After over a year of playing FF14 you gain some... wisdom of sorts...

(goes back to read some older post that I made regarding tanks DPS and actual DPS) Good god that was my mindset at the time... so yeah, I started getting into FF14 during Heavensward when Final Steps of Faith and Nidhogg's Rage was considered relevant...


and I was one of the few people who got hyped for Stormblood... only to be disappointed with my main class/job balance adjustments(or lackthereof but that will be for another thread for another time) and realize that... tank DPS should always compensate for healer DPS...


but with the current gameplay of mechanics is towards casuals which is fine unless 1 casual wants to get into the harder content but doesn't like relying on PUGs clear since people will just say "you just got carried next time go play a different class or stop playing newb lololololollol" (generally these are the people who die more than the person who was still learning the fight who say that abeit it is an exageration) it really doesn't help especially if said casual also wants to clear the hard content in it original form, whether it be synced or no echo bonus/penalty to help make the fight easier(though the whole echo bonus thing is up for debate).


Since I play DRK, which is a tank, I should be able to not only hold aggro but also do damage that a DPS should be doing if healer DPS is doing "meh" damage at best but instead tanks are doing "meh" damage at best if they know how to do their rotation. And as a result of such imbalance, tanks should have full strength on their tank accessories instead of just 1/3 (1/2 if melded strength materia) as well as the "Enhanced Strength" traits that DPS have to go with the "Enhanced Vitality" traits that tanks have...


but everyone makes mistakes and you eventually learn from them or repeat the same mistakes... this is true for anything in general from cooking, fixing a car, etc., but if you still mess up then you realize that you are not cut out for the kind of thing you signed up for or you just keep trying until you get it right, just don't expect people to care because there are people who will put others down for feeling good because putting people makes them feels good(basically trolls in a nutshell)...


and with that said, BRING IN THE FEROCIOUS LOOKING TANKS THAT REVEAL TO BE SUPER KAWAII-DESU-WAIFUS-IN-MY-LAIFUS-I mean the constructive criticism...


EDIT: took some advice about spacing things out in sentences

Care to maybe format that mess of a post a bit more? Maybe some spaces between lines, make it a bit more clear to read?

Right now this reads like you're blabbing on in one straight go.

I have no idea of what you're trying to say here.

Are you saying that the current hardest content is balanced towards casuals? Are you also saying tanks should have full STR as well as VIT on their accessories and traits AND deal as much DPS as a dedicated DPS class because healer DPS isn't as high?

I'm lost.

So..... Because you're a player that's played through half an expansion and walked into a new one suddenly makes you have more wisdom?

In such wisdom, you're entitled to have a say that you or your tank class/es should be balanced around that they are able to do 2 jobs at once? DPS and Tank?

I wonder what veterans feel about this, playing from 2.0 and onward. I'm guessing they have greater wisdom where they'll ask for tank to be able to be healers too probably.

Maybe though, who knows. I'm just a dirty casual after all who's been playing from 2.0 that's cleared majority of content, but that doesn't give me said wisdom...

Oh well, i guess some others do I guess.....

Your post.......try hitting return every once in a while. Tank dps should not make up for healer dps and should not in any way shape or form be on par with dedicated dps classes.

If that was the case there would be no reason for the trinity.

Every tank class gets their time in the light. This patch is pld. Next will most likely be drk because they’re doing a great job flooding the forums.

Solved the problem.... make VIT add Damage to tank damage again then we can vit out and stop hearing tank flipouts every other day.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

Solved the problem.... make VIT add Damage to tank damage again then we can vit out and stop hearing tank flipouts every other day.

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Can't be done and won't be done. If this was Heavensward, then I'd say there is a chance, however due to them changing the death penalty system to affect all main stats except vit, to help reduce punishments to surviving mechanics such as boss aoes' or tanks who's health aren't enough to take on tankbusters.

I say it has a chance with Heavensward because the death penalty in HW reduced VIT too and in order to implement VIT scaling into SB, they'll have to rework a penalty and tank stat, which goes into alot of coding and rewriting which the devs don't have time for because of their already planned out schedule.

I'd like VIT to scale with AP once more but we can't have nice things without making other nice things worse.

