Rival Wings rewards (exp/tomes)

Is it just me or does anyone else thing the rewards vs time invested seem wonky?

Wings of Fire is a legit reward. It is worth more than anything.

Xp have always been bad in pvp. I have played over 500 feast with my mch and it is still not lvl 70.

The reward for tomes is standard, it's the same as in frontlines. The exp though has been nerfed quite a bit to prevent botting, I think.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The reward for tomes is standard, it's the same as in frontlines. The exp though has been nerfed quite a bit to prevent botting, I think.

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Xp not really nerfed. They raised xp from winning and reduced from losing. In feast you gain more xp now if you win% is better than 50%.

oh i mean on total it felt like a nerf compared to others. I was leveling my red mage to 60 and did it, and losses gave like 120k exp or so while wins 240k. Its really low for a frontlines mode overall.

Feast unranked can be a minute match... you can easily get 240k or more exp. It's crazy to increase it any higher.

Honestly, I'm in it for the PvP. Don't really care about tomes and XP. I'll run dungeons and roulettes for that.

pvp was so much better when the exp/tome rewards were junk, makes me wish i put up with the queue times back then to get the ball mounts

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Honestly, I'm in it for the PvP. Don't really care about tomes and XP. I'll run dungeons and roulettes for that.

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Except this mode is different and needs a full 48 players. The people who only do it for the PvP can barely support 24 man frontlines once a few months have set in, and the only decent reward is from 100 wins. They are probably going to need some incentive later on, especially if the SB relic doesn't give an option to create it from pvp matches, like light. I think pvpers don't remember how much the relic bolstered participation, since you needed a ton of tomes for the materials.

edit: ironically after i wrote this, I queued up for a match, and at this time Astralagos has a more than 30 minute queue. Even granting the off-peak timing, the issue of needing 48 players might be rough. I hope SE can incentivize people to do it.

I seem to remember that PvP still did happen despite GC restrictions complicating matchmaking back then, no XP given at all, low tome rewards in comparison to everything else, and the larger body of players avoiding it over misconceptions. Not to mention that "terribly unbalanced" 3.x PvP system. . .

Yes, and it wound up taking 30 minutes to get a single 8v8v8 match. This mode doubles the amount of players needed, while offering less overall incentive to do it. I'm saying there is a danger later on due to this that SE may want to consider.

It's widely known that the lengthy queue times were largely due to GC restrictions and imbalances. You weren't going to get a 24 man match when there's 12 Mael, 8 Adders, and only 4 Flames. Then 3.5 and Freelancer happens, and look how magically queue times improved?

As for incentive:

1. It's new content during a "drought".
2. Do you like PvP?
3. Do you want a Magitek gorilla mount?
4. Do you just. . . REALLY like the Alexander mechs?

In all honesty, #2 is enough for me. Not everything needs a carrot and stick in this game. I continued to actively play and enjoy Frontlines after getting everything from it, and I can see myself still playing and enjoying Rival Wings after the mount too. Even more if they give it the fixes it needs.

"I don't need any real incentives to do anything, therefore it should be fine if no one has any." Meanwhile the idea of incentives acting as something that helps keep you playing when you

1. have past the drought
2. have seen the meta backwards and forwards
3. have the gorilla
4. get used to the mechs

I guess just doesn't come into mind. Ah well, this playerbase...man, I never thought people want to return to 3.0 anyways, nothing should surprise me by now.

I never said no one should have rewards or incentives, but the way people use them as a talking point makes me wonder sometimes if anyone actually plays this because they enjoy it, or if it's all just about grinding out reward after reward and never being satisfied at all?

As for 3.x PvP, you have to remember: we didn't ask for 4.x PvP's changes. Maybe a few of the good things we got, but it was quite a blindside for the PvP community. A "by the way, we're changing everything about PvP and never said anything til now, despite all the feedback and asking for information" on SE's part. And by and large the original community that played it (and NOT the ones that avoided it like the plague) aren't happy with the changes. I pointed out before that you've covered the things that were wrong with 3.x PvP, but often overlook what was actually right all along.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

oh i mean on total it felt like a nerf compared to others. I was leveling my red mage to 60 and did it, and losses gave like 120k exp or so while wins 240k. Its really low for a frontlines mode overall.

