DRK Suggestion for more damage and skill ceiling

Will help improving DRK's dmg and make it fun:

Bring back Scourge (with 30 second duration), make it an ability branching off of siphon strike, while not making it affected by DA.

Adding Scourge will also make you have to align it's refresh at times where you won't have DW + Delirium (40 second CD) and overcap mana by not using DA. Since it's 30 sec, you can also align it with TA, Litany, etc.

Scourge DoT ticks have a 20% chance to give you a buff that makes your next ability have the effect of DA. 15 second buff (a bit longer than DA). This gives DRK more damage and makes C&S + DA less frustrating to land without clipped GCD.

Make Dark Passenger 140 potency (the same potency that is gained from DA for most abilities) so that it makes no difference mana-wise whether you use that or DA. Can help with getting rid of mana quickly in case of overcap with DW.

Just thought of this and figured it would be worth considering. I think that sums up the concept behind my idea?

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Originally Posted by Logigo

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Can we also make Scourge do damage down and vuln up by certain % for seconds on top of DoT and the DoT damage generates blood gauge?

I would prefer to re-work Dark Arts so it doesn't require constant MP usage for DPS when you need TBN as well as fixing what resources TBN should use...

Make Dark Passenger have varying effects based on whether or not Dark Arts is active like another Scourge but can stack with scourge debuffs...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

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Keep the technical limitation of 60 buffs / debuffs per target in mind and don't forget that this also needs to work out for 24-man or higher content.

Damage down on boss on a combo? We had this in Heavensward with Storm's Path on Warrior and it made Warrior a must-pick. No.

Vulnerability up? If only for the DRK, make it a buff to damage instead (see Storm's Eye). If raid-wide, NO. This would be more broken than HW Storm's Path, turning into the absolute must-pick.

DoT is fine, but giving it extra BG per tick isn't good. Rather give it 5-8 blood when executed as a combo skill so it isn't completely useless for blood gain compared to SE.

Rather than reworking Dark Arts to be like this I'd rather rework / adjust TBN and keep MP for offensive abilities. Or buff Shadow Wall perhaps.

Dark Passenger only needs the 140-150 potency back to have any use in the DRK single-target rotation, otherwise its a waste.

I really fail to understand why people want scourge back. It is a dull spell and if the only reason you want it back is the DPS gain, there's plenty of other ways to fix DRK damage.
I don't see how bringing it back has anything to do with skill ceiling, smashing one more key every 30sec isn't hard, it's just there.
And what, if dps isn't there we put another DoT? perhaps a third one also so we have 3 key to smash every 30sec, this would make some interesting game play.
Press skill a,b,c once every 30sec

There are more important things that need to be adressed first, the lameness of living dead (basically a bad Holm Gang), the lack of raid wide utility, two of our skill being totally useless.

Dark knight shouldn't really need raid wide utility you can buff its damage and defensive capabilities. It a Dark knight its already doing its job protecting you by tanking the boss.

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

Dark knight shouldn't really need raid wide utility you can buff its damage and defensive capabilities. It a Dark knight its already doing its job protecting you by tanking the boss.

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To compensate for this Dark Knight needs damage, lots and lots of damage.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

To compensate for this Dark Knight needs damage, lots and lots of damage.

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Agreed or defenses that surpass the other tanks.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

To compensate for this Dark Knight needs damage, lots and lots of damage.

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didn't even note that I said defensive also.

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

didn't even note that I said defensive also.

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Yeah, because buff our damage again for defense. Literally the only thing that might make dark knight a choice over any other job for tank at this point is damage. I have no hope that they will rework skills. So just keep buffing dark knights output until people play it again.

Also wasn’t aware I needed to note every single thing someone put in their post. Thought I might just agree with the part that I do.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I really fail to understand why people want scourge back. It is a dull spell and if the only reason you want it back is the DPS gain, there's plenty of other ways to fix DRK damage.
I don't see how bringing it back has anything to do with skill ceiling, smashing one more key every 30sec isn't hard, it's just there.
And what, if dps isn't there we put another DoT? perhaps a third one also so we have 3 key to smash every 30sec, this would make some interesting game play.
Press skill a,b,c once every 30sec

There are more important things that need to be adressed first, the lameness of living dead (basically a bad Holm Gang), the lack of raid wide utility, two of our skill being totally useless.

