Yep, i'm still here.. still trying to get that f.king mount.
Just done a 8vs8vs8 match, there were 5 bots out of 8 players. We almost win anyway.. but.. as they say in Italy:
* "Quasi" conta solo a bocce *
..so just reminding that the problem still exist.
Another frontline
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10-13-2017, 06:09 PMGartenAnother frontline
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10-13-2017, 11:08 PMKyarra
All they have to do is to log into PVP frontlines around 5-6 a.m. est each day and they will be able to ban most of the bots in pvp. I never play at that time cause this happens to me every time.
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10-14-2017, 04:23 AMGarten
I mean.. i joined team tryhard discord, and frontline discord.. and ppls are just talking about whatever shit.. why join that to chat about random stuff? I ask around the day if someone want to join a match and nobody answer.. T_T
I hope at least this is because of the new patch.. -
10-14-2017, 06:54 AMsaucyshortcake
There is a post at the top of the forum here saying where to lodge pvp complaints. I've decided to reporting every single bot I've come across since it was posted.
It's gonna be a lot to read. -
10-14-2017, 08:58 AMMirch
Its 4.1 dont worry adter some time the pvpers will eventually come back. Dont forget that most pvpers do pve too
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10-18-2017, 01:16 AMGarten
Dunno what else to do to win with this flawled system. I'm just queueing as a freelancer and keep trown in adders/flames and keep losing.
Even if i suck ball hard it's just against every statistic that i can't win in 10-15 times. This time i'm done for good.. so i just wanted to share this avesome gif (i hope you could see it)
https://m.popkey.co/2b87b6/qdoE0.gif -
10-18-2017, 01:31 AMThirdChild_ZKI
Let me first say that the GC you're placed on is hardly reason for winning or losing. Before anyone brings up bots, bots can be on any team at any time, and we all know this.
The biggest difference is made when you fully understand the game mode, and know what to do. I've made 2 different posts here that give some basic to intermediate guidelines on how to play Frontlines matches (some of it is Shatter specific, but most of the info is usable for any FL mode). Check them out when you can.
If you want to win, first push yourself to learn more; don't be afraid of losing or making mistakes, it's part of the process. Once you understand that, don't be afraid to pass it to others, or lead by example. Do that, and you'll see a difference. -
10-18-2017, 09:30 AMNewmanxeno
Transfer to the Primal data center for a couple weeks. Maelstrom almost never loses.
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10-18-2017, 07:35 PMThirdChild_ZKIFixed that for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Newmanxeno
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10-18-2017, 09:08 PMSynestra
At the moment its really hard for me to see difference between bot and legit player, sometimes i see legit player acting like a bot and sometimes bot seems to be better than legit player. Not sure if i should cry or laugh or do both at the same time.
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10-21-2017, 08:01 AMenthauptetThere may be some truth to what they say, every single player sorted by win rate is maelstrom in the top 100 on primal: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...hly/?sort=rateQuote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
(I looked again, there was 1 adder, so 99% maelstrom lol) -
10-21-2017, 08:24 AMGeryth
When I freelanced, before I was carrying games, I was winning on Flames 25% of the time, and winning while on Adders or Mael 75% of the time, and getting on Flames 75% of the time. Meaning I was losing a lot, and on Flames a lot.
I was in adders and queued only adders instead of freelanced when I learned how to turn off freelance status. I then was winning 35-40% of the time. I made alliance call-out macros, learned the maps, started using MCH, and on adders my win rate went up to 45-50% so I demonstrated a solid jump in win rate by playing better - a single player can make a big difference. Had a bad week where maels were still winning most of the time and switched my GC to Maelstrom.
My win rate is now 60-70%. A couple nights ago over 14 games I had an 86% win rate.
So while a single player can have an effect and carry games and pull your own personal win rate up, I strongly believe the GC you're on has a huge impact on win rate. Maelstrom has been dominating the win rates for the past couple months.
I mean, I have continued to improve and swapped to BLM in my push for The Hand of Mercy, but I don't think I'm carrying every game hard enough to go back to freelancing on flames and retain a 70% win rate. -
10-21-2017, 08:45 AMWintersandman
I run with a 6-8 man group on Primal and we always get stuck on Flames or Adders. One team that knows what they are doing can change an entire match. I generally run a 33%+ win rate on Primal.
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10-21-2017, 12:01 PMNewmanxenoWouldn’t say they are skilled. Just not bots probably, I imagine those things have freelancer on for faster queues.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
Do you guys play late? That’s the only time I see Badders or Flames seem awake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
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10-21-2017, 02:18 PMThirdChild_ZKIThis. Players that know what they're doing aren't going to play worse just because they're not on the "winningest" GC. This is why I say skill and coordination matter so much more than what color team you're on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
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10-21-2017, 05:05 PMGarten
3 days ago i made a premade of 6-8 ppls, we won 5 match in a row (we were trowhn in adders and flames, never in mael), so i can say that is true that a good team can carry a match..
The problem is, in my humble opinion and experience, that psicological attitude of people count maybe more than their skills LOL ..
A lot of time when the match starts and someone try to give an early advice, many players reply saying stuff like "if you want to win go mael.. " and stuff like that..
Me too i have to be honest, when i play alone i'm not motivated anymore after LOSING like 10 matches in a row to Mael. It's just impossible to stay calm and try to win anymore.
ALSO, as someone explained in the past better than me, "i think" that is as the trend goes: people who play to win or are better skilled tend to go to the faction that is winning more in a specific periof AND DON'T GO FREELANCE. In exchange people who doesn't care win or go to pvp only for exp (and bots) go FREELANCE and went trown in the others two faction becoming cannon fodder. And that goes on and on.
