Ivalice: Raid & Reconciliation

This thread is under construction. Please check back at your leisure.

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You (Probably)
Wow, does Ivalice really need another thread?

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...Maybe? We could use one inherently accepting Ivalice as separate from (but a reproduction of) Final Fantasy T[actics|welve] and meant to focus on the entire raid structure in a centralized thread, but, hey, I'm the OP. I'm biased.

Let's get this out of the way, though:

The world of Final Fantasy XIV remains isolated.

Return to Ivalice contains no bridge (cosmological, interdimensional, void...u...lar, or chronological) to the world of Ivalice.

(Or any of the other games, for that matter. Claims to the contrary—pseudocanon funtime crossovers aside—remain unconfirmed fanon in direct contradiction of Yoshida-san's previous comments and established themes with the Crystal Tower, the Warring Triad, Omega, and so on.)

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Originally Posted by Kazutoyo Maehiro (Main Scenario Writer; 2.0, 3.0)

To be absolutely clear, there is no direct connection between FFXIV’s Hydaelyn and FFXII’s Ivalice or even FFXI’s Vana’diel. They are not the same world in different dimensions or time—they are their own separate worlds. However, there are certain connections to people or objects that appear in these other worlds that figure into the story of FFXIV as it has been conceived and is being told.

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Originally Posted by Naoki Yoshida

My stance, personally, has not changed. And so with that being said, if you play through the content of Return to Ivalice and see what the interpretation of it is, within that content, this is something that we discussed in-depth with the creator of Ivalice, Mr. Matsuno, and this is content that won’t end with just one patch. So we’re hoping that players can dive into the content and see how we’ve interpreted Ivalice and sort of brought a new sort of interpretation together.

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@YasumiMatsuno 2017/10/11

誤情報を拡散されると困るので記しておく。
It is troublesome to dispel misinformation, so I will write this down:

「FFTのその後のストーリー」じゃないよ！
It is not a "story that takes place after Final Fantasy Tactics"!

14時間生放送で語ったとおり、FF14というテーマパーク内にイヴァリースをもってきたらというコンセプト！　続編でもなんでもない！
As I said during the 14-Hour Broadcast, our concept is bringing an Ivalice attraction into the theme park we call Final Fantasy XIV. IT'S NOT A SEQUEL!

バーロー！w
Ya dolts! LOL

#FF14 #リターントゥイヴァリース
#FF14 #ReturnToIvalice

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That said: When ever XIV has engaged in a cross-over, it has blamed the other world for its intrusion. Hydaelyn is isolated; Shantotto got here because XI's cosmology allowed it. Hydaelyn is isolated; Lightning got here because Bhunivelze allowed it. At Paris Games Week 2017, Yoshida-san joked that whether any real connection to Ivalice exists and would override this previous tendency is thus entirely in the hands of Matsuno himself.

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Originally Posted by Naoki Yoshida

The answer to that is for Ivalice’s creator, Matsuno-san. He’s kind of like a god to me, so let’s just say “only God knows.”

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RAID SYNOPSIS

BACKGROUND
Unbeknownst to most outside of the Garlean Empire's reach, the late Emperor Solus zos Galvus had a deep appreciation for the arts and gave generously to many theater troupes. So was it that the Majestic Imperial Theater Company—widely regarded as the finest practitioners of the dramatic arts on the Three Great Continents—was sponsored in the construction of a massive theater barge known as the Prima Vista, that they might travel as they would for inspiration and performance.

By contrast, Varis has shown little of the same love for creative license in his brief time on his grandfather's throne. All artistic works must now pass the central imperial board of censors; all works deemed offensive will cause their troupes to lose their writs of transit (or simply vanish altogether). Principal Jenomis cen Lexentale—leader of the Majestic players—sought to circumvent this ultimatum of sacrificing integrity to curry the Emperor's favor or ceasing the arts altogether by embedding anti-policy messages within seemingly-apolitical works.