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Originally Posted by SoulSkyheart

Can't be done and won't be done. If this was Heavensward, then I'd say there is a chance, however due to them changing the death penalty system to affect all main stats except vit, to help reduce punishments to surviving mechanics such as boss aoes' or tanks who's health aren't enough to take on tankbusters.

I say it has a chance with Heavensward because the death penalty in HW reduced VIT too and in order to implement VIT scaling into SB, they'll have to rework a penalty and tank stat, which goes into alot of coding and rewriting which the devs don't have time for because of their already planned out schedule.

I'd like VIT to scale with AP once more but we can't have nice things without making other nice things worse.

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Solution to this? Simply add DH to tanks/healers gears and we good. Realized how the good tanks still stay with DH melds + pentameld accessories? Still doesn't solve the whole Tenacity thingy though, might as well remove it or buff it further because the stat isn't needed at all even for UCoil so it has to be a niche for people to stack it further. Do we even have a comprehensive stat weight for the scalings to make an accurate 'guess' especially for Tenacity?

Crit would get more valuable and DH might just get the boot in 4.2++ (considering you will need pentameld to have your DH rate at 10-15%, would be worse if SE decides to fix the STR scaling on the raid accessories) if intended is still totally fine. Either way contents aren't that hard hitting on tanks to guarantee Tenacity a spot, not to mention that there is almost no real downside to stack more potential dps.

Solution solved another issue evolved. Adding DH (which was stated to be a dps only sub stat specifically for dps only on their gears) would make content easier. That's parry was replaced with TNC, because it was bad and it didnt offer much due to it's RNG.

Now that tanks have a stat they can focus on and will want to focus on it past 4.2, knowing that devs confirmed that Omega will be getting harder with each even numbered patches, TNC will be more desirable because tanks don't wanna pop their tank stance to tank an incoming tank buster, instead, TNC, which is built into their gear, offering 10% or more once we hit 4.2 will allow them to stay in DPS and pop a cooldown.

Wasting resources and time is very valuable in raids because it makes the fight difficult to complete and gives a higher chance of failure. And let's be honest now... who wants to walk into content that's easier because we can push phases or have the devs increase the boss's HP to compensate for strong stats on our gear, that's just bad content development and something they wanna avoid.

Same things go for healers, i guess... If you can DH a heal, then you've gotten a free 25% heal which will add up over time and maybe let them have more DPS uptime which again, more damage, more pushed phases, solutions to fix? Add more HP to the boss equals bad raid design equals boring fight equals give me back my sub money and wasted time back.
-pt. 2

i was actually always against the idea of "multiroling" in this game. i prefer content, where tanks are tanking, healers are healing, and damage dealers kill. instead, we get tank and healer downtimes, so they can switch to offensive and push DPS, which in the end, results in stupid out-of-design ideas of melding your SCH into Direct Hit, and PLD with STR\Crit\DH\insert offensive stat
but i guess people are used to this, some feel very accomplished for "breaking" the boundries of game design, it has been throughout the years in this game, even though devs still "try" to make things work the other way around. unfortunately, they suck at it...

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Originally Posted by SoulSkyheart

Can't be done and won't be done. If this was Heavensward, then I'd say there is a chance, however due to them changing the death penalty system to affect all main stats except vit, to help reduce punishments to surviving mechanics such as boss aoes' or tanks who's health aren't enough to take on tankbusters.

I say it has a chance with Heavensward because the death penalty in HW reduced VIT too and in order to implement VIT scaling into SB, they'll have to rework a penalty and tank stat, which goes into alot of coding and rewriting which the devs don't have time for because of their already planned out schedule.

I'd like VIT to scale with AP once more but we can't have nice things without making other nice things worse.

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"Reduces damage and healing output."

It wouldn't even be that hard a change.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

"Reduces damage and healing output."

It wouldn't even be that hard a change.

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I'm sure they're competent enough to be able to change that death penalty to a damage down. But have we thought to consider why it hasn't been done so far? I'd like for this change but they see something we don't which is why they haven't implemented it so far. Either that, or they already have an plan to release it this Friday during the live letter. I know ever tank wants to see VIT scale with AP again, but until we get an exact reason as to why we can't have it, then we're just getting upset and arguing in the forums about it for no reason at all, upsetting our mood and getting upset about the game.