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Pre-60 Frontlines is a waste. It gives a % of the exp required. PotD falls off at 60 and that is where frontlines comes in. I received 800k Exp at level 65 on my whm in PvP, which is way better than PotD at 500k.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Ah well, this playerbase...man, I never thought people want to return to 3.0 anyways, nothing should surprise me by now.

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What is better about the 4.x system? The only thing is the resistances.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I never said no one should have rewards or incentives, but the way people use them as a talking point makes me wonder sometimes if anyone actually plays this because they enjoy it, or if it's all just about grinding out reward after reward and never being satisfied at all?

As for 3.x PvP, you have to remember: we didn't ask for 4.x PvP's changes. Maybe a few of the good things we got, but it was quite a blindside for the PvP community. A "by the way, we're changing everything about PvP and never said anything til now, despite all the feedback and asking for information" on SE's part. And by and large the original community that played it (and NOT the ones that avoided it like the plague) aren't happy with the changes. I pointed out before that you've covered the things that were wrong with 3.x PvP, but often overlook what was actually right all along.

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All of this!

The pvp community wanted tomes removed from seal rock. It wanted the dueling circle, which pretty much is useless on just about every server. It wanted light party feast to have the same rewards as normal feast, and they didn't even bother playing it, enabling people to easily win trade and forcing SE to remove the mode. The PvP community played Feast so little after a point that they more or less cut the seasons duration immensely. The pvp thinks 3.0 is good when you could barely find healers who wanted to do it due to all those moves you think added so much skill to the game, and forgets everything bad or crappy about the mode. I don't know why I should trust their judgment.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The pvp community wanted tomes removed from seal rock. It wanted the dueling circle, which pretty much is useless on just about every server. It wanted light party feast to have the same rewards as normal feast, and they didn't even bother playing it, enabling people to easily win trade and forcing SE to remove the mode. The PvP community played Feast so little after a point that they more or less cut the seasons duration immensely. The pvp thinks 3.0 is good when you could barely find healers who wanted to do it due to all those moves you think added so much skill to the game, and forgets everything bad or crappy about the mode. I don't know why I should trust their judgment.

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someone is triggered e_e

The community wanted the incentive for people to come in, NOT participate, and be rewarded removed. We enjoy getting tomes from our preferred endgame of choice, but disliked others who held it in contempt trying to use it for selfish gain.

We wanted the ability to duel. . . They gave us ONE PLACE to do it. And while you consider it useless, it's drawn the attention of the curious and gotten them to actually try PvP. I personally met and began training my first "student" on day one, and went on to teach others from there, eventually creating Goblin's most successful PvP linkshell and connecting the various PvPers on the server. I still see random people, not even regular PvPers pop up there from time to time to duel each other for fun.

Light Party offering rewards, again, unfortunately drew people who sought to exploit it for selfish gain. SE removed that not because of them, but because they have plans to relaunch a more formal, structured Light Party Feast.

The lack of rating decay and desire to rank up fast to avoid the new, the curious, and admittedly, the lesser skilled is what makes Feast seasons slow down over time. Poor matchmaking poses greater risk to higher ranks when placed with lower ranks that, now, can't be effectively communicated with. That has nothing to do season duration.

There are PLENTY of successful healers from previous seasons under the 3.x PvP system, some even top 10. Your statement is both untrue and heavily based on a personal opinion, and just as said before, you see all that was wrong, and not what was right all along.

As far as judgements are concerned, who would it make more sense to listen to, the active community that formed around and enjoyed that "terrible" 3.x PvP where everyone else hated and avoided it purely from word of mouth or personal bias, or those people who hated and avoided it, yet would turn around and say "the Nadaam is awesome! We want this for PvP!" but wouldn't touch Seal Rock? Should SE listen to casters on how to build a better Bard or Machinist? I mentioned that for a reason; the PvP community was just as unpleasantly surprised as BRDs were in Heavensward when they were suddenly made into half-casters. Bards didn't ask for that change, and they didn't like it. This is no different.

We get it: you didn't like 3.x PvP, nor healing in that system. Many loved it and had no issue with it, and to have it suddenly torn away and replaced with an unfinished "foundation" of a system is a huge disappointment. The part of the community that actually liked PvP - and played it - now does not like it, and the ones that disliked it without trying it now suddenly like it. And not even for the actual gameplay, but just another means to an end. Tomes and exp, both of which they can still obtain in greater amounts from other content. . . Do you see where the issue is there?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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But Lace, I want to be able to join into PVP and be rewarded immediately and without effort!

