i remember running through on dps, tank, and healer, dps spcifically states that they should focus on the mob the tank is attacking. i understand people want to do other things, but would it not go faster if i am tanking, we could rotate through mobs instead of people trying to spread the damage and let the tank get more damaged, so... i think t he dps controls the dungeon, not the tank or healer: dps each mob > tank takes less damage> healer doesnt need to HEAL as much and can focus on helping the fight, not standing around with glowing fingers (how i feel as a healer)
hall of the novice wrong?
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12-10-2017, 03:22 PMSuzuka196hall of the novice wrong?
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12-10-2017, 04:08 PMFerth
The hall of novices is verrrrry rudimentary information that doesn't really apply to how most dungeons end up being run. Once the dps start learning AOE abilities most dungeon runs will be pulling several groups at once, popping defensive cooldowns while the dps kill everything simultaneously.
I think more than anything the Hall of Novices is there for people who are really new to MMOs in general so they know what class they are playing as and what is generally expected of them when they are that role. -
12-10-2017, 04:11 PMDeaconMoore
You should focus your tanks target, you should use AoE's in most instances vs 3+ enemies. The game doesn't play like Classic WoW dungeons. You don't usually need to CC anything, running out of mana is usually a non-issue, taking on more than 1 pack isn't asking for a wipe, runners getting away grabbing multiple packs of mobs isn't going to happen, the tank shouldn't be losing aggro easily. It's a zergfest and an AoE one where applicable.
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12-10-2017, 05:21 PMLelila38
There's also classes like Smn or Brd, whose dmg relies on dots. Those classes will try and put those dots up on as many mobs as they can to maximise their effectiveness. Also healers generate hate on all mobs, just by healing the tank.
Hall of Novice teaches the very basic of the basics. As a tank you should always hold hate on all the mobs you have pulled, for that, keep using your aoe ability (flash on pld, overpower on war, can't remember drk) a couple times at the start of the pull, if you feel like you're losing hate, use it more. -
12-10-2017, 05:30 PMTabrisOmbrelameYou... hit your head when you were a child do you ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzuka196
Srsly, it's the TANK who got the control on the dungeon, it's not the dps, it's not the heal. The tank can take as much trash as he can, or play more safely by pulling one pack by one pack.
And people don't "spread" Damage, it's something called Area of Effect (AoE) If you got an attack with 300 potency on an single target and an other with 150 but touching every single mobs around you, what will you choose ? For myself, their is not doubt cause you got Potency x Number of target, the AoE is much more efficient on large group of mobs. -
12-10-2017, 05:42 PMSuzuka196
When I talk about spreading damage, I am referring to the DPs that do single damage and focus the mobs the tank doesn't attack. I'm not talking about dots or aoe, that's a different subject entirely. And no, I didn't hit my head as a child, thank you for your concern though... I was just curious why as a dark knight, why my main target is always the last to die
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12-10-2017, 06:52 PMDRKoftheAzureTrolls... simple as that... also DRK has Sole Survivor for HP and MP recovery due to how garbage Darkside has become now which Sole Survivor can be used as a marker for killing the mob you want dead first, but people tend to ignore all DRK pointless abilities since DPS is the way to go and DRK Abyssal Drain is "so good you don't need Unleash" when the reality is that Unleash generates more aggro then Abyssal Drain and Dark Arts effect isn't doing DRK any favors aside from pointing out how outdated DRK is in general this expansion... but on the plus side you can use DRK to just piss off PUGs if that's what you like about DRK... but DRK does need more love though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzuka196
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12-10-2017, 07:26 PMRongwayHere's an example with numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzuka196
Let's say you have a Lv30 BRD as one of your DDs.
Venomous Bite has a total potency of 340, and Windbite has a total potency of 360. Once those are up, the primary GCD attack is Heavy Shot, which is 150, with a 20% chance of forcing a crit on the next Straight Shot, so let's say for every five Heavy Shots, they get a 200ish potency Straight Shot.
BRD30 total single target potency per eight GCDs: 1650
Now let's say you pull a group of three mobs.
If you DoT each of them and then use two Quick Nocks (110 per target per GCD), you do 3 x (340 + 360 + 110 + 110).
