SAM: anything you would add/remove for 5.0?

i think it plays perfectly fine, but i want better aesthetic, cooler looking skills and stuff. most of sam skills look kinda bland. def yukikaze needs a cooler effect imo. the hissatsu skills could also get some flashiness.

i know not everyone likes auras, but i do and man, itd be cool if sam gets some sort of aura

and SAM lb3 is probably the lamest lookign of all the melee dps. most of the time you cant even tell its happening compared to giant blue dragon, giant floating ritual swords, and giant pillar of light


gameplay wise, does anyone even use hissatsu seigan in any serious content?

This is true of all the melee jobs, but especially true of samurai. We NEED an agro dump. Diversion simply isn't good enough for the amount of agro we generate. I could see this implemented as part of a comb of skills not unlike the Red Mage Corps-a-Corps/Displacement ability

Samurai uses Yanten to backstep for damage + agro dump, have that combo into Enpi like it already does, then use Gyoten to get back on the boss.

And to your second question, I have used Seigan in O2s, but not sure if it's worth it or not. Generally I will use Third Eye during the stack mechanics to trigger it, but it does feel like it's a bit of a waste of an OGCD to use it. It's a skill that, given the hoop you have to jump through to trigger it, should have a higher potency than Shinten, and maybe have its Kenki cost raised to be the same as Shinto.

Edit: Also, extend the duration of the Third Eye shield. 3 seconds is WAY too short to actually be able to use it to mitigate party-wide damage. Similar skills from other jobs last for 20 seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wereotter

This is true of all the melee jobs, but especially true of samurai. We NEED an agro dump. Diversion simply isn't good enough for the amount of agro we generate. I could see this implemented as part of a comb of skills not unlike the Red Mage Corps-a-Corps/Displacement ability

Samurai uses Yanten to backstep for damage + agro dump, have that combo into Enpi like it already does, then use Gyoten to get back on the boss.

---

Frankly, they should just make Invigorate have an aggro 1/2 effect like basically every other resource regenerating skill has. Refresh, Tactician, and Lucid Dreaming all have that as an effect, it's kind of odd that invigorate doesn't.

Seigen also does have higher potency per Kenki than Shinten, not by much, but if you're willing to go through the effort of proccing it its DPS gain (if a very minor one).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wereotter

Stuffs

---

5 sec third eye would be awesome and that's all I need for the current SAM.
About aggro though,it should be fine as long as you use Diversion everytime its up.
But if the MT plans to stay in attack stance the whole run in PUG not with their static then its on them.
More aggro dump skills will never be a bad thing but I don't think any SAM in PUG gonna use it anyway.

I think Third Eye's 3 seconds duration is fine for how short the cooldown is.
Seigan definitely could use potency/kenki adjustment though, something like 330 or 340 potency for 25 Kenki same as Shinten, making it feels more rewarding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosaicex

I think Third Eye's 3 seconds duration is fine for how short the cooldown is.
Seigan definitely could use potency/kenki adjustment though, something like 330 or 340 potency for 25 Kenki same as Shinten, making it feels more rewarding.

---

Problem as it currently is comes downto needing impeccable timing in order to get it right. You not only have to get the buff on, you have to also get the server to register the buff before the damage hits you, giving you very little margin of error to get it to trigger. In O2s, half the time I end up with either having the buff fall off before I take the raid-wide damage, or the buff doesn't register in time, and in either case, I don't get the Open Eyes proc. Extending the buff to 5-7 seconds gives a little more leeway to use it during stack mechanics and the like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kahnom

5 sec third eye would be awesome and that's all I need for the current SAM.
About aggro though,it should be fine as long as you use Diversion everytime its up.
But if the MT plans to stay in attack stance the whole run in PUG not with their static then its on them.
More aggro dump skills will never be a bad thing but I don't think any SAM in PUG gonna use it anyway.

---

This may be true, but I'm thinking of situations like in O3s, my group has needed me to save Diversion for adds like popping it before attacking White Flame, Iron Giant, and Apanda, so I don't get to get that benefit on Halicarnassus. And as we have no ninja, it means tanks have to spend more time in tank stance and spend more agro combos. Also the argument can be made that the skills are backwards. Ranged jobs are more burst heavy, and so could make more use of diversion, which Bard and Machinist don't get, while melee jobs are more sustained, meaning they ought to have the agro dump that they're currently lacking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Frankly, they should just make Invigorate have an aggro 1/2 effect like basically every other resource regenerating skill has. Refresh, Tactician, and Lucid Dreaming all have that as an effect, it's kind of odd that invigorate doesn't.

