I miss the old PvP.

I know no one cares.... but IMHO the old one was so much more fun...

try to imagine if current pvp was like old one so with all the pve skills and the new lv 70s

old was ok and i loved it. Now we have a plethora of new ppl thinking they are good b/c they reached diamond but they dont know s5 diamond is equal to silver/bronze rank and nonames that throw games b/c they are just bad at pushing 1-2-3

Couldn't agree more. So many tactical abilities removed because remembering keybinds is hard or something. I sure love not being able to strategically decide when to go Di Sect or when to go Noct Sect, and spamming Bene and Bene II over and over again while DRKs whale on me and I have no self-peel anymore. A+ healing design, so glad I quit when 4.0 came out.

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Originally Posted by Headhunters

old was ok and i loved it. Now we have a plethora of new ppl thinking they are good b/c they reached diamond but they dont know s5 diamond is equal to silver/bronze rank and nonames that throw games b/c they are just bad at pushing 1-2-3

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We will remember the Times when PvP was actually challenging. Every Top 100 player after Season 4 is just no Top 100 player to me.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

We will remember the Times when PvP was actually challenging. Every Top 100 player after Season 4 is just no Top 100 player to me.

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True words have been said.

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Originally Posted by Mirch

try to imagine if current pvp was like old one so with all the pve skills and the new lv 70s

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I did and it would have been glorious, just thinking WAR with its old sweet kit while adding a onslaught, upheaval, revamped shake it off and IR on top of that made me jizz. Best balance for pvp is when all jobs are unbalanced, otherwise it becomes dull and gutted just like we have now.

I wish they would revert frontline to the 3.x system and keep this 9 button garbage on the new modes coming out. I'd even be fine if that meant that there would never be any balance updates to legacy modes.

There's more competition on this game, it's just become anything to help the noobs, this pvp is just crap.
The talent of the big players has been destroyed so that the noobs can do something ...
Instead of going to cry it's too hard learn to play instead of destroying the pvp.

I cry every night and hug my pillow for missing old PVP... Current PVP is just dull and tasteless U.U

i thought healing was more fun with the whm pve tool set and pvp skills, in hw and arr

I miss old PvP

Perhaps we should be offering suggestions on how to improve PvP rather than sitting here "Back in my daying" PvP?

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Originally Posted by Yukina_Chan

There's more competition on this game, it's just become anything to help the noobs, this pvp is just crap.
The talent of the big players has been destroyed so that the noobs can do something ...
Instead of going to cry it's too hard learn to play instead of destroying the pvp.

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You speak from my heart.

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Originally Posted by Krolja

Perhaps we should be offering suggestions on how to improve PvP rather than sitting here "Back in my daying" PvP?

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Okay! Bring the old PvP back and just delete the new one. There will be no "improvements" wich will make it feel as thrilling as it once did. (thrilling with a bit of skill that is)

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Originally Posted by Krolja

Perhaps we should be offering suggestions on how to improve PvP rather than sitting here "Back in my daying" PvP?

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Remove the 1 button combo crap. Really? You can't remember to push 2 after 1 and 3 after 2?. Enable all PVE skills with their standard PVE detriments & enhancements. Make stun, sleep, bind and silence resists work just like PVE. Make PVP rank meaningful by providing action points to spend on PVP skills & traits. Keep the armor & weapon system as is so you don't have to have an optimal PVP build and an optimal PVE build. Keep some of the PVP buffs to actions like onslaught stun, holy spirit silence, unmend draw in. Balance damage by modifying the potency of skills & spells in PVP areas. Balance healing by modifying the potency of spells in PVP areas. If they wanted 100% balanced PVP, then there should only be 4 "Jobs" in pvp. Tank, Healer, Mele DPS and Ranged DPS. All tanks would have the same skills, all healers would have the same skills, all Mele same skill and all Ranged same skills. But that would be even more boring. Actually, I just want warrior's vengeance back - stop hitting yourself! stop hitting yourself! stop hitting yourself!

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Originally Posted by Krolja

Perhaps we should be offering suggestions on how to improve PvP rather than sitting here "Back in my daying" PvP?