BRD30 total AoE potency per eight GCDs: 2760
(this is a 67% gain over the single target potency)
Now let's say you have a Lv30 WHM as your healer. At Lv30 in a 3 mob pull, a healer should realistically need to heal at most once every three or four GCDs, but for the sake of argument let's say that when all three targets are alive, the healer heals every other GCD, so in eight GCDs this WHM can do single target DPS of 230 (Aero) + 3 x 200 (Stone II). Total 830. Assume that killing targets allows the WHM to nuke more, up to 8/8 GCDs: 230 + 7 x 200 = 1630. This is maximum gain of 800 potency per eight GCDs. This is less than the 1110 potency the BRD would have gained from AoEing. If there were two BRDs, the party would be doing at least 1420 potency less than they could.
This is almost another whole single target BRD's worth of damage!
The difference only gets larger as levels go up and standard pull sizes get bigger. Consider a Lv70 BRD with six targets. By 70, BRD gets upgraded DoTs, Caustic Bite (570) and Stormbite (670). Instead of crit Straight Shot, they get Refulgent Arrow (300). Again, using the same eight GCD timing, the single target DPS would be 570 + 670 + 6 x 150 + 300 = 2290. And let's say for AoE, he uses Stormbite on each target and then fills the other two GCDs with Quick Nock, for 6 x (670 + 110 + 110) = 5340. This is 133% more damage than single target. And we haven't yet even started considering the bonus damage they get from the bajillion oGCD Rains of Death.
Some other jobs' potencies (GCDs only, not normalized across jobs):
(Lv30 single target vs Lv30 AoE(3 targets))
RDM: 2055ish vs 2400
BLM: 2142ish vs 2946ish
MNK (6 GCDs): 1242 vs 1472
(Lv70 single target vs Lv70 AoE(6 targets))
RDM: 2280ish vs 4800ish
BLM: 3222ish vs 8404ish (slightly complicated)
MNK (6 GCDs): 1242 vs 2470
tl;dr: It's definitely faster for DDs to spread DoTs and AoE things than to focus all attention on one target at a time, so tanks should AoE liberally as well to maintain enmity on everything. -
12-10-2017, 08:15 PMSummerScorcherDark Knight is completely viable. Where it falters is when compared to the other two tanks/in 8 man content. Unleash generates more aggro so you should ignore AD? What? Though it's a nice bonus, you use Abyssal for the damage, not the aggro it provides. I'd much rather have a good Dark Knight, than a Warrior or Paladin who doesn't know what he's doing. Also, dps doing single target in AoE situations is probably just them being bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
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12-10-2017, 08:19 PMLelila38He specifically clarified a couple posts above that he's not talking about aoe situations, but about people just single targeting mobs other than the tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
@Op: if that's the case in levelling dungeons, chances are people are new and simply don't know better. Try to remind them friendly to please focus on the target of the tank. There's also the option to mark the one you're on. That was rather common for a while, but kinda got out of fashion. If they still hit other mobs and give you a hard time, you can only deal with it, do your best to hold hate and finish the run, kick them or leave yourself. -
12-10-2017, 09:43 PMDualgunnerAnd yet slow dps will cause a dungeon to take a long time regardless of the tank's pace :thinking:Quote:
Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame
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12-10-2017, 10:17 PMRongwayYeah, well, wall of text started writing itself long before that post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lelila38
If even one person has DoTs or AoEs, the other people who are single targeting should be hitting the targets that have the most health, so that individuals live longer, but the pack as a whole dies faster. So the point stands: tanks should AoE liberally and not focus on one target.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lelila38
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12-11-2017, 01:01 AMwinsockPossibly, but very, very unlikely / under a very specific scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzuka196
It's much faster to pull large and AoE everything, so assume you cant for some reason (maybe a wall). Some AoE skills are good on 2 targets, so let's say none of those skills are in your party comp. At this point, it is still likely advantageous for at least the healer to spread their DoT onto both targets, so let's say these 2 targets are doing so much damage that the healer cant DPS at all and your DPS dont have DoTs either... It might be advantageous in that type of scenario, but in all honesty, it's more likely that this 2 target pull requires 0 healing regardless, making the argument moot.
