No real value in killing players in RW

I find it a little strange that killing players in a pvp mode doesn't do anything aside from possibly inconveniencing them (or not, if they were planning on going back to base anyway) and giving you a soaring stack.
What if killing a player while on foot would steal a portion of that players' party's ceruleum?

Aside from working the push/pull of Soaring buffs, there really is no benefit to a player KO, nor a penalty for being KOed besides losing Soaring stacks.

I was in an Oppressor firing the last shot on the enemy's north tower once while a single BRD was just going to town on me. Soon as the missile was out, I ejected, sat down, and let them take me out, purely for the faster way back (and partially to say "everything you just did doesn't matter, I got your tower anyways").

Unfortunately, this seems to be the direction SE wants to take PvP in, especially when they get rid of the one Frontline mode that was effectively Team Deathmatch. I've got no problem with objective-based PvP, but rendering defeating other players pointless kinda makes the whole concept of player vs player kinda pointless, no?

I agree completely and have had my share of similar experiences. I really think it would be interesting to see a mechanic where killing a player takes a portion of that persons ceruleum or something, anything, to make killing someone worthwhile.

I want the opposite. It's very easy to get high kills with chasers, it should give us their cereleum. Sort of balancing the healer mammet push if they don't want to nerf it. If person drops cereleum then we're basically replacing mammets, the balance will be thrown off even further.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I've got no problem with objective-based PvP, but rendering defeating other players pointless kinda makes the whole concept of player vs player kinda pointless, no?

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Implying that the point of PvP is to defeat other players. We have a dedicated role whose entire point and purpose is to prevent the defeat of players and thus go against that very point. And it does it exceedingly well. Does SE have to make themselves any clearer on what they think of the point of PvP?

Truth be told, Soaring is already more than some other objective based modes offer. If you boot up a shooter and play some capture the flag, you'll usually get nothing for killing players at all, killing players is merely a means to get the objective done, to pave the way for your flag carrier, get your flag back or kill the enemy carrier so yours can score. It's looking similar in King of the Hill, where kills outside the hill usually don't matter, and even though I haven't played WoW in a while, their battlegrounds used to not have a big emphasis on kills either. The main benefit of killing people in objective based PvP generally is that you can actually claim the objective (for a while) and score some points through that.

And Rival Wings isn't too bad in that regard. Mammets, mid and CE tanks are all worth contesting and even the mechs, i.e. the prize for winning the objectives can be fought on foot to some degree. There is ample point in fighting other players in most places of the map, whether on foot or especially inside mechs. The main issue is just that contesting objectives tends to be a pretty meh experience overall and sometimes downright impossible for no reason other than job "balance".

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Implying that the point of PvP is to defeat other players.

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It is.

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We have a dedicated role whose entire point and purpose is to prevent the defeat of players and thus go against that very point. And it does it exceedingly well.

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In previous modes kills awarded points and took points away from the enemy team. Healers being a little too strong after the large 4.0 change doesn't invalidate kills.

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you'll usually get nothing for killing players at all

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CoD gives kill streaks, even in objective modes. Overwatch gives points towards your ult. Regardless, this game isn't a shooter and it's not really relevant.

I don't disagree that RW is kind of ok in terms of objectives to do on foot, but nearly all of them are best done while stacking as many healers as possible because there is little reason to be anything else right now.

In Shatter and Seize, when you kill other players, you gain five points from them and they lose five points from their team. They moved away from this, mostly I believe because it didn't actually work for good gameplay. It wound up further penalizing the last place team and benefitting the first overall, rather than give a good back and forth. It got to the point where players often farmed the last place team in between objectives because of points, or even in the case of seal rock spawn camped them. The only reason it didn't end up in the same as Feast was that the medal mechanics made farming less efficient over time and provided a huge catchup mechanic at the end of the match.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

In Shatter and Seize, when you kill other players, you gain five points from them and they lose five points from their team.

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Or if you were good you could make a comeback from last place. I have overcome a 500 point deficit in Shatter and a 200 point deficit in Seize without spawn camping.

Kills should mean something because it rewards the players who actually know how to PvP. Just like memorizing a pattern rewards you in PvE.

If you were good you weren't in last place to start with. In practice, kills and battle highs just made the best team win even harder, and be more difficult to gain against.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

If you were good you weren't in last place to start with. In practice, kills and battle highs just made the best team win even harder, and be more difficult to gain against.

