Dear DRK Mains

Don't you guys feel like your class is underperforming compared to other tank classes? I feel like dark passage mp cost and dmg for that ability isn't worth it. Also I don't know why the blackest night isn't working like warriors shake it off. I dont feel like bringing drk to table is as profitable as I would with pal or war. I think dark arts animation is a bit too long and blood price should bring more mp back per hit without extending that abilty because cd is really long. The whole drk ability kit feels overloaded with aoe dmg. I m assuming that we have unleash only for lower dungeon lvls so we don't get to use abysall drain with dark arts that would make things too easy. I find shadow wall cd too long. Extra 10% dmg reduction isnt worth it. Imo Dark mind should reduce ALL type of dmg. Other classes dont have to stress about what kind of dmg to reduce. I find it unecesarry to sepearate it only to magick dmg reduction. Your thoughts? Btw I hope you love my click bait title.

Probably won't play DRK until either the job is removed or the devs get off their ass and re-evaluate why DRKS are brooding and looking forward to raising hell and do something about it.

No, they don't underperform. Yes of course needs fix somethings, but that doesn't mean at all is a bad class. Most people who complaint probably have no idea about the job and just repeat what other says. I've main DRK since launch on Heavenward, I didn't feel in any moment behind other tanks, but of course, some fix can help.

For my point of view as DRK. It needs the following adjusts.
- Scourge back will help improve damage (Maybe we can add the Black Blood recover each tick like Slated Earth, but seems OP).
- Dark Arts cost reduced OR MP drain increased.
- Dark Passenger MP cost reduced to their original. (I don't really see it as necesary, but a lot of people agree here)

Now, a thing I always wanted but is maybe too OP: Dark Arts + The Blackest Night become party wide shield. This will make on pair with other tanks in party mitigation. If you think is too overpower, think the cost of 4800 MP of both Dark Arts and The Blackest Nigth.

And please, think and try instead of follow like a bible what "some raiders" says. I don't like Paladin for example, but I won't come to spread that "is a bad job". It happen with WHM on 4.0, with PLD on Heavensward, even with SMN. Just don't act as if the world ends because is not a Op. I like DRK and I want it become OP, but just because isn't doesn't mean is bad to the point "OMG I won't play ANYMORE DRk!!!"

It is no necessary being dramatic about it.

It is the weakest tank at the moment. Not by a whole lot, but still.

The kit needs some tweaks and adjustments definitely. Though its not horrifically underpowered like people say it is. I think part of the issue is out of the 3 tanks DRK feels like it has the steepest learning curve. I've lvled all 3 tanks to 70 and recently finished my PLD armored lion mount and decided to start on the drk armored panther and nearly died a few times since I hadn't actively used the job in a couple months, though the healer running off to pull additional groups of monsters in skalla probably didn't help much. Grabbing enmity on large groups of enemies is easy as a drk. The learning curve is in mitigation and MP management and I feel like some of the skills taken from their kit to become role skills should probably be returned to the job.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

The kit needs some tweaks and adjustments definitely. Though its not horrifically underpowered like people say it is. I think part of the issue is out of the 3 tanks DRK feels like it has the steepest learning curve.

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In a dungeon setting? Yes. DRK has the most complexity of all tanks by far as it not only has the most complex aoe dps rotation but the most to consider/buttons to press when mitigation is involved.

In a raid setting the class is really dumbed down, as the single target rotation feels like it's not far off from 2.0 PLD.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

No, they don't underperform.*snip*

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well the problem with people is they are always being overdramatic , ive always tryed to tell people that whm isnt that "bad" like people wanted to make it sound :P in fact the gameplay style of whm didnt changed that much at all :P

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Originally Posted by Coatl

In a dungeon setting? Yes. DRK has the most complexity of all tanks by far as it not only has the most complex aoe dps rotation but the most to consider/buttons to press when mitigation is involved.

In a raid setting the class is really dumbed down, as the single target rotation feels like it's not far off from 2.0 PLD.

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and u think 4.0 pld is that much better? 123 then requiescat and holy spirit? :P

I think all of you find my word "underperforming" too harsh. This thread isn't about making drk op but competitive to other classes. I simply find more reasons to bring other 2 classes over drk. More utility for drk would be helpfull maybe? After all drk power was nerfed after all to some degree and then raised a little. It looks like some changes are needed.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Probably won't play DRK until either the job is removed...

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Uh... What?

I don't know if the drk topics bleeding into the general forums is a good thing or a bad thing but i guess as they say even bad publicity is still good publicity.

Probably a bad thing because the tank subthread is already filled with people talking about DRK and if the devs were going to notice the complaints/feedback it would be there where it has been a topic for weeks.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

and u think 4.0 pld is that much better? 123 then requiescat and holy spirit? :P

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So you don't do dots? okay cool.

First of all, the thread title fails at everything.
Second of all, DRK may not be my main job in general but it is my main Tank job. Therefore, in my honest opinion, despite PLD and WAR overall having more utility... No. I honestly do not believe DRK is underperforming. It would be awesome if it had the same beefy HP WAR does though...

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Originally Posted by Joe777

First of all, the thread title fails at everything.
Second of all, DRK may not be my main job in general but it is my main Tank job. Therefore, in my honest opinion, despite PLD and WAR overall having more utility... No. I honestly do not believe DRK is underperforming. It would be awesome if it had the same beefy HP WAR does though...

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Relative to its counterparts, Dark Knight is underperforming. It's objectively worse at every aspect save large dungeon pulls. Now that doesn't mean it isn't viable, but the same could be said of Heavensward Monk or Paladin. Neither brought enough tools to truly offset their counterparts. Samurai, Black Mage and, to some degree, Monk still suffer from that issue, though less so than in Heavensward.

