHere you go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...shida_summary/
I am not completely sure but it seems TP on the whole is getting removed and not replaced with a different global resource. No more Invigorate, Goad, or Tactician. Sounds like each job will be getting it's own resource or non caster skills not costing any resource.Will Monk skills cost Lightning gauge? Chakras? Or a new resource? Will most common skills not cost a resource at all? Will Purification get the axe or will it replenish a new or different resource?Quote:
Merging TP and MP in 5.0
It's more about "removing TP", rather than merging TP with MP.
Invigorate and tactician will be removed.
They are going to have a huge revamp for role actions as well, so there might be parts that feel totally different.
They don't want to add more actions (note: The context here is, they don't want to fill up the hotbars), so there will move actions that are removed or merged with other actions.
They've also already decided the direction they are going with "resistance down" type of actions.
TP and MP conversation from the interview:
Famitsu writer: You said you're merging MP and TP, but it feels like quite a drastic decision. Can you please tell us why?
Yoshida: To simply put it, melee jobs aren't fighting caring about their TP anymore. The only time they do care is, after they are revived and the dev team is balancing the game around that, meaning that TP is no longer a part of the strategy. However with MP, if a healer continues to randomly cast spells, they will run out of MP. If you add raise to the menu, it makes it worse. Players manage their MP with lucid dreaming and actions like mana shift to support them. TP and MP have gone down 2 different paths.
MP has a reason to exist because managing your MP is a part of skill, but TP has totally lost that purpose. Now that sprint doesn't use TP, the TP bar is just floating there because it feels like it. You rarely run out and new players won't understand why it even exists.
Famitsu writer: Maybe.
Yoshida: Even though it has lost most of its purpose, it's still in your face and it just adds something that new players wonder what it's for and also makes the UI complicated. If that's the case, we simply thought it was better to merge it with MP.
We wanted to make resource management as simple as possible. Because you need to keep track of DoTs, GCDs and timers on abilities while fighting, we thought it was necessary to make the base system simple and instead, have each of the jobs be more different from each other. This direction was important when we were making new actions and we thought "we don't need tp anymore".
Resistance down actions have been decided on. Is that complete removal? Are they being baked into GCD combos? Perhaps they are added to traits active when under the effect of Greased Lightning 1,2,3 and are cumulative per stack? It is true, I never run into TP issues unless I just died or we are spamming AOE for far too long killing too many monsters at one time than we should be due to them hitting like gnats. -
12-27-2018, 04:44 PMShurrikhanHmm, it's hard to say from this if we'll be going from two dead resources to one or if the surviving resource will be an actual mechanic to work with and around. I certainly hope it'll be the second, so that melee (outside of PLD & DRK) aren't essentially just left with HP bars, but I'm seeing no reason to believe that from what we've seen here or in the original keynotes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpark
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12-30-2018, 09:45 AMSylvain
From what i uneerstand TP will be remived and everyone will have mp. Now wether or not there will be actual mp management from melee ( like pld and drk) is a different story.
Perhaps (for melee) it will be used to fuel some situational skill / cross eole actions such as second wind. -
12-30-2018, 10:00 AMAnimaAnimusCould easily see them justify it by doing this...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollout
"To execute skills you must draw upon your personal aether, represented by MP."
But it still would be silly unless they are tied to more specific sets of moves. Normal punches, sword swings or pew pews shouldn't cost aether. Otherwise anything that is exerting, even walking or running like we do as default, should technically cost aether too. Personally I think this would work better if we had the XI system or building up TP to use for specific moves. Would certainly make combat more interesting and tactical.