And a link to the article:
http://www.mmorpg.com/final-fantasy-...ida-1000012236
And a link to the article:
http://www.mmorpg.com/final-fantasy-...ida-1000012236
Players aren't stupid. Those who want to try a new build will try, other will follow a guide, and amongst those who follow a guide, they may modify it a little and find something new.Quote:
Even if players see they have the freedom to set their own gear [in terms of stats and effects], they will try to find the most efficient combination, so the best-in-slot will be set by someone and others will just follow them. In order to give people interesting and fun content, we made the gear system as simple as possible.
Also, he says the current "system" allows for players to easily get back into the game after a break, and then says that, with customisation, players may blindly follow a guide. Make the link between the 2 statements : players' guides precisely allows other players to easily get back in the game.
Finally, the goal, the motivation of making a RPG in the first place is customisation. In FFXIV, the RPG aesthetic (numbers to increase, gauges to fill, etc.) only serves to build massive walls of chore, and then makes the players feel good with "quality of life" updates that makes the chores a little easier to deal with (and, in worst case, it gives the devs an excuse to sell the jump potion, a.k.a "You can pay us, the devs, to skip the boring part of the game we have built"
PS : On the interview itself, I really appreciate that they have added a summary before the interview.
Thank you for sharing!
Just want to thank Yoshida and the devs for all the dedication and for not making FFXIV like other mmos where progression is for the few. Can't wait for Eureka and new glamour system.
They said they're looking for ways to give the overworld some new challenges, we should give them ideas :D I guess the hard part is the rewards part, hmmm I'll have to think of something.
It worries me he doesn't see the problem with this statement. It was an interesting read otherwise, and I'm really looking forward to the kind of things they can add with the lesser focus on dungeons, at least in odd numbered patches. My only complaint about the Lakshmi fight is that it's not repeatable.Quote:
We don’t really see the [power] level of jobs as being in disparity, but in terms of their compatibility with content.
Well I mean is he wrong? You can have all the freedom to customise gear you like, ultimately it's going to boil down to one mathematical superior setup that everyone and their dog will follow. By expanding the amount of options out you just wind up making it harder for players to all keep up. Gear is the great equaliser in this game and it lets individual skill be more of a determining factor :)
Wonky builds and "imaginative setups" were a product of crudely designed and unoptimized mechanics of older MMOs, where things were all over the place and so you sometimes had to think outside the box when it came to engaging a certain enemy. Most of the time this wasn't wholly intended, the developers wouldn't have some grand design, they just put together what sounded cool. The old raid bosses in WoW where you had to equip low level gear for the elemental resistances comes to mind.
Doing this now in a game that is very controlled and planned ahead would then need to start designing content specifically for these mechanics. And intentionally trying to design wonky is a lot more effort that just doing what you do.
A subset of RPGs are all about numbers and fiddling, most primarily make a RPG to tell a story first and foremost. Even with the ones designed with customization in mind, there will always be the optimal build, and everything below subpar, just to varying degrees.
"We have three jobs — Paladin, Dark Knight and Warrior — and these all give a different and unique experience while they work as a tank. Any job can be played as a main tank or off-tank, and now, with the changes to Warrior’s Shake It Off” — previously an obsolete self-cleanse, now a buff that protects the party — “we think they are all on the same level and that the balance is very good.”
Yoshi has lost his mind.
When is the next Live Letter? I'll listen to an entire hour explanation, if that is the topic. Sweep away! :DQuote:
That sweeping changes to glamour system ‘that would take an hour to explain’ will come in patch 4.2
:mad:Quote:
“Another example is the glamour system, which is going to receive a huge revamp in 4.2. Players may not notice because it is not battle related, but ..."
Oh you tease!Quote:
"The changes are so gigantic that it would probably take an hour to explain everything. If we were to discuss it even partially, it would just be the tip of the iceberg anyway ... We’re hoping to discuss this in the Letter from the Producer Live if people can wait for that."
Alternatively, it makes the distinction, that a lot of hype-tracking players do not: balance is not a general concept; it shifts with every mechanic that may favor even a single significant ability in even a single viable meta (that may become first-tier as a result).
