QoL Grit change for DRK

Not the usual "bring back Scourge / old Delirium", buff xy, rework everything, none of that. Just a simple thing about Grit.

Grit - 1800MP
Instant-cast (ogcd), 10s recast timer
Replaces Blood Weapon with Blood Price while under the effect of Grit.

Basically, make it ogcd so you can weave in / out of it easier in between skills and do a Defiance-Deliverance thing for Bloodweapon and Bloodprice the same way WAR does it with stuff like Inner Beast <-> Fell Cleave, Steel Cyclone <-> Decimate and so on. At very least that if we don't get Blood Price outside of Grit back so we can save ourselves a hotbar slot.

While it doesn't fix the issues DRKs have, it would be a nice QoL change for DRKs that play despite the handicap but also utilize Grit somewhere.

You seem to forget Grit itself is a defensive ability. Defiance isn't on it's own, and requires healing to be any sort of thing other than a nerf to the warrior using it.
Sure you can blow 50 Beast Gauge on Inner Beast for some defense on WAR, but you don't need to spend your blood on Grit like that. THere's no equivalent to the defense of Shield Oath and Grit for a Warrior.

This is the main reason Defiance and Deliverance are oGCD while Shield Oath and Grit are not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Canadane

You seem to forget Grit itself is a defensive ability. Defiance isn't on it's own, and requires healing to be any sort of thing other than a nerf to the warrior using it.
Sure you can blow 50 Beast Gauge on Inner Beast for some defense on WAR, but you don't need to spend your blood on Grit like that. THere's no equivalent to the defense of Shield Oath and Grit for a Warrior.

This is the main reason Defiance and Deliverance are oGCD while Shield Oath and Grit are not.

---

Warriors always seem to forget that Dark Knights and Paladins also immediately lose eHP when they drop out of their tank stance, whereas Warrior only loses HP if they have a higher HP total than their Deliverance maximum. That's a big enough advantage right there to nullify the disadvantage of not receiving any immediate eHP upon swapping to Defiance.

This despite the fact that Equilibrium is essentially always available to a Warrior swapping into Defiance, allowing them to heal themselves to their full Defiance maximum on the same GCD that they tank swap, rendering the Grit/Shield Oath "advantage" totally meaningless.

And on top of that, in this instance the DRK is still penalized with 1800 MP, whereas Warrior loses absolutely nothing on stance swap.

DRK and PLD stance swaps shouldn't be kept on the GCD just because WARs like to make a big deal out of the tiny disadvantage of the Defiance stance swap, particularly when Warrior is already being compensated two or three times over for that disadvantage.

It's very much an "I stubbed my toe, so to make things fair, you have to cut off your leg" scenario.

And frankly, even if it were true and even if Defiance did suck that hard in comparison to Grit and Shield Oath, that still doesn't mean that Warrior's poor class design should be used as an excuse to inflict even worse class design on DRK and PLD.

=============

As for the OP: Yes, that Grit change is long overdue, and definitely needs to be put into the game ASAP.

However, making Blood Weapon and Blood Price share a button isn't a good idea. That probably would have to mean that they would also share a cooldown, and that's an unnecessary nerf that DRK really can't afford at the moment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crater

As for the OP: Yes, that Grit change is long overdue, and definitely needs to be put into the game ASAP.

However, making Blood Weapon and Blood Price share a button isn't a good idea. That probably would have to mean that they would also share a cooldown, and that's an unnecessary nerf that DRK really can't afford at the moment.

---

While not my personal intent to make Weapon and Price share a recast timer, it didn't occur to me before that this might be a result for said change in terms of how the coding works internally.

Personally, not intended though - they should remain independent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crater

snip

---

Defiance actually did suck in comparison to Grit and ShO in 3.x because of multiple reasons:

In 3.x Heavy Swing TP cost was 70, and because there wasn't Inner Release for moar Fell Cleaves - which doesn't cost any TP - your overall TP drain was much higher then. Goat was used on melee jobs, their TP drain was usually even higher. So keeping Equilibrium on CD was pretty common. WAR didn't benefit from swaping to Defiance immediately cause of this certain reason.

Second reason was damage penality. In 3.x Defiance damage penality was actually 25% instead of 20%.

Lastly, bloodbath and zerk in Deliverance was more beneficial since you healed yourself more than in Defiance.

Just because SE didn't change anything in this regard and it is working now, doesn't mean it was working then.

Same reason DRK was working in 3.x because of raid design - most tank busters were magical, DRK's DPS was higher than PLD's, and magical attacks couldn't get blocked - and is not working now. There was already an issue with DRK in 3.x, but it just got recognized in 4.x since there aren't many magical attacks (only in O2s) - and they even can get blocked now - and PLD got higher DPS and utility than DRK.

If 3.x raids had more strength based attacks and PLD's DPS was more close to DRK's, PLD would have overshadowed DRK.