Seigen also does have higher potency per Kenki than Shinten, not by much, but if you're willing to go through the effort of proccing it its DPS gain (if a very minor one).

---

Attaching an agro dump to Invigorate is a pretty good idea! My only worry would be that I tend to save Invigorate in case of death, at which point all your agro is gone anyway... however it's possible that now it's not such a big deal to need the TP after raising. I'll have to check that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wereotter

Problem as it currently is comes downto needing impeccable timing in order to get it right. You not only have to get the buff on, you have to also get the server to register the buff before the damage hits you, giving you very little margin of error to get it to trigger. In O2s, half the time I end up with either having the buff fall off before I take the raid-wide damage, or the buff doesn't register in time, and in either case, I don't get the Open Eyes proc. Extending the buff to 5-7 seconds gives a little more leeway to use it during stack mechanics and the like.

---

I never have any particular problem with the timing but I understand what you mean. I'm already used to anticipating raid wide aoe damage in general (to deal with using Reprisal, TBN, etc. which has longer duration but much more punishing if you missed), even thing like Gravity Manipulation or Unstable Gravity stack in 2s. Just my opinion but I think 3 seconds is pretty generous considering most raid wide aoes with cast bar usually come in 2.5 or 5 seconds increment.
That said, wouldn't hurt if they increase it to 4 or 5 seconds though, but I think they want to keep that high risk feeling like when you parry/counter from other type of games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

gameplay wise, does anyone even use hissatsu seigan in any serious content?

---

People SHOULD. You net more potency per kenki with seigan than shinten. So any time you can get a third eye proc to use it you should be doing so. With that said, I would like to see more reward from correctly using third eye and getting that interaction to further distance efficient and well-practiced samurais from others. But I'm fine with how it is working and functioning. Going with that theme of efficiency, I'd like to see more quirks for efficiency as a Samurai. Because it's fairly accessible for a dps and with how well it performs in content I'd like to see a higher skill ceiling with the job to really make that high dps feel rewarding.

Beyond that, I agree with what other people are saying about samurai needing more aggro dump. Especially when you compare it to other jobs that generate less aggro but have more tools for dropping enmity like Nin and Drg.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Frankly, they should just make Invigorate have an aggro 1/2 effect like basically every other resource regenerating skill has. Refresh, Tactician, and Lucid Dreaming all have that as an effect, it's kind of odd that invigorate doesn't..

---

If they did that, they would have to rework diversion since it would be useless, it's not like you need TP anyway at a start of a fight or at any moment if you don't AOE/die so... It will be a complete replacement of a role skill. Since they don't seem to have the best ideas in this department, I don't think we are gonna see this any moment soon ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wereotter

: Also, extend the duration of the Third Eye shield. 3 seconds is WAY too short to actually be able to use it to mitigate party-wide damage. Similar skills from other jobs last for 20 seconds.

---

This is probably the main thing I'd want to change. The duration simply isn't long enough for the most part. Especially with some of the long ass animations on some of those stack mechanics. Where you can't act or press anything for a good 10 seconds so making use of seigan is impossible.

And maybe reduce the Cool down on agatha a bit. Some of those low hp moves have quite lengthy cooldowns. Should be more in line with misery ends cooldown at least makes it more worth a slot on the action bar

I'd also tweak their aoe a little. Make the fuga a conal aoe instead of a circular.
Just because imo it doesn't make much sense having fuga as a circular and the both mangetsu and oka are conal attacks
it just Isn't very fluid

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzian

And maybe reduce the Cool down on agatha a bit. Some of those low hp moves have quite lengthy cooldowns. Should be more in line with misery ends cooldown at least makes it more worth a slot on the action bar

---

Misery's End seems to be the odd one out in this case. Assassinate on ninja has a pretty hefty cooldown by comparison too. I wouldn't mind if all the longer ones got a reduced cooldown, but I would think it would be more balanced, and an easier adjustment, if they just increased the one short one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosaicex

I never have any particular problem with the timing but I understand what you mean. I'm already used to anticipating raid wide aoe damage in general (to deal with using Reprisal, TBN, etc. which has longer duration but much more punishing if you missed), even thing like Gravity Manipulation or Unstable Gravity stack in 2s. Just my opinion but I think 3 seconds is pretty generous considering most raid wide aoes with cast bar usually come in 2.5 or 5 seconds increment.
That said, wouldn't hurt if they increase it to 4 or 5 seconds though, but I think they want to keep that high risk feeling like when you parry/counter from other type of games.