On the other hand:
Falls a lot on pretense itself. Gearing has often been used by creative players to create setups optimal for their situation that are regularly called garbage or muddled in their distinction from theory-crafted "generally optimal" setups, yet outperform them.Quote:
Even if players see they have the freedom to set their own gear [in terms of stats and effects], they will try to find the most efficient combination, so the best-in-slot will be set by someone and others will just follow them. In order to give people interesting and fun content, we made the gear system as simple as possible.
The problem with these customization has been overwhelmingly a community issue. That's not to say it isn't damn easy to get wrong, and many a customization option has been dead on arrival -- but that is due to implementation, not the concept itself.
Personally, I'd actually be fine with moving into an even simpler set of stats, so long as each can be better balanced AND more impactful, such that there's more breadth of player choice and feeling thereof. Short of adding a Mastery-style mechanic (with an effect drawing towards the distinct advantages of any given job -- and notoriously hard to balance satisfactorily against multiple compositions and surrounding playstyles), there are only three real secondary stat dynamics -- damage floor, damage ceiling, damage rate. This can be given in many shades if given unto resource stats (such as crit chance being finely stackable -- its rate of acquisition or effectiveness thereof affected by stats -- and consumed at will, rather than by RNG alone), but otherwise it's just those three.
And that's the part that perturbs me here, and has with a lot of Yoshida interviews in the past, though I didn't even wholly notice why this nagging feeling was forming again until seeing the second thread reply:
That definitely seems the case. For whatever design philosophy to which Yoshida might affix himself, his game's implementation of that concept really is muddled. If stats should be granted as simply as possible, why would you siphon the effectiveness of Critical Strike to feed into a fourth, redundant stat, Direct Hit? Worse still, the scaling of these stats has not been fixed. Direct Hit's scaling makes it the most powerful choice for non-crit-based offensive classes (Monk and Bard) until x point, at which time the quadratic gains of Critical Strike again leave everything else behind. Skill Speed still encounters massive indirect scaling issues through disproportionate (non-scaled) resource consumption and animation locks. That's not simplicity, whereby theorycrafting isn't rewarding enough to make stats unintuitive. That's just leaving something unfinished (not scaling appropriately with the stats' obvious impacts) for fear of it seeming to someone, somewhere, that it's not that simple. But comprehensive design on the developers part is what is most able to make the experience feel intuitive to the player. Accounting for certain impacts and not for others is what makes things complicated on the player's end. A job left unfinished is what complicates things, not the comprehensiveness of adjustments (e.g. appropriate and future-proofed scaling).Quote:
"It's not what some would call a modern online game, with the developers mindset clearly focused on long term strategies."
And be it skill acquisition or use, the way side-content works, underlying combat systems, or whatever else, I keep getting that feeling from the game's designs, as if obvious and broadly standard QoL features could be refused for fear of babying the player or convoluted design could be excused under the guise of difficulty or distinction in the same paragraph by which skill pruning is described as paring away artificial difficulty. For every design concept broached, there are handful of in-game implementations made within that shift of design goal that contradict its alleged intent. For almost every explanation of a given design, there's a vital way in which that goal given for that design is also harmed... by that same design. It just feels so piecework at times. And I get that half-measures are at times a necessity of development combined with deadlines, but I really do wish they'd spend some more time occasionally to actually meet, not just approach, their alleged goals, and double down their (would-be) oversights.
tl;dr: You know, I really wish they would put in more long-term thought instead of just continuing to toss out more of whatever gives them the extra step, as poorly as that step may lead. Luckily, we're seeing systemic revisions to fix past oversights, but it would be awesome to not have to wait an expansion just to see fixes to problems that were obviously going to occur solved. These shouldn't be seen; part of creating the given content should be not leave glaring holes in its design, even if they may take a some time to be fully felt.
In my opinion, in a basically MOBA-esque level of design such as XIV's, customization is what you do as a last resort in order to broaden the attractiveness of a given class, (job), or role when all other options that do not include mutual exclusion will not suffice.
In a true RPG, on the other hand, (open) customization ought still to be less a way to define one's character than it is to portray the world, the underlying manipulable systems of physics, magic, etc., the schools or paths of training, mentorship, adaptation, and so forth.