The Zodiac Brave Story became one such tale. Rooted in a fairy tale known throughout the Empire about a commoner named Delita who would rise and establish the mythical kingdom of Ivalice, the play was by all appearances yet another retelling of a myth so enthralling as inspire borderline worship; to most it would seem the troupe was merely cashing in on an easy payday. Yet Jenomis had slipped subtle messages contrary to Varis's rule past the censors and onto the more learned members of the public. In retaliation, the censors targeted the troupe's patrons rather than publicly admitting incompetence, bleeding their funding to a trickle.

All but driven from the Garlean Empire, however, Jenomis burrowed deeper in his life's greatest passion. Even as far back as his days at the Magitek Academy, the man was obsessed with Ivalician lore and refused to believe it mere myth. Over the years, he had become convinced that the Zodiac Brave Story was but half the tale. He believed that Delita had an ally forgotten by history—his closest friend—with whom he had parted ways due to the death of his sister, Tietra. Hoping to find the truth and pen the lost complement to the Zodiac Brave Story, Jenomis had followed tales of Ivalice to Othard, beyond Nagxia and into the lands of the Kindgom of Dalmasca, which had thrived for untold generations before the Empire's arrival sixty years past.

Jenomis had returned from the Dalmascan deserts with artifacts in the past, including a strange crystal called "auracite" that he claimed would speak to him. It was assumed he meant this figuratively, but during a respite in Hingashi, he was clearly heard conversing with what he believed to be his late wife...and whatever it was had answered. Shortly after that, Jenomis had vanished. His son—Ramza bas Lexentale—believed that his father had returned to excavations beneath Dalmasca's captal, the Royal City of Rabanastre, looking for the lost capital of Ivalice, but a rescue mission into the so-called Desert Sapphire had gone horribly wrong. Returning to Hingashi, he found that his sister Alma, with the help of Jenomis's old academy friend Cid Garlond, had secured the help of a famous adventurer for a second attempt at Jenomis's rescue...

THE ROYAL CITY OF RABANASTRE

INTERMISSION 1

AURACITE & LUCAVI

COMPARISON TO IVALICE PRIME

In layman's terms then, Matsuno basically took various names, concepts and ideas from FFT, FFXII and even FFIX, put them in a blender, set it to SHRED, and then boiled the resulting mixture into a tasty broth that resembled none of it's ingredients. ;)

Okay maybe I'm being hyperbolic here a bit but still, I hope that finally puts to rest the continuing claims "this is a sequel to FFT!" or "Hydaelyn is Ivalice!" despite SE having long said otherwise. Either way, thank you Moose for posting that. :)

Moose-senpai, besides the pretty good write-up, I would advice against calling Return to Ivalice a "reflection" when that term is also being used to refer to Hydaelin's reflections. Just 'cause I learned not to underestimate some people after the "the other FF worlds are actually the other reflections of the Source!" crowd lol

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

Moose-senpai, besides the pretty good write-up, I would advice against calling Return to Ivalice a "reflection"

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You never can be too careful... Reflection → Reproduction

Just a warning, some parts of the OP will take longer to add than others as I re-check translations and drag data / theories / observations I've made back out of Discord chat logs, lol.

meh, I'm not looking forward to this, seeing as how I played FFT and can all but imagine what is going to happen with the "tale".

It's like with Cid, we have some reasonable folk, but they are also essentially divorced from being Garlean entirely.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

meh, I'm not lookong fowarda to this, seeing as how I played FFT and can all but imagine what is going to happen with the "tale".

It's like with Cid, we have some reasonable folk, but they are also essentially divorced from being Garlean entirely.

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You seriously don't see how this has already added nuance to Garlemald as a whole? Their first dictator openly encouraged subversive arts!

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

You seriously don't see how this has already added nuance to Garlemald as a whole? Their first dictator openly encouraged subversive arts!

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He is also openly dead.

I don't really know what to make of it, to be honest. I just don't expect much more from SE on them or any remaining antagonists.

I think the part that stuck with me was that Cid's explanation on the airship was kinda ...not well done? I felt like I was being told to be open minded...after doing something that likely would have me giving pause before being asked "so are going to help"? with of course, no chance to be anything but open minded on the spot.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

He is also openly dead.