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Go read "The New Chat Restriction in the Feast" and see where the first rep response is, and what it is.
Go read the feedback threads between Stormblood's start and 4.06a when the PvP balance changes actually happened for season 5. Then look at what changes were actually made.
Read all the feedback people have given about Shatter, then look at the Rival Wings description. . .

We have a very bad history with us and SE listening to our feedback, let alone following through with it.

"Simple" solution, really.

Git gut at coding and modeling, then set up your own indie game with a copy&paste gameplay of the old PvP and a unique coat of paint to prevent copyright issues, then have it approved via Steam Direct (or just release it for free on the net). You can add a cash shop later if it actually has success.

Alternately, run risk of being sued by running a private server with the old build like Nostalrius did with Classic WoW (Which actually had like 800k accounts by the end of it).

I mean, feel free to just keep complaining anyway, but it won't avail you anything. It's nothing but a circlejerk coming together to yell at trees.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

"Simple" solution, really.

Git gut at coding and modeling, then set up your own indie game with a copy&paste gameplay of the old PvP and a unique coat of paint to prevent copyright issues, then have it approved via Steam Direct (or just release it for free on the net). You can add a cash shop later if it actually has success.

Alternately, run risk of being sued by running a private server with the old build like Nostalrius did with Classic WoW (Which actually had like 800k accounts by the end of it).

I mean, feel free to just keep complaining anyway, but it won't avail you anything. It's nothing but a circlejerk coming together to yell at trees.

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How is this any different?

If nothing else, what body of the "old" PvP community that can use the forums is (once again) providing feedback. Were they to stay silent (and unfortunately too many have opted for silence, given how feedback has been handled previously), that could give the impression that things are fine and "everyone" loves the new PvP. They don't. Those who loved it before - as "bad" as it apparently was - are none too pleased with this. Those who otherwise avoided it before, now simply use it as a means to an end, and once those ends are met, are just as likely to drop it. With the old community alienated, and the "new" community pulling a hit and run, how successful could SE really say their PvP is at that point?

And believe me, were I interested in coding and modeling, that'd be a challenge worth taking on. However, mocking people for voicing how they feel about a very controversial change to an aspect of a game they love is hardly helpful, and really just speaks poorly of you. I would think having been around just as long, you might have more to offer than just that.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

However, mocking people for voicing how they feel about a very controversial change to an aspect of a game they love is hardly helpful, and really just speaks poorly of you.

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Oh, I merely offered actual solutions to the issue that can in fact realistically achieve results, because complaining is none, especially not when the only thing you have to say on how to improve the situation is:"Bring the old PvP back and just delete the new one."

As I said, you can miss the old PvP and complain about it all you like. I'm not going to stop you, even if I wanted to I can't, the most I can do is put people on a personal blacklist. It just isn't going to make a difference. It's not like some reasonable request of:"Can we get 1 or 2 more skills in the kit?" or "Could we reduce the emphasis of objectives in future game modes?" or "Please reposition the south base of shatter a little for parity sake." or "Can we get a Frontline rotation?" or even "I'd like to have stats back in PvP". It's literally saying:"I don't like it, it's shit, revert it all!". That isn't debatable, that isn't reasonable, that's just a pissed guy searching confirmation on an internet forum.

Duh. If you feel it's "mocking" people to tell them the obvious fact that this isn't gonna achieve anything and they'll need to find solutions elswhere, so be it.

And if it's just about my phrasing, I'm afraid what people are doing here, especially with posts having no content other than:"YEAH, you're right! True words!" etc, fits the definition of it. I can put it more complicatedly next time so people don't understand it, but it remains what it is.

A lot of what you said has, in fact, been suggested. We're all aware however of SE's general trend when it comes to suggestions and feedback, so the bigger concern isn't "what can we do to fix it", it's "how can we actually get through to them?" Especially when this is the main method they themselves recommend for suggestions and feedback.