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You really haven't pvp'ed much. Gracidea Shaymin (someone you should know from primal if you really did PvP) was notorious for her group focusing on kills and neglecting ice. Which often put them in last place at the start since ice would go to 1 of the other 2 teams. Slowly but surely as they would be building up highs/fevers they would steam roll the rest of the teams. Then once that happened ice became irrelevant as they would just steamroll the other 3 teams.

Nah, I played with her. she isn't that good. She plays healer mostly, its more that yeah, if you had an organized premade versus randoms you might pull that off, or too often you might just lose period because the other team was getting ice and nodes uncontested while they were wasting time on the other team. Or if the other team could actually fight back (instead of farming the last place cause no premades there lol or even no healers, thats how they built those highs) you lost too. So much of the pvpers in this game relied on premades aganst randoms more than any real amount of skill.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Nah, I played with her. she isn't that good. She plays healer mostly, its more that yeah, if you had an organized premade versus randoms you might pull that off, or too often you might just lose period because the other team was getting ice and nodes uncontested while they were wasting time on the other team. Or if the other team could actually fight back (instead of farming the last place cause no premades there lol or even no healers, thats how they built those highs) you lost too. So much of the pvpers in this game relied on premades aganst randoms more than any real amount of skill.

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The only thing is premades ensured a specific amount of coordination which sometimes randoms tend to not have (it is not a measure of skill). It is the same reason people run statics versus DF/PF. Also as a point of clarification Graci is good you don't top healing charts by being bad, she kept her team up and also her team protected her (which is also a rare in a group on randoms). Also you have set yourself up to not really discuss a skill conversation from your prior comments which thoroughly showed your lack of understanding of even simple CC skills, abilities, etc.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

So much of the pvpers in this game relied on premades aganst randoms more than any real amount of skill.

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Pretty much the most accurate statement I've seen from you ever.

Because in a player vs player mode, there ought to be some kind of benefit or gain to a direct skirmish between players. There ought to be a POINT to direct combat. Mechs are just large targets that do a lot of damage, mammets are passive targets that act as more of a resource than combatant. Right now, you inconvenience an enemy player at best by defeating them. Sometimes that's actually more beneficial to them as it allows for a faster regroup/reposition.

No one's surprised, but fact is, some of us come ready to fight. Hell, I stay out of mechs mostly for the challenge of taking enemy mechs down on foot, or because I can do, and effect far more out of one than in.

There are points to direct combat during mammet spawns, gathering CE, defending mechs, and fighting at mid. There's actually a lot more forced pvp than in shatter, where you had to ignore players overall when big ice showed up, and the ice structure often made it unfeasible to attack people. The issue is that healers more or less stall out most attempts at it, so its better to run. Also, there's not that much symmetric pvp, so what you get can often be brief and onesided.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

There's actually a lot more forced pvp than in shatter, where you had to ignore players overall when big ice showed up, and the ice structure often made it unfeasible to attack people.

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I should link you Lace's how to Shatter guide as ignoring opponents attacking ice is not a wise idea. They die they do less points on ice than you and you get points for their kill. So it was PvP but you chose to do the PvE objective.

There's arguably less PvP to be had in RW, mid contests and mammet clashes aside. I don't quite consider going against the mechs to count, as there's a rather odd power swing there. Mechs can do a lot of damage, but they're SO vulnerable, even a Brute if you can close the gap (they have trouble targeting you at that point).

And back in Shatter, yes, NEVER ignore players for ice. If you turn your back on an attacking enemy to run for ice, they'll just follow, run over you, and get the ice anyways. Drop off a cliff to reach the ice first? Go check out my "Plus Five" video to see why that was a bad idea.

Man, it hurts inside to admit Shatter actively promoted more direct combat than RW does. . .

Lace I have to post this.

https://www.bestinslot.co/ffxiv-shat...ine-pvp-guide/

You know it is worth listening to when people want to post it on their own website.

Oh by all means! I actually forgot it was posted there. I'm glad it could be useful!

Third, if you are at a big ice while everyone is wailing on it, the worst thing you can do is ignore it and try to take down players. This often ends up with your team missing out on 100-200 points from ice, and not getting anywhere near the same amount in kills. If that teams healers can delay the attacking team long enough, its a huge loss for the attackers. And healers in general if they are smart ignore direct dpsing the ice to watch for people trying to do that, since all dpsing as a healer does is drain your MP quickly for little relative benefit. It was the same in seal rock, when the node was low enough you didn't stay to kill people, you disengaged to be ready for next node. A lot of times people lost the game not turning their back on a team and slugging it out, giving the third team the ability to cap nodes and get a lot of passive points while the other side stayed the same.