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Think about the implications, though - Solus may be dead, but under his lengthy tenure as Emperor, he actively cultivated a sense of critical thinking, relative freedom of thought, and appreciation for the arts in his Empire's home population. That population didn't die with him, which means that the existence of Garleans loyal to (a certain ideal of) the Empire but also open-minded, sympathetic, and capable of meeting in the middle is practically a certainty. Isn't this exactly the sort of thing you and the other Garlean sympathizers wanted - nuance to Garlemald, for them and their population to more than just a generic Evil Empire?

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

Think about the implications, though - Solus may be dead, but under his lengthy tenure as Emperor, he actively cultivated a sense of critical thinking, relative freedom of thought, and appreciation for the arts in his Empire's home population. That population didn't die with him, which means that the existence of Garleans loyal to (a certain ideal of) the Empire but also open-minded, sympathetic, and capable of meeting in the middle is practically a certainty. Isn't this exactly the sort of thing you and the other Garlean sympathizers wanted - nuance to Garlemald, for them and their population to more than just a generic Evil Empire?

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fair point, I do want that.

Don't know if this is the right thread, but after the final boss fight, the reporter (can't recall name) says the boss wasn't speaking... something, but was perhaps speaking High Ivalice. And then Ramza states "You can understand him? Ah, the Echo!" So... is that the first confirmation that she has the Echo? And that Ramza does not?

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Originally Posted by Grayve

Don't know if this is the right thread

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If it relates to Return to Ivalice in terms of interpreting it as accurately as possible and comparing it to its origins to see what's the same and what's changed, this is a good place for it.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

[A]fter the final boss fight, the reporter (can't recall name) says the boss wasn't speaking... something, but was perhaps speaking High Ivalice. And then Ramza states "You can understand him? Ah, the Echo!" So... is that the first confirmation that she has the Echo? And that Ramza does not?

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I'm about to go back in to recapture the boss text and will pay closer attention, bit I assume that both are talking to the (silent) Warrior of Light, like the reporter asked "Was that High Ivalician?" and the WOL was like, "Iunno, I just heard him yelling about the Beoulves and for Ramza to save him." and then Ramza chimed in about "You understood!?"

That makes more sense.

A great write up --- as always for an Anony post. The one thing I am curious about is where exactly Rabanastre sits on the world map.

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Originally Posted by Zephanoa

A great write up --- as always for an Anony post.

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Thank you for the kind words! Though there's still a lot more to go; I got distracted by Halloween and game review obligations, lol.

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Originally Posted by Zephanoa

The one thing I am curious about is where exactly Rabanastre sits on the world map.

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You and the rest of us, tbh. Try to reconcile all this. (Keep in mind: Rabanastre is the capital of the Kingdom of Dalmasca.)

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Return to Ivalice
The Dalmasca Desert is a vast wasteland situated in the southern reaches of central Othard, sharing an eastern border with Nagxia.

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Return to Ivalice
...thirty years ago, Dalmasca was invaded by the Garlean Empire...

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Encyclopedia Eorzea
1517 The Republic first employs airships in its military conquests, easily conquering the small nation of Dalmasca in a display of terrifying power. Over the coming years, the Garleans seize control over the majority of the northern territories.

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Encyclopedia EorzeaIn 1517, he was granted control of Garlemald as dictator by overwhelming popular support. The same year, the republic attacked Dalmasca, a small country nestled in the central mountains, and rained down fire upon it with their new airships. Thus, the Garlean army turned to conquer the south of llsabard.

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White Devil
This masterpiece of Imperial ingenuity is the selfsame suit of warmachina operated by XIVth Legion tribunus Livia sas Junius in the Garlean Empire's invasion and subjugation of Ilsabard's northern reaches.

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And don't forget Drest was from there, but thankfully, I don't think he was very specific about when his homeland fell.

Doesn't it look like Dalmasca is simultaneously a kingdom in northern Ilsabard that was conquered 60 years ago and a city in southern Othard that was conquered 30 years ago? And Livia's only 26, so she couldn't have been at either. (She could, however, have put down a rebellion in Dalmasca (where ever the hell it is) not long ago, earning her the nickname, "The Witch of Dalmasca").

But focus on geography for a minute.