Whether that effort be time, difficulty or any sort of dedication. Just give me what I want when I want it, right away.

Is that really so bad?

I know you were being sarcastic, but #feelssobadman

I'll be totally honest. If it weren't for Frontlines and Rival Wings, I'd never log in anymore. PVE content has become so stale and boring to me, and I'm no longer participating in the B.S. drama fest that this game calls raiding.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

TAs far as judgements are concerned, who would it make more sense to listen to, the active community that formed around and enjoyed that "terrible" 3.x PvP where everyone else hated and avoided it purely from word of mouth or personal bias, or those people who hated and avoided it, yet would turn around and say "the Nadaam is awesome! We want this for PvP!" but wouldn't touch Seal Rock? Should SE listen to casters on how to build a better Bard or Machinist? I mentioned that for a reason; the PvP community was just as unpleasantly surprised as BRDs were in Heavensward when they were suddenly made into half-casters. Bards didn't ask for that change, and they didn't like it. This is no different.

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They listened to the raiding community at the end of coil, and got the consensus they wanted everything to be more difficult. So they designed Gordias and Midas, and they made the 3.0 system at launch really tough, requiring skillful play. Even with Bard's changes, it still wound up being the easiest out of the HW jobs to play and do average at, compared to BLM, which had such tight timers that it was ridiculous. All the DPS jobs were markedly more complex to play well and play in general.

And what happened next was SE discovering that people really struggled with that, despite the community asking for it. They tried to slowly adjust the game's balance through minor means, like cutting the timers down, or adding things like Thordan EX to bridge the gear gap for raiders. All the while people kept saying it was fine, or it was easy, etc. Eventually they just had to give up and reduce difficulty of the main raids overall just to rebuild the raiding community (which had massively splintered) and then literally toss out many of the HW mechanics that served to make the game so much more difficult, like applying multiple DOTs to a target for max DPS, or having large amount of moves in a rotation overall.

If you had asked the established communities then, they would have just said "git gud" and we'd still be seeing Ultimate levels of NA raid clears.

That's because over time, the communities ostracize their negative people, and just end up comprised of people who more or less like the system. If you were good at 3.0 rotations, you didn't see any need for them to be changed. But if you struggled with them, even if you joined the community, you just wind up not getting listened to, or leave because they aren't seeing how it is affecting things. Everything is fine, so it has to be the players.

And it's honestly just dumb. There's always a trend for expert players to try to make things harder over time, because the skill gap between an expert and average can be incredibly large. If you want 3.0 back, you essentially want to increase that gap. We've had a long history of people assuming that players will rise to the challenge when they do that. They don't, really.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

If you want 3.0 back, you essentially want to increase that gap.

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Which is why the skill gap between an average player and expert player is about the same in today's 4.0 system. Healers honestly have a greater skill gap than what was required in 3.0. Also maybe the reason why feast is meh in attendance is it is a poorly implemented arena style pvp mode. The 3.0 system for PvP wasn't that complex, it really wasn't. But now we have a game that functions completely differently. In 3.0 you knew how the moves worked because not much changed between PvE and PvP, the biggest skill gap was people not knowing they had PvP abilities and be willing to compromise their hotbars (because hotbars were assigned to the job and not the gearset). I PvP'd on specific jobs and PvE'd on others for that exact reason. But now we have a mode where blizzard isn't blizzard and acts completely differently. So it is harder to go between modes and know how the abilities are going to work.

So if anything it was education that was lacking because players wouldn't look up the resources that were available to them. In 3.0 only experienced players knew how amazing/deadly push back was and it took education which the dueling arena allowed for.

To say the dueling arena is dead is a fallacy. I constantly saw duels going on in the Wolves Den when I was on Ultros and also now that I am on Hyperion.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Xp have always been bad in pvp. I have played over 500 feast with my mch and it is still not lvl 70.

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Took me around 135 games in Rival Wings to level my DRK from 56 to 70. Not bad, i guess.
Definitely better than farming one Stormblood dungeon over and over.

Even though the xp rate isn't the most efficient I've taken 3 jobs to 69, saving some space to do their job quest and it's definitely been more fun that just doing dailies.