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Because the animation was incredible and needs to return. It was by far the most satisfying ability to use in the game.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Agreed or defenses that surpass the other tanks.

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In my opinion, I think that Dark Knight presents the developers with a difficulty when tuning. On the one hand, Dark Knight should be tuned so that using dark arts and TBN in an average non pushing way, Dark Knight will break even in all areas with the other tanks. The problem comes from pushing, if I spend all my resources on damage, then I expect that I will no longer break even, in fact I would expect that dark knight will surpass the others while being a bit squishy, if I spend all my resources on mitigation then I expect dark knight to be more defensive than any other tank while putting out worse numbers. What they developers have done instead to remedy this is to make it so that when we invest entirely in one area we break even with the other tanks. And this is where the dark knight issue is, we cannot break even in one area and drop everything else and be desireable, no other tank needs to make that choice and so this just becomes a reason to not run dark knight. I think that is why dark knight feels so held back at times, they don't want it to completely surpass the other tanks by investing all its resources into one area or by gaining more resources and being able to invest in multiple areas.

We see this design in so much of dark knight:
1. Party Mana Refresh: you cannot regenerate mana from outside sources unless you drop darkside. Even though this benefits paladin as well, for dark knight its held back by canceling the effect. You can have Darkside for damage, but not mana refresh for damage.

2. Mana Generation: In grit we generate more mana from our combo, when we drop grit we gain blood weapon but lose the bonus mana from the combo. These are close to canceling eachother out by a few hundred mana out of 14.5k mana (I analyzed this in an older post if interested it was also analyzed by SzyleSpark). Blood Weapon's offensive cooldown is just a speed up and extra blood generation (as well as squeezing our grit mana generation over 40 seconds into 15 seconds).

3. On demand mitigation: TBN is just shy of a break even to use(when not in grit see the next point for when in grit), and is unique in this aspect. Paladin has sheltron which procs shield swipe for 150 potency attacks. If warrior is in defiance Inner Beast is a large dps gain over their combo (though deliverance is way better regardless.). Yes, we can put this shield on others, but as has been pointed out, a 5k shield on a dps or current MT once every 15 seconds doesn't do much.

4. DPS bonuses present in defensive stances: TBN is actually really good, if you are in grit since bloodspiller has bonus potency both in its base and when used with dark arts. You generate more mana in grit with siphon strike bonuses and blood price than out of grit with blood weapon. Dark Knight kit is designed in such a way that dps bonuses are available only in a stance which punishes dark knight dps. Paladin generates more gauge in sword oath than in shield leading to more free sheltrons to proc shield swipe, warrior has resource cuts in deliverance but not in defiance. Only Dark Knight is designed backwards giving you dps/resource bonuses when you are in tank stance.

This is on top of the stuff I would already expect of a resource tank. What is it that I expect? Well I expect that if I have to spend resources to power up moves that I can either:
a. Do Damage (example: Carve and Spit)
b. Power up mitigation (example: Dark Mind)

but may need to choose between these two things.

We don't see this kind of thing on another tank though. Consider warrior, also in many respects a resource based tank. They can either spend their resources on mitigating or doing dps. However, their mitigation kit is designed in such a way as to allow them to ignore spending resources on mitigation! This "flaw" in their kit is actually designed around, imagine if such a philosophy was implemented with dark knight.

Drk got an serious issue it needs changes.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I really fail to understand why people want scourge back.

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I want the animation.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

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The issue with TBN is that the other tank's do not have an equivalent of gain defensive bonus and get refunded the damage. Aside from Sheltron maybe adding a bit that wasn't already given from passive shield blocks, WAR's equivalent being Innerbeast or Fell Cleave and Unchained or Infuriate are genuine hard losses and pigeon hole WAR into Deliverance onri.

As a concept I enjoy the idea of TBN alot in which excellent mitigation = more effective DPS = obvious value increase. But it is difficult to balance unless the other tanks also enjoy that concept.