As of tank main stats right now, adding STR materia into our accessories has ceased the arguing, but only for now. It would be a huge QoL to bring back VIT but until they change that system, we have to deal with this okay-ish system.

To SoulSkyheart: I'm not saying I'm perfect nor do I want to be... Just saying that opinions change over time... and instead of me deleting older posts that I made like some other people would because of some reason I can't think off of the top of my head, I would much rather leave these posts for self-reflection...

To SilentVoice: kinda ironic name for posts like this but at least you are breaking the mold... joking aside, I was also kinda like that during Heavensward, where everyone should just stick to their designated role, but tanks always do damage and I have accepted this, healers have damage options, but it kinda doesn't work, hence why I said tanks should be doing as much DPS as an actual DPS to make up for Healer damage... but if we get bosses that require you to heal the boss to death then that could work...

You can't be serious in your desire to be an actual DPS while being a tank, right?

If tanks were to deal the same amount of DPS as a dedicated DPS to, as you say, 'make up for healer damage', why would anyone play a DPS class anymore? There would be no point. Tanks will do the same DPS as you while having a lot more health and defense. 6 tanks 2 healers would be the new party composition.

As they are now tanks deal a lot of damage when played correctly, they're doing more than their share for to make up for the healers in comparison to dedicated DPS.

Personally I’ve always liked the idea of tanks and healers doing the same damage as dps, but a difference appearing through cooldowns, so where dps have damage increasing cooldowns, tanks have defense increasing cooldowns and healers have heals.

But in a game so dependant on rotations as this one it wouldn’t work, it wouldn’t be fair for mnk to have to meet all those positionals and manage greased lightning just to pull off the same damage as a pld spamming royal authority and only making a difference through CDs.

That would kind of defeat the purpose of having 3 different roles. If tanks are going to also be just as good at dps as actual dps then there would literally be zero reason to actually play a dps, so at that point why not just get rid of dps AND healers and make every job capable of everything. A tank is a tank for a reason; to tank.

Plus I thought it was said that healer dps isn’t even factored in for dps checks, so things should be clearable even without healer dpsing, it’s just obviously quicker and easier when healers do dps (note: I’m not saying healers shouldn’t dps). So anyway, I feel like if they were to make tanks dps/tanks not only would it defeat the purpose of the three roles, but they would just even up rebalancing the content so it would be just as challenging/take you just as much time and effort to clear with that additional dps as it is now, so it’s not like you’d actually be getting anywhere in giving teams a bump in dps to clear things faster/you wouldn’t be “making up for healer dps” bc the content would be balance to assume all that extra tank damage.

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Originally Posted by Visanis

6 tanks 2 healers would be the new party composition.

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Mechanics in general make that a really bad idea.

Even if you decide that you don't need BRD/MCH's ability to recuperate TP/MP, or the melee/mage limit breaks, there's plenty of savage fight mechanics that would become extremely unpleasant purely from the fact that you're expected to have 4 DPS.

*Catastrophe's tentacles, purple debuff, and -100gs are suddenly not getting applied predictably.
*Hallicanarsus will destroy you in her first board game, and likely kill the healers on her thorny board waltz.
*Flare is applied erratically by Exdeath.

There's enough gameplay mechanics in place that even if tanks were equal to DPS, they wouldn't flat out replace them.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Mechanics in general make that a really bad idea.

Even if you decide that you don't need BRD/MCH's ability to recuperate TP/MP, or the melee/mage limit breaks, there's plenty of savage fight mechanics that would become extremely unpleasant purely from the fact that you're expected to have 4 DPS.

*Catastrophe's tentacles, purple debuff, and -100gs are suddenly not getting applied predictably.
*Hallicanarsus will destroy you in her first board game, and likely kill the healers on her thorny board waltz.
*Flare is applied erratically by Exdeath.

There's enough gameplay mechanics in place that even if tanks were equal to DPS, they wouldn't flat out replace them.

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Basically what you said.... (even though I have yet to clear O2S-O4S but still)

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

There's enough gameplay mechanics in place that even if tanks were equal to DPS, they wouldn't flat out replace them.