XP doesn't have to be huge to make it worthwhile, if the content is engaging then in your mind the leveling experience is faster because you're enjoying yourself as you do it. It's not like PVE content where you know what to expect, in PVP you have to look and react to the situation.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

And it's honestly just dumb. There's always a trend for expert players to try to make things harder over time, because the skill gap between an expert and average can be incredibly large. If you want 3.0 back, you essentially want to increase that gap. We've had a long history of people assuming that players will rise to the challenge when they do that. They don't, really.

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Well that's a large part of the problem honestly. People didn't want to try or learn PvP then. It was never hard. Never. But SE made no effort to teach, and the playerbase didn't, and generally still doesn't know of the resources the community made for themselves all this time. I personally wrote 2 Frontlines guides, and made a few video tutorials showing why I say some of the things I say, like MCHs not fully loading before entering battle. And STILL I see and hear MCHs fully load up before the gate comes down.

During the early days of the Garo event, I remember plenty of times seeing advice defiantly refused; the now-famous "you don't pay my sub" meme. Even now too; had someone tell me "Nobody wants to hear your suggestions, Lace", as I was telling them not to drop off cliffs to reach a large ice teeming with enemies while we only had one healer. Can you guess what happened?

You perhaps have the mistaken impression that the vets want things to be tougher. We don't. Learning how to PvP was never tough. I taught a guy 3.x PvP MCH in the course of a week, and through duels. In no time at all, with practice and effort on his part, he plays well enough that I have to caution my team if he's on the other side. He also learned to be a good healer in 3.x too. Maybe he's a prodigy, but I saw the work he put into it, and I see how it paid off. Even I wasn't so amazing at first, but I simply pushed myself and faced all challenges head on. Either I won or I learned the hard way. A lot of the veterans did. But rather than want the bar raised, we just wanted people who were willing to learn what we could teach with far less struggle. The PvP system did not need to change so drastically to facilitate this.

It's worth noting, before I forget, that even if BRD was easy to play, the bigger picture was that many BRD players didn't like the change. They didn't ask for it, and BRD wasn't so difficult before that either.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Either I won or I learned the hard way. A lot of the veterans did. But rather than want the bar raised, we just wanted people who were willing to learn what we could teach with far less struggle. The PvP system did not need to change so drastically to facilitate this.

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This right here. I had a friend who main'd ninja. He was an extremely good PvE Ninja and knew how to burst but wasn't good at PvP. But I was a PLD main at the time and he quickly learned how deadly pushback was. He eventually learned how to beat me. Shoot I didn't know the potential until I look up Rara Mira videos.

Something that is easy for you may not be easy for everyone. PvP is not something you could go down, read a wiki or watch a video, and then execute relatively simple steps to suddenly become competent. A lot of the feast back then was trying to use a really unwieldy skill set under some pretty harsh settings while managing being cced as well as dealing with FFXIV's notoriously wonky netcode. Actually executing what people taught was a tremendous issue, in the same way anyone can read a guide on Savage yet struggle in mastering it.

Gamers somehow tend to assign all the fault to the players as if it was something simple to do and people just didn't do it. it's a lot more complicated than that, and simplifying was an attempt to reduce some of the mechanical complexity so players could focus better on the tactical stuff. You're asking for what you think is tactical complexity, but will also end up adding mechanical complexity back in too.

But what mechanical complexity though? If you played a job in PvE, you knew how the skill worked. It would be no different in PvP, save for something like Unmend which became a draw in, Unleash which became a bind, and Protect which was (then) useless. How things worked didn't change. How to use them effectively together to burst did, and THAT wasn't too difficult to learn.

I understand an attempt was made to try and simplify things to ease learning, but as I said, it wasn't needed. More initiative and willingness to learn how PvP worked was needed. And many Shatter matches, and even Rival Wings now shows me just how little many players understand PvP in general. I don't want to make it sound like it was all so easy to learn - believe me, a LOT of my trial and error was just error. But I wasn't afraid to take those chances and push myself. Sure I screwed up and people wanted to point fingers, but more often than not, I did things right, or the risks I took proved worth it.