In either case, these should be as intuitive as possible, and should not need rely on a seemingly separate game from the game's menus or loot tables or so forth to immerse or otherwise entertain players.
That said, how, when all portions of a skill set are essentially arbitrary and non-manipulable, should a player's knowing what stats or lateral gear choices ought to contribute most to their playstyle in their coming conditions be less evidence of player skill than, say, knowing their rotations or break-points? None of these were especially intuitive in the first place, nor can any be pieced together by without time spent in one's menus. If SE were simply to stop hiding the effects of their stats, it would be of no difference from surveying one's skill potencies and refresh rates.
Even if players see they have the freedom to set their own gear [in terms of stats and effects], they will try to find the most efficient combination, so the best-in-slot will be set by someone and others will just follow them. In order to give people interesting and fun content, we made the gear system as simple as possible.
Well now I know what to expect from the relic armor he talked about not worth the time like the rest of the gear. I'll play the new content and not worry about end game anymore and move on until next few patches the rewards for it just not worth it Imo. /Shrugs
The fact that he thinks DRK is fine is just ridiculous.
I mean, it's kind of nice to feel safe about denying auction or lottery... but why prevent people from preparing it...?Quote:
There are times where it feels like housing in FFXIV makes as many headlines as the rest of the game combined. In the wake of the Shirogane housing controversy — in which many players were left unable to buy a home following an early morning rush — Yoshida apologized, later saying additional wards and a ‘fair and square’ purchase system would be added.
I ask him if he’s willing to provide details of what that might look like, suggesting auctions or lotteries, but he declined to elaborate to minimise the risk of a repeat of last time: “If we show people the requirements now, they’ll start to prepare for it, so we’re going to keep the information until we’re close to the release.”
Watch that be what they do, lol. Can't have the advantage if everyone has the disadvantage right?
There's a huge disparity in terms of mitigation/raid utility/DPS which in the end bring Drk at the bottom of the 3 tanks, yes it can clear content and be fully playable no ones denying that we're talking that it's the worst out of the 3 tanks and War/Pld can do so much more than Drk. Just because world first UCOB was with a Drk doesn't excuse it's terrible design and what it can bring in a raid vs what the other 2 tanks bring.
Anyone else getting excited for the Glamour Iceberg? Can we have a Glamour Primal? Will 999 stacks be coming in 4.2? Do they use the term "tip of the iceberg" in Japanese? Will I find 4.2 under my tree, next month?
I wish to be enlightened. :D
RE: his sentences on glamour... I'm not going to be optimistic, but I am now cautiously not-pessimistic.
That said, they have a long history of implementing features and completely missing the point of what makes them enjoyable, so who knows...
All it means is that any changes they're going to make to the housing system will NOT actually address the root of the problem: supply. If they were truly fixing housing, supply would cease to be an issue, and thus it would not matter how many people "prepare" for it.
And if one build is deemed mathematically superior, you'll be called an idiot for attempting to deviate from it in any content that matters. We needs look no further than FFXI where certain jobs were outright blocked from parties due to their builds simply not measuring up comparatively. FFXIV already suffers from this, albeit it less so. There's a reason Ultimate groups have practically locked the melee slots to Ninja and Dragoon. Their respective utility trumps anything Samurai and Monk offer. A greater emphasise on those differences will inevitably results in jobs being alienated more than some already are.
I'm not anticipating it will save much if any inventory space, but I do see them implementing something akin to how Squadrons work right now. A separate menu opens and whatever gear you slot there glamours over their armour. I imagine they'll allow us to save "builds" or something to that effect. I also suspect prisms will be reduced to one that can be crafted by any class ala dye.
Glamour changes in 4.2....
Yoshi is such a tease. Also, I'm way more excited for this than I have any right to be.
Semi related i'm santa in that photo :P
For this to occur, the combat in the game has to be disturbingly as it would affect maximal to effective throughput, the other choices significantly underpowered, or that "build" has to be one you swap between on a fight by fight basis.
Mathematically superior builds often underperform due to the contexts of given fights. It is only when a generally strongest option is also given no effective weakness -- you know, that most obvious failure of balancing design -- that this becomes a technical issue, rather than just a product of oversimplification, misassumption, and bait for the officious and under-informed.