But the problem isn't so much the concept of TBN.

It's the HUGE GAPING HOLE OF OTHER COOLDOWNS that surround TBN.

War honestly never bloody needed Rampart and DRK NEEDS Shadowskin back(ontop of Rampart).

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

The issue with TBN is that the other tank's do not have an equivalent of gain defensive bonus and get refunded the damage. Aside from Sheltron maybe adding a bit that wasn't already given from passive shield blocks, WAR's equivalent being Innerbeast or Fell Cleave and Unchained or Infuriate are genuine hard losses and pigeon hole WAR into Deliverance onri.

As a concept I enjoy the idea of TBN alot in which excellent mitigation = more effective DPS = obvious value increase. But it is difficult to balance unless the other tanks also enjoy that concept.

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As stated, paladin has sheltron shield swipe synergy, Warrior has counter attacks on vengeance. The place where damage for mitigating is missing is on dark knight.

Some changes that I hope will happen:

1. TBN increased to 6 seconds from 5 seconds.
2. Dark Arts now affects Shadow Wall. Reduce damage by 40% when buffed with Dark Arts.
3. Living Dead has a doom counter graphic on the player counting down from five seconds when under the effect of "Walking Dead". Time graphic expires when player is healed to 100% prematurely or if it reaches 0.
4. Dark Passenger costs no mp. DA buff is still the same.

Dark Arts animation a bit to long I think. It should go out a bit faster for smoother rotation.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Some changes that I hope will happen:

1. TBN increased to 6 seconds from 5 seconds.
2. Dark Arts now affects Shadow Wall. Reduce damage by 40% when buffed with Dark Arts.
3. Living Dead has a doom counter graphic on the player counting down from five seconds when under the effect of "Walking Dead". Time graphic expires when player is healed to 100% prematurely or if it reaches 0.
4. Dark Passenger costs no mp. DA buff is still the same.

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1. Sure yeah i'll take that, even one second more there is pretty good and handy.
2. ...bleh. So the Dark Knight would have to use yet more of its mana to get a slightly upgraded defensive. I don't think that's really a buff, it's just kinda shifting the problem a little
3. That would be pretty sweet
4. Helllll yes.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Keep the technical limitation of 60 buffs / debuffs per target in mind and don't forget that this also needs to work out for 24-man or higher content.

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1 word: stacks.

It works for when you screw up a boss mechanic or boss mechanics just naturally cause something that makes a status ailment to stack like an add, why wouldn't it work for player abilities? Also see MNK

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I really fail to understand why people want scourge back.

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I just want Heavensward Delirium weaponskill combo back, even if they have to call it Scourge... that animation was way better and it got reduced to crappy silence for all tanks that doesn't even do damage... (Yet NIN got to keep their Silence with damage and DRG and MNK got to keep their damaging stuns...) if PLDs can keep their built-in stun and same with certain melee DPS as well NIN keeping silence THAT CAN DO DAMAGE then there is no excuse why everyone should have their own unique flavor of stun/silence... and that is 1 of the biggest things I HATE ABOUT ROLE ACTIONS!

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

As stated, paladin has sheltron shield swipe synergy, Warrior has counter attacks on vengeance. The place where damage for mitigating is missing is on dark knight.

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My point is that it needs to be a more central theme on the tanks rather than a single casual side effect. Dark Knight holds TBN as damage for mitigating potentially and is an actual clear bonus in Grit.

It's just a numbers thing to make that happen but it needs to be done more.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

My point is that it needs to be a more central theme on the tanks rather than a single casual side effect.

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I'll agree that it is more clear for the potential of this on dark knight. My point is that it already is a theme and it started on warrior and is essentially missing on dark knight with the removal of our dark dance and reprisal. Vengeance was originally introduced with a counter attack, yes its primary use is mitigation now but this isn't just some side effect (fun fact the counter attack initially was the entire point, 2.1 buffed this to include damage down). Paladin continues this use with tools like sheltron and cover, cover your target and bulwark them to try and proc your shield swipe twice as off tank. And sheltron can be used in aoe situations as off tank or when not actively tanking to proc the skill which would not otherwise proc, you can also get your sheltron uses to force your shield swipe procs when actively tanking to optimize your usage and damage. My point is that this has alot more uses than one might initially expect than just a "side effect".