Meanwhile WAR got nerfed and buffed from an OP tank - in DPS stance - into a still pretty awesome tank - both stances.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Canadane

Sure you can blow 50 Beast Gauge on Inner Beast for some defense on WAR, but you don't need to spend your blood on Grit like that. THere's no equivalent to the defense of Shield Oath and Grit for a Warrior.

---

You can't just count Blackblood as a resource for DRK. DRK has the same amount of resources as PLD, yet uses them in different way and is even more dependent. PLD uses its MP for damage - Holy Spirit spam or 'oh shit' Clemency heals, and its gauge for mitigation - Intervention and Sheltron
DRK uses Blackblood for damage dealing abilites, and MP for additional damage and mitigation - TBN or enhanced Dark Mind.
The even bigger difference is DRK's resources are more limited and even more complicated to manage - as they are very punishing if you become greedy. PLD has more tools to manage their resources better and easier.

WAR is pretty forward and simple with just its gauge. It's for both damage and mitigation.

Last, but not least, DRK also pays a high amount of resources (MP) for mitigation - Grit and TBN. As DRK lacks mitigation, esp. prior lvl 70, buffing Grit into an oGCD skill is the least that can be done. Recast time can be ajusted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Replaces Blood Weapon with Blood Price while under the effect of Grit.

---

Since you don't want to share recast time, I disagree here.
It's just too easy to lose track of your remaining CD time on those abilities once you turn Grit on/off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Since you don't want to share recast time, I disagree here.
It's just too easy to lose track of your remaining CD time on those abilities once you turn Grit on/off.

---

Easy fix: add cooldown timers for both Weapon and Price to the blood gauge, much like Bard and Straight Shot, but in reverse I suppose.

I've always found this a bit strange. In interviews leading up to SB, the devs specifically flagged WAR's ability to stance dance without penalty (i.e. no GCD or resource cost) was one of the big advantages that promoted its use over the other two tanks. When the devs tried to change it (i.e. add in a resource cost), everyone lost their mind over it. So that was a no go.

What was the old mantra again? "Don't nerf WAR, boost the other two tanks up to its level?"

DRK has a GCD cost to stance switching. DRK has a resource cost to stance switching (18% of your resource bar, in fact). What this thread is recommending is the removal of one of these two penalties. The resource penalty still remains. In other words, they're asking for the stance setup that WAR had at the start of Stormsblood. You know, the one that everyone complained made WAR too hard to play?

Even if Grit was oGCD, it would still be weaker than the present implementation of Deliverance/Defiance, because of the difficulty that this game has in disengaging buffs (think pre-SB Cleric Stance).

MP Cost or GCD cost, one or the other.. not both.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

What was the old mantra again? "Don't nerf WAR, boost the other two tanks up to its level?"

DRK has a GCD cost to stance switching. DRK has a resource cost to stance switching (18% of your resource bar, in fact). What this thread is recommending is the removal of one of these two penalties. The resource penalty still remains. In other words, they're asking for the stance setup that WAR had at the start of Stormblood. You know, the one that everyone complained made WAR too hard to play?

---

Shhhh, you're making too much sense. People will think you've gone mad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

-snip-

---

That was my basic thought when it came to DRK's stance. Unlike Paladin - who doesn't need oGCD stances due to no stance-based skill dynamics - and WAR, DRK could definitely benefit from oGCD Grit due to a lot of skills behaving differently when in and out of Grit. But with the way it is, said dynamic cannot be achieved without an insane cost of 1800MP AND a global cooldown. Even dropping the stance before Syphon Strike ( HS -> DA -> grit-drop -> Syphon ) can cause a clip before the next skill properly goes off. Re-entering Grit in the middle of a fight is not only DPS-wise an absolute no-go, it also hurts the dynamic and fluidity that DRK is supposed to have.

And as you describe it so well, it still retains the 1800 MP cost and thus still comes with a risk.

Just a food for thought. Anyone think its weird that the stance we would want to dance with the most is also the highest cost? Paladin has an equal split of 600 between its stances, where as Dark Knight has to give up 1800 mp to get into grit. Why? I get that they give up a GCD for each switch, but this seems excessive on a class that needs to use mp so much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

snip

---

well is designe to make you dont want to dance with it, thats obvious.
stance dancing is not part of PLD and DRK diccionary by desing but you know, the meta dont care.

I wonder when SE Will update the concept of tank stances.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shao32

I wonder when SE Will update the concept of tank stances.

---

Personally, I'm hoping they give up on the idea of Tank stances for PLD and DRK, as unless they are going to copy WAR (with tied-in abilities) the stances really add nothing to the gameplay.

For PLD they wouldn't even need to change anything (except maybe dropping the pointless gauge and shortening the cooldown on Bulwark).

For DRK, give them back Reprisal as a class skill, and give Darks Arts a few more thoughful defensive uses (as honestly, +potency is quite boring).

NB: In terms of 'balance' for damage and enmity, give tenacity a significant effect on enmity and, if needed, simply lower the damage of dungeon / raid enemies slightly.