---

I'm thinking for other times you know you're going to take damage but there is no cast bar to look at, like the stack in O2s, or after the second sword in Susano EX, it becomes guesswork as to when you should pop Third Eye. Whereas other jobs with defensive cool downs get a longer time to take advantage of the mitigation effect, Samurai needs to time it perfectly to not only take less damage, but to proc that move/heal. Only fight without a cast bar I've managed to get it right every time so far is beginning of the second phase in Shinryu EX.

Taking it into comparison, Riddle of Earth has a 30 second duration to get a reduced damage and refresh greased lightning, and Shade Shift has a 20 second duration. I feel like just to make it balanced with other similar DPS actions, it should have a slightly longer duration.

As far as aesthetics and animations for skills, SAM and Monk need help.

Though Monk even more. At the very least SAM does have some nice looking elemental aftereffects, but Monk? Jeez, so boring to watch.

I like Samurai the way it is. The last thing I'd add is any sort of extra flashiness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barachim

I like Samurai the way it is. The last thing I'd add is any sort of extra flashiness.

---

Animation wise they could use some improvements. Their movements are rather tame and very grounded, a lot like Monk. Though their effects look great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Animation wise they could use some improvements. Their movements are rather tame and very grounded, a lot like Monk. Though their effects look great.

---

Take some cue from Machinist. They are cool aren't they?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wereotter

Taking it into comparison, Riddle of Earth has a 30 second duration to get a reduced damage and refresh greased lightning, and Shade Shift has a 20 second duration. I feel like just to make it balanced with other similar DPS actions, it should have a slightly longer duration.

---

Riddle of Earth is just bandaid fix for monk to keep their grease lighting for certain encounter (O4s comes to mind), it needs to be proc'd by initial hit first for the damage reduction effect to kicks in. It also reduces Monk DPS by at least 5% for the duration they decided to stay in it due to lack of Fist of Fire. Monks generally want to stay away from this skill as far as possible.
As for Shade Shift, yes it lasts 20 second BUT it only works with Physical damage (and thus useless in many cases), and comes with super long cooldown of 120 seconds.
Which is why I think Third Eye sees a lot more use than any of the skill you mentioned. Not only it has super low cd, is pure damage reduction, can be combined with Merciful Eye for free hp, but every proc is also technically a dps gain for SAM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosaicex

Riddle of Earth is just bandaid fix for monk to keep their grease lighting for certain encounter (O4s comes to mind), it needs to be proc'd by initial hit first for the damage reduction effect to kicks in. It also reduces Monk DPS by at least 5% for the duration they decided to stay in it due to lack of Fist of Fire. Monks generally want to stay away from this skill as far as possible.
As for Shade Shift, yes it lasts 20 second BUT it only works with Physical damage (and thus useless in many cases), and comes with super long cooldown of 120 seconds.
Which is why I think Third Eye sees a lot more use than any of the skill you mentioned. Not only it has super low cd, is pure damage reduction, can be combined with Merciful Eye for free hp, but every proc is also technically a dps gain for SAM.

---

Obviously the skills aren't identical, but they're the most comparative skills on other jobs we can look at.Additionally, I would point out that Riddle of Earth does initially apply fists of earth. So while not a full on defensive cooldown like Earth's Reply, the monk does gain an overall damage reduction of 10% just by using the skill and then an additional 10% reduction upon activating earth's reply. I would take a longer cooldown on Third Eye to get a longer duration. I shouldn't be taking damage every 15 seconds in most fights to beed to use the skill that frequently.

The monk point is fair, and I've made the comment that monks should get Earth's Reply immediately upon activating Riddle of Earth, but that's another topic all together.

If anything, the third eye ability need some changes. There are several ways to do this. Something like making the damage mitigation work for any number of hits during activation (like 2nd phase shinryu) or increase duration like others have said.

That and a little more utility. Though we have high personal DPS, we tend to be overshadowed by NIN and DRG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

gameplay wise, does anyone even use hissatsu seigan in any serious content?

---

/thread

10 char

Aggro Dump 100%. Sucks for tanks who are trying to edge out more dps.

Quote:

---

Only fight without a cast bar I've managed to get it right every time so far is beginning of the second phase in Shinryu EX.

---

It does have a castbar. Look at enmity list.