This scares me because they have a history of overcomplicating what should be simple features. Glamour prisms happened to be one of those features, mostly because they weren't really necessary. All one has to do is look to WoW, Rift, or a fair amount of other MMOs to see what a good glamour system looks like. I'm keeping my expectations low, and not just about the "glamour iceberg". Hoping to be impressed eventually.
Speaking as a long-time WoW player, myself, it's worth noting that default class complexity (baseline) and mutually exclusive complexity (e.g. talents) are very separate things, and that pre-combat choice can often come at cost of in-combat choice. Talents, for instance, can be made such as to newly allow or disallow baseline toolkit options. Unless the removal of any given part of the toolkit allows new things to be done with the remainder (think Decimation or Demon Blades) that are more attactive than the greater spread of original options (because of a greater number of new derivative options), then that ends up making customization one step forward and two steps back. There's a lot to get wrong, and often talent systems have taken the blame where that would more accurately fall on a gutting of baseline toolkits or a rebalancing of the individual abilities to make their use more obvious, but thereby narrowing the range of their use (e.g. AoEs that will never see ST use unless talented into, rather than crafting situations by which the key is still useful).
Not remotely. Here:
Basically,
Fundamentally,Quote:
Out-of-combat choices (i.e. in customization) are siphoned from would-be in-combat choices.
Effectively,Quote:
Character combat-related customization is limitation. It is, definitionally, denying assets already made unless you have selected all the relevant choices.
Stl;sdr:Quote:
A particular class will still see only a given amount of complexity as per developer goals and time-budget. You can have that complexity available at all times, or split up such that only certain glimpses each are given through customization. Adding customization does not increase total complexity, but it may reduce effective complexity (sometimes for the better, sometimes not).
Quote:
Customization =/=> Complexity.
Instead, sometimes there's just enough, or even too much otherwise, complexity to pare it back via customization.
I don't really see your point? You used a lot of words to explain to me how Blizzard tends to poorly execute a lot of their systems? Sure, I know. That's why I don't play their games.
Axing player choice entirely and making everything linear choice with outdated vertical progression models (straight out of Cataclysm, even), don't make a compelling game. And none of Yoshi-P's reasoning for why is anything that makes me even slightly confident that this is a game worth my time or money. I'm holding out for Eureka, but honestly, my expectations are extremely low and 4.2 will probably be the last time I bother with this game at all.
This sentence in particular got me thinking about an old quote from Ghostcrawler the old WoW dev, to paraphrase he said something along the lines of "it's amazing what players will go through for even a theoretical 1% dps increase" and it's most definitely a sentiment I agree with.
But when I read about the concept of "builds" I wonder what exactly do they mean in context for this game? I think there needs to be some establishment of what exactly people mean by that before any real meaningful conversation can take place. The only sort of "build" we have right now is "how do you meld your materia?" Do they mean they want secondaries to be more meaningful so that something like direct hit is as good as skill speed for every job? Or do they mean different ways of playing the same job, such as having the option of making a smn that forgoes DoT's entirely in exchange for higher potency ruins and having both be competitive?
Currently, materia and tweaking whatever are your best secondaries with the right gear (augmented allagan vs genji) are the only sort of "build" there is with everyone following the same model to maximize their dps. That brings me along to another question, are people saying they want more options than the "maximize your dps for every role" that is so popular now? Now all of these are subjective of course, but unless we can define what people mean by saying "more customization in builds" I feel that this conversation won't go very far.
People want to turn this into the worst kind of mmos that they've quit. You know the ones with 300 systems built into the combat where the grind is incredible.
No thank you, we have materia already.
Yeah, don't get me wrong. I'm more than aware of the fact that non-battle related content is treated as the "red-headed step-iceberg" for this game. Still, it doesn't make me any less interested in hearing more details on their plans. I want to know if this new glamour system is going to be the next best thing since Desynthesis or Verminion.
One just doesn't casually mention a four-year long requested feature, disregard is as "non-battle content," state it would take an hour to explain, compare it to an iceberg, and then expect not to peak my interest.
Even though this is feature is simply "non-battle related content" I do hope they spend a good portion of a future Live Letter explaining it (or just release that portion of the patch notes, as a preview (I'll read it on my own time) ).