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The vulnerability on O2S is just easier to handle. A little extra effort but no notable loss.
Bring two dps.
A little less simple to deal with, but then 6/8 of your party members can practically stack with a cooldown and not die, so it's hardly a relevant point. Just get away from the healer.

[QUOTE=DRKoftheAzure;4507654]To SoulSkyheart: I'm not saying I'm perfect nor do I want to be... Just saying that opinions change over time... and instead of me deleting older posts that I made like some other people would because of some reason I can't think off of the top of my head, I would much rather leave these posts for self-reflection...

No one expects you to be, it's how we're human. Just please, the translation team looks at the forums to give critical info about balancing and improving the game as a whole, if they see posts where everyone looks to be posting for memes, they won't take us seriously.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

There's enough gameplay mechanics in place that even if tanks were equal to DPS, they wouldn't flat out replace them.

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And that's how they would have to combat role stacking if they were to make that kind of adjustment. I think the better idea (not mine) is to just get rid of the damage penalty for tank stance. That's where there's a huge disparity in the tanking community, between tanks who are afraid or unable to drop their stance vs tanks who manage (and make their healers manage) to stay alive without it. Those 1500 dps turtle tanks gotta go xD

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Mechanics in general make that a really bad idea.

Even if you decide that you don't need BRD/MCH's ability to recuperate TP/MP, or the melee/mage limit breaks, there's plenty of savage fight mechanics that would become extremely unpleasant purely from the fact that you're expected to have 4 DPS.

*Catastrophe's tentacles, purple debuff, and -100gs are suddenly not getting applied predictably.
*Hallicanarsus will destroy you in her first board game, and likely kill the healers on her thorny board waltz.
*Flare is applied erratically by Exdeath.

There's enough gameplay mechanics in place that even if tanks were equal to DPS, they wouldn't flat out replace them.

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The only gameplay item that would prevent tank stacking in that list is The Game which is a singular 1 off in the entire game. I cant think of a single mechanic that would automatically force a wipe besides the game. Most 'mechanics' like purple debuff can just be utterly ignored by tanks. "Oh no exdeath will double stack fires!!" And? I have lived through 2 fire hits in deliverance with zero CDs with comfortable HP left. That catastrophe purple debuff? I could eat 3 of those without hitting a button. Prey mechanics? Pfft. Tanks can utterly ignore most any mechanic designed to threaten a DPS class through sheer gear alone.

This is ignoring the fact that tank parties can shrug off raid aoes, have access to shields and raid mitigation out the wazoo, can tank swap to cheese all manner of mechanics, and if you still have trouble just use one of your SIX immunities if its annoying.

The game as its currently designed would be utterly laughable with tanks doing DPS damage. We already have 8x Tanks doing relivant content just with clemency and immunity rotation with ZERO healers and bad damage. That would just get out of hand.

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Originally Posted by SoulSkyheart

No one expects you to be, it's how we're human. Just please, the translation team looks at the forums to give critical info about balancing and improving the game as a whole, if they see posts where everyone looks to be posting for memes, they won't take us seriously.

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At this point I would be surprised if they took balancing seriously because of the memes and not because of the serious backlash/outcry about the game balance... also quotation errors...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

At this point I would be surprised if they took balancing seriously because of the memes and not because of the serious backlash/outcry about the game balance... also quotation errors...

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idk how that happened, neither am i bothered to go fix it but, if we were as whiny warriors, we would have gotten a change a long time ago, instead everyone is losing hope because they are feel like they're talking to a brick wall which, yes, it does feel like we are but if we don't see anything in 4.2, then I'm glad to say that this is gonna be a PLD HW story all over again.
All cause they felt was nothing wrong with the class, same was for PLD and it's their fault for not acknowledging it, or translators reading the forums are sick of us and ignoring their job, not that i say they are but it is a possibility.

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Originally Posted by SoulSkyheart

or translators reading the forums are sick of us and ignoring their job, not that i say they are but it is a possibility.

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I don't know. It only took 1 thread 35 posts in to get a response here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ate-discussion

Apparently niche PvP mode is more important than PvE tank balance.