Aggro dump : YES PLEASE. It always frustrates me when PUG co-tank refuses for some reason to circle-Shirk, as our SAM enmity always creeps way too fast and we have no NIN.

If we're looking forward for 5.0 and what we might get (or might want)...

- Obviously, some sort of nutso 100 Kenki ability. I'd prefer a buff, or a damage based oGCD that gives a buff. I was surprised we didn't have one on release. Alternatively, make a trait for when you hit 100 Kenki, some effect triggers.

- I want an ability that removes cast times for a short period of time. Something akin to Triplecast. Maybe 10 seconds or so instead of 'charges' that are depleted.

- Some kind of way to double up on your Sen, or hold your Sen when casting an Iaijutsu. For example, you'd still need 3 Sen for Midare, but if said ability was active, using Midare wouldn't consume them at all.

- I don't think SAM needs party-buffs, but... SAM needs something to keep it competitive for progression and performance party comps. SAM is kind of a joke in PF right now, it's mostly NIN and DRG spots, with MNK being another viable option.

As for what I'd want them to remove, or change...

- I want them to back off of Shinten spam and Hagakure's importance in the rotation. I want them to focus more on the Midare/Guren, "Hit really freaking hard" abilities. I want Hagakure to be more of an "Invigorate" kind of cooldown. One you use as needed, rather than as a core mechanic of the rotation.

- ALTERNATIVELY... Change Hagakure to a static amount of Kenki gain, instead of requiring Sen. Hagakure gives the rotation a decent bit of variation, and it also gives SAM an interesting skill-based choice for, "Burst" or "Sustained", or "Stationary" or "Mobile" Kenki usage based on boss uptime/jumps. It's making a 'resource' out of Sen though, and I think Kenki does that job well enough without Hagakure.

- Also, like everyone else here, either push better implementation of Third-Eye (and Merciful Eyes/ Seigan), or just remove it. Preferably the former, because it is a cool idea for a skill.

Quote:

---

either push better implementation of Third-Eye (and Merciful Eyes/ Seigan), or just remove it

---

Why remove? It feels somewhat underwhelming in numbers, but other than that works ok.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MahoSenshi

Why remove? It feels somewhat underwhelming in numbers, but other than that works ok.

---

It's not that it doesn't work. I'd just say that 3 buttons that hardly affect much of anything aren't worth having. In the future, they'll either have to continue pruning skills, or they'll have to find some genius way to keep introducing new skills/abilities each expac. This is the first on the chopping block, in my opinion. Again, I think they could better implement it (kind of like how it was pre-launch), so it's not like they'd have to remove it. Keep in mind, at the media tour events, Third-Eye was 20% damage reduction, and Merciful Eyes was a 500 potency heal. I think, considering SAM's non-popularity in parties because of how little it brings, there's nothing wrong with us having that.

COIN TOSS!!

Kiddiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing!

XD

Personally, I'd be happy if they made Seigan/Merciful Eyes more substantial for the timing requirements/kenki cost. Or make Seigan kenki-free, but keep the Open eyes req.

I haven't finished leveling SAM to 70 but what I've heard from my static's SAM is that it is in mostly a good place currently, but with other jobs creeping up on it (SMN) it could use some love.

I'll say here what I've been preaching in the massive BLM thread: "raw damage as utility" is a myth. Utility IS damage. Battle Litany is damage, Hypercharge is damage, Trick Attack is damage... etc. All jobs should have some kind of utility even if it's something as small as a 180s recast party wide buff, and SAM should be no different. Not all jobs need to be heaping with utility like BRD is, but no one should ever have to feel like "a burden" to the group because they provide nothing and require being fed or the group working around them (BLM, and partially SAM).

Parties don't want to bring jobs that offer nothing (yes, nothing. Again, raw damage is not stronger than utility + damage as far as the party is concerned), so no job should offer nothing. The adage is good in theory but terribly flawed in practice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llugen

I haven't finished leveling SAM to 70 but what I've heard from my static's SAM is that it is in mostly a good place currently, but with other jobs creeping up on it (SMN) it could use some love.

Parties don't want to bring jobs that offer nothing (yes, nothing. Again, raw damage is not stronger than utility + damage as far as the party is concerned), so no job should offer nothing. The adage is good in theory but terribly flawed in practice.

---

My 30-50k midare crits, 15k kasha and gekko crits (all unbuffed) would beg to differ... there is a reason SAM is untouched by buffs or nerfs... I've never seen SAM not welcome in a party of any size.... and I've not seen anyone on the forums really calling for drastic changes... so I don't really see any need to add more to it...