To have Dalmasca acting as a massive desert and situated near Nagxian territory, you'd probably want it in the 30-degree belt with Thanalan rather than in the rain shadow of the mountain range. Most likely, that puts Dalmasca here-ish. Probably. Ish. (That explains the focus on airships.)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...4/Dalmasca.png

That's a decent place for it, I think. You can call that the "central mountains" between Ilsabard and Othard, right along the land-bridge created by that mountain range, but still technically Othard proper. I would imagine there's actually a second mountain range in Ilsabard under that cloud cover (or at least, an extension of the one we can see that bends more west than north). This would explain the seeming discrepancies in phrasing, why the Near East is a separate region, why Garlemald would take Dalmasca before moving on souther Ilsabard, and more.

Alright, let's go back to the year.

The lore book timeline:

1515 - Garlemald (the republic city-state) begins forcefully conquering neighbors
1517 - Dalmasca is conquered with airships, Solus Galvus is appointed Dictator by popular support.
1522 - Ilsabard's northlands are conquered and forged into an Empire, Solus rises from dictator to Emperor Solus zos Galvus
1528 - The Garlean Empire first moves on Othard
1551 - Livia is born
1552 - Doma falls
1553 - The Garlean Empire turns to Aldenard

Return to Ivalice says Dalmasca fell around 1547, which fits nicely into the Othardian campaign (1528 to 1552) but doesn't jive with any of the rest of the backstory. Without sweeping retcons, it might be best to assume that Garlemald invaded the Othardian mountain pass in 1517, during their solidification of the northlands (1515-1522). Using the mountain range as a defensive border, they would have followed it south to Dalmasca, where a natural bottleneck was created between the central and eastern continents, as they would later do with Ala Mhigo. This would explain why airships played such a crucial role.

Why go this far from the northlands? Because they were preparing to move southwards. Taking the mountain pass would prevent any aid or interference from the eastern continent while Garlemald hit southern Ilsabard and the Near East from two fronts. Little aid was coming from Eorzea; even if they were concerned about a growing empire that might one day threaten their borders, the city-states were continually at each others throats and the Ala Mhigan era between the loss of the Autumn War and the rule of Theodoric wasn't exactly stable.

Perhaps a good reconciliation is to assume that Garlemald occupied the Dalmascan westersand and capital in 1517, but (as they did in Doma) shifted the power structure down a step and left the B'nargins as paper tigers until they abolished the throne forsooth 30 years ago during the actual campaign for the eastern continent.

And then some rebellion popped up later for Livia to throw down.

It would take a bit of dev. polish and specificity to bring the Encyclopædia Eorzea, White Devil, Drest, and Return to Ivalice into harmony, but I think the above is a good guess for the time being.

What really bothers me with the whole "This is not an Ivalice sequel!" are actually the Ascians.

Not only are they named after the Scions of Light, but their sigils are the same as their Dark counterparts, but reversed.

Lahabrea's: https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net...20130911062749

Mateus': https://orig00.deviantart.net/391e/f...y_mrespman.jpg

Then we add the fact that there's a disaster that separates FFXII's Ivalice from FFT's whose details were never given. But now the raid mentions a "flood", suggesting it is the aftermath of the War of Magi. Then there's the "Far East" mentioned on both Ivalices - which could easily be Othard.

The only thing that's really not blending is the magics, given that Ivalice has Summon, Black and White Magic.

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Originally Posted by Alastair_Helyous

What really bothers me with the whole "This is not an Ivalice sequel!" are actually the Ascians.

Not only are they named after the Scions of Light, but their sigils are the same as their Dark counterparts, but reversed.

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All Final Fantasy games borrow designs, concepts, and assets from previous Final Fantasy games, while giving those things entirely new identity and purpose in the newer game. FFXIV is no different, except in that it does so far more liberally than any other game in the series. It doesn't change the fact that when you see something in FFXIV that resembles something from the previous games, you can make no safe assumptions about it.

The Ascians' sigils may be borrowed from a previous game, but that does not indicate any kind of relationship with that previous game.

The Summons from FFT could just be a gameplay element since they're not referred to or used in the story of FFT. Same with Dragoons (which technically shouldn't exist till Ishgard).