It really just depends on how you define "control". For example:Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzuka196
* If I am not in tank stance, am I exerting an amount of control when a DPS uses a threat mitigation tool? Or is the DPS exerting control if I take action to gain more enmity? Or is the healer exerting control by only healing me as if I was in tank stance?
* If I make a large pull, am I exerting control when the DPS AoE? Or is the DPS exerting control if they start a single target rotation? Or is the healer exerting control by only healing me as if I had made a single group pull?
* etc
I think a better question is "who should have control?" In my opinion, assuming there is no static leader, the party is a 4-man PUG, and control is being assigned solely based on role; control should default to the tank. I say this because the tank needs to make the fewest assumptions about the party to ensure a smooth run (usually limited to something like: "I assume my WHM will use cure II"). -
12-11-2017, 01:29 AMDzianIt might be any number of things. Maybe you as a tank picked an illogical target to focus. I have no idea which levels your talking about here but to use quarn as an example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzuka196
If you've pulled a bat a skele and a bee and you're attacking the bat then bad choice. You'll most likely find the fps will focus the bee down first because final sting can be pretty nasty and ideally wants to be dead before it gets used.
Other dungeons you have packs where one mob may be a caster and drop aoes on the party while the rest of the pack might be physical orientated. So once again many dps will focus the caster while you're attacking something else to eliminate it's telegraphs and make the rest of the pack easier to deal with with less dodging required.
You'll also often find caster dps focus on whatever has the most hp because it's quite annoying when a mob dies mid cast and interrupts your spell.
And also some jobs like brd/smn will put dots up on multiple enemies rather than focus one down.
There's many reasons then the dps might not follow ypur targets. -
12-11-2017, 02:11 AMKabooaWe can't have people thinking all three roles contribute to the pace of the dungeon, now, can we?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualgunner
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12-11-2017, 07:24 AMTouchandFeel
In single-targeting situations such as 3 or less mobs or lower level when not many dps jobs have much AoE capability, it is better for the party to focus damage on the most dangerous mob (usually the one that has a big nasty attack like the Bees in Qarn or the one that does AoE attacks), kill it and then move to the next most dangerous one.
DoTs should try to be placed on mobs that won't die before the DoT can run its course so that it does its max damage.
Spreading single target damage doesn't actually really help kill things faster because the HP pool of the enemies is what it is and single target attacks will take the same amount out of that pool no matter which mob you hit.
However focusing one mob down and then moving to the next does remove one source of damage to the tank so therefore less defensive CD usage and healing is needed, allowing both the tank and the healer to focus more attention on doing damage.
This can also help the dps do more damage too because if you kill that one annoying mob that is doing AoE attacks and making people move out of the AoE and losing time attacking, that is less time dodging and more time attacking which means more damage and quicker kills.
At packs of 4 or more mobs and when jobs start getting their AoEs, it is best to use those since the total damage is multiplied by the number of enemies being hit and pretty much always equates to more overall damage.
As for who "controls" the run, well everyone does. Each role plays an integral part that makes up the total capability of the party, and what the party can tackle and how quickly they can plow through things.
The tank is often expected to know how to appraise the group and then determine the pace they can go since the tank is the one in the front pulling and starting the fights so that they can establish agro. However, a tank won't last long if they are taking more damage than the healer can handle, so that has to be taken into account. Also things will take too long to die if the DPS can't do enough damage which then puts more stress on the tank and the healer and can lead to running out of defensive cooldowns or mp for healing which can lead to a wipe or prolonged downtime waiting for those things to come back before proceeding.
In short everyone sets the pace and is in "control" of the run and it is up to everyone in the party to figure out how to do the best they can do as a group with what they have. -
12-11-2017, 01:58 PMLelila38Hehe, it was an interesting read, nonetheless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
Agreed on that. As a tank, you should just hold hate on everything that is pulled. That's why I told him to use flash a lot in my first post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
Still, as in most cases, I believe communication is key. If he doesn't like them doing it, talking with the group might clarify and solve things.