It's a community issue, and one not easily answered of course (even with a snarky "well do it yourselves then!" answer). We're in the very bad position of SE wanting a wider appeal, the "old" community wanting back what they had that was good, and the "new" community being largely unconcerned or uninterested besides. Worse than that, those who could offer some of the best feedback have grown bitter and cynical, and/or aren't even able to post here anymore, thus that's a voice more than "yeah you're right!" going yet further unheard. I myself have moments where I think "Why do I even bother?" so I won't try to paint a picture of being some kind of community savior at all here.

It takes no time to look around and see that legit attempts have been made to reach out to devs and reps, and with very sparse success, if any. What it takes to really change that, I have yet to figure out. But I know this: even if it's little more than "back in my day" PvP salt, or a circlejerk to yell at trees, saying something is better than nothing. SE needs to understand their attempt to appeal to a larger audience at the expense of the dedicated community was a bad move, despite whatever numbers/data they have on their side. Again, that's a community issue and not my own to spearhead, but nitpicking and mocking ourselves is the last thing we need.

The old PVP system was amazing, because you actually needed skill to play and knowledge of your class. It actually separated the good players from the bad players. I miss the old days when I would spawn camp enemy base as a ninja. These days PVP is not as fun. Do you guys remember 72-man Seal Rock in the good old days? It was so much fun. Glad I spammed PVP before Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

A lot of what you said has, in fact, been suggested.

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I'm aware, that's the reason why I used some of them as examples for reasonable dialogue. It's something you can talk about. And since we're in a thread about "the ole days", it would be a very productive thing to pinpoint what exactly people miss from those days. The ability to burst people on their own? Did they simply prefer the large arsenal of skills at their disposal? Was the way CC was handled back then more fun? Did they prefer the job pacing? Did people simply prefer going 1-2-3 over 1-1-1? What are the key points for skill development you'd like to have back? The job complexity of PvE? The prevalence of OGCD weaving? Using your buffs before bursting? Monitoring the entire screen for buffs, debuffs, CDs, CC opportunities etc?

I know I'm missing the fact that I can't gib unsuspecting people as MCH anymore and require considerably more coordination from my teammates to kill stuff and I miss having sprint as baseline. Seal Rock bases are also iffy to defend in 72 man with no spammable AoE abilities. If they are going to run with the MOBA approach, I'd also prefer to have my abilities be powerful and have vector-based aiming, because the current ones largely feel weak and it gives just hitting abilities a dimension of skill which the game currently supposedly lacks. That's my opinion that 'that' topic.

There are only a handful of replies in this thread that go into that direction, though, and that is my critique and something I hope will change going forward. It is a very valuable discussion to have what the old PvP does better or worse and what the new PvP does better or worse and whether and how it might be possible to transfer the advantages of the old to the new. That's good, that's productive and it's something the community reps can translate and hand over to the dev team (Whether the dev team accepts or acts on that feedback is a different topic altogether. We had that discussion a while ago). And since the rest is offtopic, I'll put it in spoilers.

As for whether their attempt to appeal to a broader audience was a good move or not, I frankly find it hard to say. What I am going to say is that "if" in fact more people enjoy (Note: Not "play") the new than the old, it was a good change - in more than one way, because as Geryth said in the other thread, the bigger the community, the more likely they'll give it attention (And to add a cynical remark: The easier to monetize, the more likely to get attention as well, which will have played a part in the minion decision). If the numbers are the same, it's a pointless change and if the numbers are reverse, it was a bad change. Them constantly throwing rewards into the mix makes it impossible to single down the effect of other changes and that's the trap Yoshida walked into with his "More people are playing due to chat restriction" remark and that other people are also eager to walk into. You can only say:"More people are playing, these were the changes and I think that..."