Increase duration of Third Eye and do one of the following: Remove kenki cost of Seigan or increase its potency. Rework Limit Break animation. Add some extra "flashiness" to actions. Aggro dump combo Yapi-Enpi-Gyoten would be nice, but I usually have diversion on CD so it's fine.

Reduce TP cost of Fuka, Oga, and Mangetsu from 140 TP to 100 TP. Reduce TP cost of Enpi from 160 TP to 120TP.

I would like some change to the duration of Third Eye. I'd say start with five seconds and no further changes to see how that worked. I'd like more damage on Seigan, but I could live with it being kept the same. What I would like is for in the form of some sort of utility that debuffs the target so it's still different from other classes buffing the party. I'd really like to see some aesthetic changes. Have the samurai wear a long and short sword like real samurai. The short sword doesn't have to do anything most of the time, but for the skills in 5.0, it could make use of both of them, say for a 100 kenki move or the level 80 ability. Though having it work with Guren would be cool, both blades drawing the X.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Okamimaru

My 30-50k midare crits, 15k kasha and gekko crits (all unbuffed) would beg to differ... there is a reason SAM is untouched by buffs or nerfs... I've never seen SAM not welcome in a party of any size.... and I've not seen anyone on the forums really calling for drastic changes... so I don't really see any need to add more to it...

---

Sam's high personal dps is great. But their lack of utility puts them in the bottom half for rDPS. So for groups looking to do speed runs or just maximize damage potential of their entire group, samurai is the least desirable melee dps. I do think they are fairly balanced for damage and should not be buffed or nerfed though. And am fine with the place they are in. But just saying you have big crit numbers doesn't really mean anything. Also, calling BS on your 50k unbuffed midare crit.

The only two baseline skills I see needing an update are Seigan and Ageha.

Ageha primarily because all the execution abilities are boring AF.

Seigan because it's a hoop to jump through while only being slightly stronger than Shinten while occupying the same purpose (OGCD Kenki attack).

Actually, throw in Third Eye there as well.

Third Eye; Seriously should block more damage as a small window single attack damage reduction. 20% isn't unreasonable here.
Seigan: Move into a Reactive Weaponskill around 280 Potency but generates 15 Kenki. One use per Third Eye. Enough to be worthwhile to use but not to the point where the Samurai would want to risk death without having healers who encourage it.
Ageha: Lower Ageha's Cooldown. Remove the Kenki on use, give it a Kenki cost. Increase the potency as Enemy health lowers (Something like 200-500). Killing blows refunds the Kenki twice over.

Only thing I can think of is making Enpi not break combos. Generally I'm pretty satisfied with Samurai as a job I use for casual content.

Agree. Just look at what people are using in the top groups of Bahamut ultimate and you see where SAM/BLM is in the DPS hierarchy. If the DPS are supposed to be balanced, why don't we see more diversity in the pt comp?
Have we been here before? I remember talking about this for MNK back in HW...

Whatever it is, the bottom line is that there needs to be positive changes for SAM. They are not OK where they are now.

If pruning ends up on the table yet again, rather than seeing Third Eye, Seigan, and Merciful Eyes pruned, I'd rather see them made actually significant, perhaps even inviting SAM into a unique half-tank or point-guard set of capabilities, and our weaponskills instead made into dynamic keys, to fit a Nx3 grid.

Base
1. Hakaze
2. Enpi
3. Fuga (no longer requires a target)

Enpi >> <End>

Hakaze
1. Shifu
2. Jinpu
3. Yukikaze

Yukikaze >> <End>

Shifu
1. Kasha
2. Oka
3. Chirasu (Ranged)

Jinpu
1. Gekko
2. Mangestu
3. Muragarasu (Ranged)

Fuga
1. Mangetsu
2. Oka
3. Nadereru (Ranged)

Meikyo Shisui automatically advances you to a temporary form of Gekko, Kasha, and Yukikaze, each of which deal 400 potency and cleave nearby enemies for 200 potency (minus the per-target taper as attached to Mangetsu and Oka) if within melee range of an enemy, or Muragarasu, and Nadareru if out of range.

In this way, 9 weaponskills occupy only 3 slots, while only slightly increasing your degree of freedom (except for the ability to waste a combo to swap to AoE -Fuga- or use Enpi after a mistaken Hakaze; though these functions are now both recoverable in the third stage).