Lamia's an Aether server, right? Why don't we team up sometime? Maybe we can gain a better understanding of each others viewpoints?

if you don't like the pvp rewards vs the time spent to get it, then do roulettes or something? pvp is pvp, it shouldn't be the go-to for people scared to pvp to lvl in by f*cking botting 24/7 or afking

So SE simplified the system and people still don’t know how it works. Can’t make anything idiot proof because they always build a better idiot.

I still don’t get what your salt is with 3.x Riyah.

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Originally Posted by Astrololol

if you don't like the pvp rewards vs the time spent to get it, then do roulettes or something? pvp is pvp, it shouldn't be the go-to for people scared to pvp to lvl in by f*cking botting 24/7 or afking

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cool, have fun with your 30 minute queues for an 8v8 match then. I queued up for 4 matches of ranked feast a bit ago, each 20 min apart save for the last, and 75% of it were the same people. The incentives were there just to get people to try the mode and hopefully like it; without them people don't bother.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

So SE simplified the system and people still don’t know how it works. Can’t make anything idiot proof because they always build a better idiot.

I still don’t get what your salt is with 3.x Riyah.

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I'll try and be simple.

All the problems you have now you'll still have with a 3.0 system. It will just make executing things more of a pain in the butt for a lot of players. It will not really fix things like you guys think it will, because you are forgetting the ways 3.0 sucked. But it will probably tip the balance about whether or not PvP is fun to bother with.

Oh Riyah. . .

Season 6 is underway. If anyone's queueing for the Feast, they're probably queueing for ranked. Sure, the unranked modes are pretty active at times, but now that people know those weapons are a prize, most want to try to rank up for them in this first shorter season.

As for the 3.x vs 4.x PvP, no, changing it either way isn't going to make things easier for anyone who doesn't want to learn or doesn't care to and just simply wants the XP from the mode. But! Using MCH for example, you won't have a situation where you know the job in PvE, then you come to PvP and you hear "You don't have Gauss Round or Ricochet. And you can't give MP or TP, not even with PvP skills. Speaking of PvP skills, your aoe stun makes you overheat, but it's tied to your gauge, so if you're in cooldown after an overheat and it runs out, you can't stun. Oh, heat works differently too. Hot Shot and Cooldown are the same button, and are both a +/- 25 now. Oh, and you can't use turrets or anything turret related. . ."

MCH might as well be an entirely different job between the two (and sadly, people STILL don't play this "easier" PvP MCH right most of the time). You continue to see everything wrong with 3.x PvP, but overlook what was right. Were you not the one suggesting a skill to help melees close the gap in a different thread? That's what Fetter Ward helped with tremendously. And where is Fetter Ward now?

Third, you misread, I queued for ranked. The other modes don't pop at all. Lamia is a primal data center. The weapons aren't really a draw.

I'm not sure what the latter point is. If you want 3.0 pvp, you are still wanting a pvp kit that is different from current pve. The difference would be that you have a lot more buttons and abilites in pvp rather than a lot less. If it's the whole 3.0 kit, probably close to double the actions. I'd probably say work on more of a 4.0 with CC model, if that...I can't ever see myself playing DRG with 3 separate jumps and a single buff for jumps again, or needing to use heavy thrust and life surge in addition to normal attacks.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

All the problems you have now you'll still have with a 3.0 system. It will just make executing things more of a pain in the butt for a lot of players. It will not really fix things like you guys think it will, because you are forgetting the ways 3.0 sucked. But it will probably tip the balance about whether or not PvP is fun to bother with.

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You're not saying how 3.0 sucked? From your post below it sounds like it was too many abilities. We have all those abilities in PvE but I don't see people complaining about how complex it is. You also don't need to use every ability.

"Too many buttons"

Shall I break out the hotbar pics again? I've disproven that one several times, and still keep the pics handy to do so on demand.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

"Too many buttons"

Shall I break out the hotbar pics again? I've disproven that one several times, and still keep the pics handy to do so on demand.

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Agreed. I could fit all the relevant "PvP buttons" into less than what we have now for PvE. My only complaint with the 3.x system is hotbars were all dependent on job and not gearset. So if I swapped it for one it swapped it for my PvE gearset as well.

Oh come on, Third. Your pvp abilties both offensive and defensive took close to 8 slots, with your turrets and wildfire another 4. That's 12 right there, without basic attacks, cc, buffs, or potions/meds. I think you are being too contrary. people complained back then that they could barely even fit the pvp actions in.