But while we are at the topic of community: Only a fraction of it bothers with posting on the forum and neither team tryhard nor the frontline discord are an accurate representation of it. The vast majority of it will be silent and simply decide to play or not play. And these people matter as much as the vocal community on the forums. And disclaimer: I have no idea how that community looks or what it wants, it might share the opinions of the forum/discord/reddit community, it might not. I just want to put up a giant reminder that every view of the community, yours, mine and everyone else's, will be biased.
That's relevant when you think about whether shatter/objective based PvP is popular or not. It's in that other thread, hence it's in off-topic spoilers here, but it might well be that Shatter is in fact popular by its gameplay, even if it's hated by everyone in your social circle. And yes, there are also other factors that contribute - rewards, queue times, etc, - but it's important not to preclude something over your social circle. And with that, /endrant

Fine, in the interests of "actual" criticism, I will say that I find the current 9-button PVP to be extremely low-skill and failproof, and to me, that goes against what PVP is. To continue with the MOBA comparisons, imagine playing a game like HotS or LoL where all your shit is just point-n-clicks and you are guaranteed to land them every time you use them. Then a match just becomes an assjam of mashing your buttons as fast as humanly possible with a minor element of coordination revolved around making sure you're all hitting the same target for maximum impact. That's XIV PVP right now - you dogpile against someone vs their healers dogpiling them with heals and hope that your damage is greater than their healing to win. Obviously, I don't expect them to turn XIV PVP moves into skillshots, because that's MOBA PVP and not MMO PVP, but in other games the surety of a "point and click automatically registers as a hit" dynamic is offset by having to make meaningful choices about WHAT is hitting the enemy player at WHAT time. Whether this is burst moves, CC, a long healing cooldown, whatever, the impact of choice has virtually been removed from us and all that's left is "who has less latency or can hit their buttons faster in a 1v1". There's not a lot of meaningful CC, healers no longer have the choice of using smaller AOE heals to heal up or bigger single target heals depending on the situation, tanks don't have mitigation CDs anymore, and DPS can no longer use a move with higher individual potency outside of a combo in order to finish off a low HP but mobile/fleeing target. You're using x combo or y combo or "heal I" or "heal II", with the odd utility CD thrown in. This works in MOBAs where stuff can miss, making your character basically a walking fleshbag for the next few seconds until their crap comes off CD. It doesn't work in MMOs where just being in range is enough to guarantee your abilities will have an impact.

I have literally stopped playing FF14 simply because of the pvp change. It killed the whole game for me, now I only log in to keep my chocobo-themed house. Same with my pvp FC. We have all moved on to other things. When I played Astro with old pvp, I felt like all my weaving of abilities was like a playing a beautiful piece of music. Now I feel like I am loudly bashing 3-4 keys over and over.
I got into the top 10 in the feast for a while back in old pvp, until I ran into speed hackers and ragequit ranked :P I would rather have 10 times more speed hackers and old pvp, than no speed hackers and the new pvp.

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Originally Posted by Llus

Remove the 1 button combo crap. Really? You can't remember to push 2 after 1 and 3 after 2?. Enable all PVE skills with their standard PVE detriments & enhancements. Make stun, sleep, bind and silence resists work just like PVE

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I agree with everything you mentioned. I hate the 1 button combo crap, and I hate the idea of it bleeding into PvE. The jobs skillsets are terrible. You speak nothing but truth, so we either suck it up and live with what we got or at least continue to voice our disgust on what they've done to it in the hopes that they listen to us for once. 4.06a showed that they really don't, but we can still protest.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Go read "The New Chat Restriction in the Feast" and see where the first rep response is, and what it is.
Go read the feedback threads between Stormblood's start and 4.06a when the PvP balance changes actually happened for season 5. Then look at what changes were actually made.
Read all the feedback people have given about Shatter, then look at the Rival Wings description. . .

We have a very bad history with us and SE listening to our feedback, let alone following through with it.

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I know they don't listen to us or the chat restriction would be dead and buried, but what else can we do? The housing babies caused an uproar to get them to take notice, so I guess I was trying to suggest we try our own? I dunno. I check these forums in hopes we get some news, but I mostly leave disheartened, frustrated, and sad.

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Originally Posted by Krolja

Perhaps we should be offering suggestions on how to improve PvP rather than sitting here "Back in my daying" PvP?

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My suggestion would be that add all current PvE skills back to PvP and alter them just like current pvp skills are done at the moment, that way we can keep this separated PvE/PvP thingy while still having a access to greater pool of abilities. This was what i taught they would do in SB and they did do it but i was never expecting to see so heavy skill prune, having a comboes in one button already solved the button bloat issue HW had so why do the prune on top of that?