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Dark Knight holds TBN as damage for mitigating potentially and is an actual clear bonus in Grit.

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I'm also responding to this in the context of:

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

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WAR's equivalent being Innerbeast or Fell Cleave and Unchained or Infuriate are genuine hard losses and pigeon hole WAR into Deliverance onri.

As a concept I enjoy the idea of TBN alot in which excellent mitigation = more effective DPS = obvious value increase. But it is difficult to balance unless the other tanks also enjoy that concept.
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This isn't unique, bloodspiller out of grit is still stronger than bloodspiller in grit even with the bonus potency, its not as dramatic of a loss as Fell Cleave vs. Inner Beast. In tank stance for dark knight the best single target use of mana is TBN for bloodspiller. For Warrior in tank stance the best single target use for gauge is Inner Beast. As far as damage go, both are better off not using tank stance. The major difference is that Warrior's skills get stronger leaving tank stance, while dark knight loses potency and its best source of damage switches (outside of very specific conditions) to dark arts.

Staying in tank stance, Inner beast in tank stance is a dps gain over your combo, always has been. The issue with Inner beast is that it isn't the best thing you could do with the gauge when it comes to damage, and as I pointed out in my post warriors are encouraged to use their short duration cooldowns to circumvent needing on demand mitigation almost entirely. But it still remains Inner beast is designed to be mitigation and damage it even ignores the damage penalty of the tank stance, its just not as good as fell cleave and so it isn't something warriors look to spend 50 gauge on. Unless you use warrior to prog through turns, in which case you might use Inner Beast in addition to the short cooldowns to be brick wall of defense.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

It's just a numbers thing to make that happen but it needs to be done more.

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I agree, but again my point is that the only place it isn't really happening is on dark knight, or it is happening in a less desirable stance when you may not necessarily be looking to maximize your damage/still comes up short of dropping tank stance. Dark Knight use to have this with dark dance parry into reprisal, but those days are long gone. If TBN is to be our new way of mitigating and dealing damage I welcome it, but again in this numbers game the devs have put dark knight at the disadvantage as the tuning does not match this as a replacement for the 3.x reprisal system. The reason for this tuning (or at least the only good reason I can come up with) is that out of Grit Dark Knight's Bloodspiller is tuned to be approximately the equivalent of a dark arts as a potency gain over our combo, it is intended to break even so that using TBN does not become a mitigation, damage source, and utility.

TL;DR TBN is yet another example of break even design that is putting dark knight behind when the equivalents on the other tanks provide damage value for mitigating.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I want the animation.

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Then you don't want "Scourge" back, you want something that looks like it.

I can understand wanting the animation back, and if they were to rework it into a brand new skill I would be happy.
But this is not the reason the poster proposed, he wants Scourge back for its dps, and this is a lame reason because dps can be tuned in many ways.

Salted Earth is DRK's most powerful oGCD and also is the only one without a Dark Arts effect. But DRK is already swimming in too many DA effects where the gain/loss of which used measures out to a wash, adding another isn't a real solution. So like AST/SCH/WAR, I'd like to see a recast reduction Job Trait. "Salted Earth recast reduced by 5 seconds when Dark Arts is executed."

This gives an additional powerup to Dark Arts. Salted Earth has a 45 seconds recast with 21 second duration, this trait would create the result priority: if DRK can fit five DAs within a Salted Earth duration, Salted Earth action will come off cooldown just as the bubble is about to fade. It's tied to Dark Arts, but doesn't cost you a Dark Arts+Action as a trade.

IMO best way to give DoT management to DRK. It's magical damage, AOE, correlated to Dark Arts, everything peculiar of DRK identity. It makes a lot more sense than Hyper Speed on AST.

I want scourage back. People say we are trying to avoid skill bloat. Look at PLD and WAR # of skills compared to DRK. They outnumber us by a good amount so I am pretty sure bringing back scourage and dark dance wouldnt hurt.