Out of the three, DRK lags behind both PLD and WAR. The mitigation tools just aren't up enough to snuff and the dps is questionable.

I mean, its good...its just that it could be better. Much better.

As a DRK main, is DRK viable? yes.

Is it as good as the other 2 tanks? No, not in any way whatsoever outside mass dungeon pulls (which is lol worthy anyways). And i'm sorry, but having your single niche be "aoe dungeon puller" is just outright gorram bad design.

From what i have seen as well, taking a DRK to Ultimate Bahamut is signing your group up to never clear the fight. They simply lack the required tools you need to clear the encounter, such as raid wide shields.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Relative to its counterparts, Dark Knight is underperforming. It's objectively worse at every aspect save large dungeon pulls. Now that doesn't mean it isn't viable, but the same could be said of Heavensward Monk or Paladin. Neither brought enough tools to truly offset their counterparts. Samurai, Black Mage and, to some degree, Monk still suffer from that issue, though less so than in Heavensward.

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Yes so long as DRK has nothing to offer to put it a cut above or on par with its peers it will comparatively underperform. I was speaking in general is all lol

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Relative to its counterparts, Dark Knight is underperforming. It's objectively worse at every aspect save large dungeon pulls. Now that doesn't mean it isn't viable, but the same could be said of Heavensward Monk or Paladin. Neither brought enough tools to truly offset their counterparts. Samurai, Black Mage and, to some degree, Monk still suffer from that issue, though less so than in Heavensward.

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^ This right here Drk is under performing why take a Drk when you can bring a Pld and War who bring more utility, damage, and party wide mitigation? Yes every tank can pull everything in dungeons but that's dungeons, you can run anything in any dungeon and it's perfectly fine but when you get into the bleeding edge of raid content and pushing numbers, Drk is vastly outdone by War and Pld.

A lot of Drk mains have either played another class, or just quit tanking and rightfully so they have the choice, I myself rerolled warrior but i'm not having the satisfaction as when I play Drk, the fact that this is bleeding from the tank forums to the general discussion tells you something about tank balance and class balance for that matter.

Not to mention with Ultimate Coil of Bahamut you are a literal liability to your raid group as you cannot provide the tools that a War or Pld does Drk only wishes it could even have those tools but sadly here we are twiddling our thumbs while we wait for SE to acknowledge Drks lack of presence in the raid scene.

As a Drk-by-choice, I concur that it needs fixing. Blood Price drops off in MP gained after level 60, but hey, at least we get a nice aoe attack that costs 50 points from the blood gauge. Dark Arts is expensive and the boost it gives to Syphon Strike basically only cancels itself out. DPS could be a smidge better (I'm not asking for a lot on this one). YoshiP said his team was going to evaluate and do something about the least used abilities, but then the DRK's dot got taken away . . . because reasons (much like BRD's Flaming Arrow).

As stated a couple times already in this thread by other people, the job is still viable, but it's not entirely comparable to WAR and PLD.


My own recommendation for helping Drk catch up to War and Pld is this:
- Bring back our dot, Scourge, and take it off of global cooldown, so that we can weave it into our single target rotations. If you elect to keep it on GCD then that could be fine as long as the dps gain from the ability remains worthwhile. This alone can address the DPS and help us feel less like 2.0 Paladins when fighting bosses.
- Improve the MP regen via Blood Price post level 60. This does not need to be a lot. All it needs to be is a suitable accompaniment to Quietus during trash pulls, as well as toward the Syphon and Souleater part of the single target rotations. Right now, it feels like, past level 60, Blood Price does nothing for the MP at all, even though it does add a little here and there, but this improvement would make things so much better.
- Discount the cost of Dark Arts without cutting its bonus to anything. DA + Syphon? Greater MP gain instead of the same overall. DA + Dark Passenger? Powerful attack on cooldown that can be recovered quickly enough. DA + Abyssal Drain? Health recovery during trash pulls without sacrificing our MP bars.

Do all three things without weakening anything else a DRK can do, and I promise you that Dark Knights will either be on the same level as Pld and War right now, or else be much, much closer. Again, right now, DRK is viable, but the comparison feels a little sluggish and needs as much help. I am of the opinion that the aforementioned suggestions would fit the bill.

Notice that from all 3 tanks only Pal got to keep his Dot. IN fact he has them 2. I find it a little unfair. :3

It kept Goring Blade because it was a DoT not found on a single non-combo GCD. They pruned those for button bloat (I'm assuming). Hence why Fracture, Scourge, ToD, Mutilate, and Phleb all got removed while Shadow Fang and Goring Blade remained intact. It was a design choice for all melee classes for SB and (I'm assuming) going forward.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

It kept Goring Blade because it was a DoT not found on a single non-combo GCD. They pruned those for button bloat (I'm assuming). Hence why Fracture, Scourge, ToD, Mutilate, and Phleb all got removed while Shadow Fang and Goring Blade remained intact. It was a design choice for all melee classes for SB and (I'm assuming) going forward.

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It's still used to apply Dot. I don't think anyone uses it for dps stance, we have different rotation for that or another one if you want use spirit which isn't even a rotation just a way to build up your gauge with decend dmg. They could simply remove dot effect and buff numbers on gory blade to make it a dps rotation. Instead they overloaded pal kit a bit in my opinion but let's stay focused on drk :p.

Just to clarify abot gory blade with dps stance for gory blade I mean spamming it endlessly to deal dmg. Obviously it is used for dps stance to apply the dot and that's it.