I liked the old pvp. I like the new pvp.

Ye, the old mode showed how good ppl can handle their job and now? Just a 111 222 4 3 6 gameplay and some ppl are still unbelievable bad...

Personally, I think 9 buttons as a standard is too restricting. Some jobs need more than that, and some don't. I don't think it'd be so bad to have a little variation between the jobs in that regard.

And cc skills really are essential for melees. Like, NIN shouldn't be the only one with them. That doesn't mean take away what NIN has, but bring MNK and DRG up to par with NIN's cc abilities. At LEAST give them back their stuns.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I have literally stopped playing FF14 simply because of the pvp change. It killed the whole game for me, now I only log in to keep my chocobo-themed house. Same with my pvp FC. We have all moved on to other things. When I played Astro with old pvp, I felt like all my weaving of abilities was like a playing a beautiful piece of music. Now I feel like I am loudly bashing 3-4 keys over and over.
I got into the top 10 in the feast for a while back in old pvp, until I ran into speed hackers and ragequit ranked :P I would rather have 10 times more speed hackers and old pvp, than no speed hackers and the new pvp.

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Or Taking Away the enemy node By sneaking and LB'ing the Guarding Healer before you killed theyr also guarding Dragoon while the Rest of theyr Team is buisy fighting the team with the lowest points :D

Or assassinating someone on his Mount while he desperatly tries to run away. God i Miss those Times... i could cry

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Personally, I think 9 buttons as a standard is too restricting. Some jobs need more than that, and some don't. I don't think it'd be so bad to have a little variation between the jobs in that regard.

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While i highly agree i doubt we will see more abilities making comeback as SE tries to balance pvp around 4v4 Feast and to make that work most jobs needs to be carbon copies of each other, PLD stun is good example as it got nerfed down to 2s so it matches the other two tanks. This is the reason why i have always disliked Arenas in MMO's as it always ruins the fun when things gets balanced around that, i would rather have unbalanced jobs with interesting skill synergy than army of clones tbh.

As it stands, there's quite a world of difference between the DPS jobs (as there should be), but in all the wrong ways.

I dunno, I just feel like whoever's handling PvP this time around - if different - needs to hand it back to the team that did it before. They weren't perfect, but they were a hell of a lot better.

I also miss the pre-change pvp.
I liked the idea of the pvp gear and the skills the way they were.
I might be the only one .

Sigh.....

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Originally Posted by Nightroad

I also miss the pre-change pvp.
I liked the idea of the pvp gear and the skills the way they were.
I might be the only one .

Sigh.....

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You're not the only one. I miss how rank worked too to buff the skills.

Secretly, I'm really hoping SE is seeing this, and gives PvP the "4.0 BRD" treatment.

Namely, rolling back controversial and poorly received changes and restoring what was good, while making things even better.

Keep consolidated skills, restore full kits (adjusted for PvP), restore rank progression-based PvP skill upgrades. Keep the gear/stat removal (since level 30s can start PvPing, and they even want level 1s to have access), restore the balanced CCs on all jobs and cooldowns/DRs of 3.5 PvP, and by then I hope we have map rotation.

Do that, and PvP can become great again.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Keep consolidated skills

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Just so I am interpreting you correctly you mean the 1 button for a skill chain correct? Fast blade, savage blade, rage of halone for example or the Heavy Shot, Slug Shot, Clean Shot for MCH.

If so I agree with everything you said.

I agree with what everyone has said, I preferred the 3.X PvP systems to the 4.X ones, particularly due to a lot of tactical/support abilities being dropped in favour of more simplistic generic DPS abilities when Stormblood hot. I’d love if they took a look at the PvP system as a whole

This change is too huge, and SE has spent too much resources on it to even make them consider rolling it back. It is not going to happen.

Perhaps in the next mmo FF they'll get it right?

They did some good changes though. Like making PvP a lot more accessible. I have no idea why they hid it behind endgame for so long (lvl 30 WD what happened?). And they think the chat restrictions helped bring people in? lol no sorry, I don't want to sound rude, but even I can see that is not even a small part of it (a tiny, tiny one perhaps).