I kind of wonder who you are fighting that you can so easily win via kills.

Usually cliff jumpers, anyone with 50% HP or less, enemy Battle Highs/Fevers, healers, or someone foolish enough to try to focus only on the ice and not even attempt to defend themselves. And naturally, anyone who tried to attack me first.

It's a lesser known fact that if ice resets - that is usually by wiping out the enemy team(s) there - you can score all 300 points from it, even if the ice was left at 1%. This is NOT easy to do, and requires a lot of coordination, not to mention your team knowing it's possible in the first place.

That aside, I think the only time I ever DID hit ice in the later days of Shatter (both pre and post-4.0) was if there was literally nothing else to shoot. Seize was different. You HAD to fight. Fight your way in, fight your way out; make the other team not want to chase you for fear of losing points. Shatter however, had people trying to promote "ice > kills" and that more often than not cost them. It's also worth noting that playing multiple objectives offset the importance of large ice. If you couldn't get into hit it, take some bases, take out some players. When all small ices activated first, it would be a while before the first large ice: PVP TIME! Those who tried to wait for the ice while the other two fought often found themselves in third place if they didn't act.

You're correct, if the enemy healers at the ice could stop you from getting kills then it was a huge waste to target players. That was the nice thing about being able to adapt in a mode that had multiple ways to win. Not every match had great (or any) enemy healers. RW feels so cookie cutter in almost all the matches played.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Third, if you are at a big ice while everyone is wailing on it, the worst thing you can do is ignore it and try to take down players. This often ends up with your team missing out on 100-200 points from ice, and not getting anywhere near the same amount in kills.

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Getting Battle Fever as AST in Shatter I can tell say you are way off base as I secured kills of people getting to ice and at ice because other healers were attacking it because the motto was "Do as much damage to ice as possible". My group would pick off people at ice while the other parties would focus ice. One Party out of 3 could easily secure kills at ice and would net more points overall. 4-6 dps focusing one person. Also made the mop up faster. Even if they got 150 on ice we got 50 with 10 kills we would be balanced. A good coordinated alliance could easily prevent any other alliance from even touching the ice.

Yup. This entirely. You could literally negate ice gains by aggressively attacking other teams.

Killing in rival wings is so unsatisfying. That and just getting shatter with ice people have turned me off from pvp until they make the roulette better.

Killing people is fun. And then you teabag. UwU

I love antagonizing people in Rival Wings by attacking them with Stone or Malefic and then laughing at them - especially when it's a group.

I love getting them to chase me for 5 minutes while they ignore objectives. Last night had 6 of them chasing me before I finally died. Laughed all the way to the spawn point.

If you try the opposite, not killing anyone or only a few, it's very long and tiring. Had a match like that fighting for mid. Ravens had it for 5 mins, Falcons for 5 mins, the rest 10 mins everyone was stuck in mid and it switched hands back and forth. Both sides had equally many healers and as good, only few died. Yes I know we can go for other objectives but I was tanking/didn't die and we were all too stubborn to leave or give up mid. That's the most pvp in RW but getting carpal tunnel wasn't on the plan at first.

ps. not sure if I ever saw a Draw condition, do both teams win if no towers is down?

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Originally Posted by uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu

ps. not sure if I ever saw a Draw condition, do both teams win if no towers is down?

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Both teams win.

Had a match with 97 vs 97 on the cores at the end o:

Taking down an opponent has never been too much of an issue for me, not even in RW, but defiantly, I've been just ignoring them lately. Or just Blanking them off the nearest bridge/ledge. Unless of course they're persistent, then it's time to get Laced™, lol. I aggressively attack mechs like they owe me money, and generally focus objectives as hard as possible to put pressure on the enemy. I'm definitely in it for the PvP, but it's interesting how often that can prove to be a bigger distraction from the main objectives, and inversely, how not actively PvPing in favor objectives can move a game along quickly.

If I know an enemy tower's going down, expect to see me already moving for the next objective. Like, I'll literally disengage and move before the enemy team can try to reposition or respond. Offensive pressure is so strong in this mode it's insane.