Also, if this new feature has some sort of quest or story related content, I hope it includes Redolent Rose in some form or fashion.
It's a fair point. I'm with you on that. But as I said when someone works out the best thing, everything else becomes so much fluff ( especially with the obsession over 1% faster clears in this game). From a dev perspective they have to balance idealism with reality. And the reality is that in this day and age a lot of people want quick and easy access to the hardest content and the best gear, especially if they've been out of circulation for a while. This system lets you do that on a minimal time investment and I'd bet they'd lose more subs than they'd gain changing it.
How the hell does he think tanks are balanced??? Everything DRK does, PLD does better.
Dps? PLD is ahead by over 100, up to 300 at the highest levels.
CDs and utility? Sentinel > Shadow wall, Sheltron = TBN, Divine Veil > TBN, Cover > nothing, Passage of arms > nothing, Dark mind >= Bulwark, Hallowed ground > Living dead(unless benediction?).
=_= admittedly I will still play DRK bc it's fun but still this is rather disappointing to hear.
How would Benediction make Living Dead even reasonably comparable to Hallowed Ground?! The one and only advantage it have is the cooldown being shorter, but at 5 minutes, it's still far more than necessary to take advantage of it in any fight which you have reasonable chances of winning.
What is better, 10sec (nigh-)invincibility or 10sec of not dying (from most attacks)? Hallowed Ground will make sure your HP doesn't even fall down, giving healers ample time to get the tank to full HP with normal heals. Living Dead will be wasted if it won't fall down originally, then the tank will still take damage thus making the healers have to use their emergency heals anyway. But if healers failed to keep the Dark Knight from falling below 1HP due to lack of healing power against mobs, it won't help at all. The Dark Knight will die almost instantly from damage anyway. And using Benediction not only reduces the protection period (or risks wasting it and the tank dying anyway due to PING/lag), but also invalidates all the healing done previous (by the other healer, for example).
Not to mention, the very simple truth. What is better. An "ultimate" skill that works on its own, or an "ultimate" skill that needs another classes "ultimate" skill to work?! I'd say that Hallowed Ground is twice as powerful simply based on that fact, since the healer can keep the Benediction for later.
All in all, Living Dead is absolutely horrid. It is nowhere as good as Hallowed Ground in any normal situation.
And if the developers don't want issues that come with customization, then why even bother with gear?! Make player stats fixed for their level and voila. Couldn't be any simpler than that. Leave gear for glamour, so the problem of unique gear being shared by multiple different jobs is no longer an issue either.
Of course, that would suck. Dungeons already have very little to offer once you do them for the clear and then for however long it takes to get experience till it stops being the top-spot for it. Adding stuff like random bonuses or sets would increase that length significantly, even if the random stats would be small. And set bonuses would make players actually consider going for a full set from dungeon, instead of just focusing all the intent on limited few highest level content, and just going with whatever while leveling. Adding unique bonuses, like movement speed or decreased cast times (without actually decreasing cooldowns), mana reduction etc. would add variety, and it's very hard to set the "BIS" gear with such non-stat bonuses (that borders on impossible depending on the variety and nature of the bonuses). And if Yoshida himself said that its by design that some classes are worse in this content but better at some other content, then it should be perfectly fine for some gear sets being better in this or that content (like, that extra run speed in fights with lots of running around, or cast time reduction in frequent AoE's that aren't necessarily large though).
Perfectly stated. Thank you.Quote:
Now all of these are subjective of course, but unless we can define what people mean by saying "more customization in builds" I feel that this conversation won't go very far.
Players often talk about the desire for more customization -- which I, too, think would be great -- but customization has to answer the question, "For what purpose?"
Without additional purposes, why waste time customizing?
I'm a little disappointed by this. It means whatever they have in mind for housing isn't "fair and sqaure", but is something that can be prepared for.Quote:
“If we show people the requirements now, they’ll start to prepare for it, so we’re going to keep the information until we’re close to the release.”
Remember the last time he said the same thing for housing? It was before housing was first released, and the reason was that housing prices were many times higher than he originally promised.
Perhaps all they're going to do is to make the prices so high that nobody can afford the new plots, so that everyone has to wait for discounted prices, and call it "fair and square".