I think that is just true.. don't know what proof i can tell. Want me to do 100 match in mael (with an alt) and 100 matches in adders and show the results?? (then you'll have to trust my honesty.. but i'll do if you want xD) -
10-22-2017, 01:30 AMThirdChild_ZKI
Freelancer is not an issue at all.
Frontline Freelancer is the GC restriction removal we begged for for 3 years because it sucked being in a different GC from your friends all the time, and it was even worse when queues could take up to 2 hours (and no, I'm not exaggerating) because there's 40 Maelstrom players in queue, 28 Adders, but only 4 Flames. Sure, that's 72, but to the matching algorithm, that's not 24/24/24. Freelancer fixed this issue, as we knew it would, and that's ALL it does.
That said, people who are skilled can play on any team and do well. I've said this. They still need a team of skilled teammates, or even just good support/coordination, but whether they freelance or not means nothing. Whether they're in Maelstrom or not means nothing. People don't lose because they AREN'T in X GC.
People lose because they want to rely solely on the ice to win.
People lose because they don't actively try to fight other players or take advantage of other means to score.
People lose because they don't get off their mounts when near enemies, or try to get on them near enemies.
People lose because they don't help each other, or support their team in the right ways.
People lose because they think if they miss one large ice, it's impossible to come back.
People lose because they'll drop everything and turn their backs on an attacking enemy just to rush to the ice.
People lose because they won't even defend themselves or each other at the ice.
People lose because they keep jumping off cliffs to hurry to the ice, despite there being a safe way down and inside each area.
People lose because they think sitting on the base alone in the name of "guarding" it actually does anything helpful. (PROTIP: It doesn't. You're just 5 extra points along with the stolen base when a group rolls in.)
People lose because they think the problem lies with bots, GC affiliations, and premades, and fail to see all the things they're doing wrong, even in the absence of bots/premades.
The problem isn't what team you're on, it's everything people do wrong/don't do right, and worst of all, don't even know they're doing/not doing. Let this talk of "People who want to win go to X GC/don't go Freelancer!" be laid to rest here and now. Freelancer isn't the issue at all, and being skilled isn't an exclusive trait to Maelstrom or any other GC. -
10-22-2017, 07:34 AMGerythThis is such a black and white way to view things, and you're really ignoring facts and the gray area that exists. I mean I totally understand the spirit of what you're saying - playing the game well is what wins, not the GC you play for. That's just a long and friendly way of saying "git gud", and it's advice the OP needs to hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
But let's not ignore what's really happening here. Players that have a solid understanding of the game generally move to Maelstrom and they turn off freelance status, and they win most of the games. That's exactly what I did, and I enjoyed a fast track ride to The Knight of Glory title I attained just last night. But it's a cycle - eventually others will want to follow suit, because they want to get carried for easy wins, and they bring the team down. More GC swapping occurs and some other GC will be the head honcho for a while, and the cycle moves forward.
In a perfect world everyone queues freelance and we all share a 33% chance to win, and if you bring skill and carry potential you'll enjoy a bit better than that. But I know you know that's not the way it goes down. I'm sure you saw my thread last month:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...something-else
I put two and two together, changed GC, turned off freelance, and wins started rolling in. I know I'm a skilled player and I carried a lot of those wins, but I can't deny that queuing for a different GC was a major factor in my win rate. And it's for all the reasons you put forth. And the players who understand what you wrote - for now - generally* congregate on Maelstrom.
*Generally is fluid and it determines what time you queue and what time premade freelance groups queue (my only loss streaks happen when 6-8 man premades freelance into Adders or Flames for a string of matches), and what state GC swapping is in. For all I know we're about to transition - Adders have been playing solid lately. -
10-22-2017, 08:16 AMZojhaCase in point... one of my alts, which I leveled largely via PvP:Quote:
Originally Posted by Geryth
About 70% of those games were done post Stormblood with freelancer turned off, my winrate increased by almost 10% total over those games. And I'm not even making call-outs when I play, I just simply try to do what makes sense, get fever and not die, maybe throw a pun or two into chat.
I would be curious on statistics on how common freelancer usage even is at this point. I very often get the same faces on my team when I queue and I doubt that's mere coincidence. Either way, I find it hard to deny that GCs impact your winrate. How they impact your winrate is situationally dependent. I rode the winrate train on Flames some other time on some other alt:
Who knows where it'll next jump to? -
10-22-2017, 08:33 AMThirdChild_ZKI
Players that have a solid understanding of the game, ideally, are going to form parties together, where it STILL won't matter what GC they're on.
What you said, Geryth, is exactly what used to happen, and what used to impact queues the most. Everyone wanted to be on the "winning" GC, and numbers became imbalanced for queues. People began to drag down that winning GC and the skilled players would switch, and the cycle just repeats from there.
The bigger issue I've been trying to point out is too many people are convinced they HAVE to turn off Freelancer and HAVE to be in one GC over another to win, and that's just not true. It was never true. And in a time where lots of new people are PvPing - for whatever reasons they may be doing it for - allowing that bad idea to stand is going to do more harm than good.
When the time comes, how long will it be before people are saying you HAVE to be on the Ravens instead of the Falcons to win in Rival Wings? -
10-22-2017, 08:53 AMGerythOh man how I wish Mateus had a PvP community I could roll with. Unfortunately solo is my only option, and probably the only option for many other players.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
This is absolutely alive and well. I sat and watched it happen over 800 Frontlines games playing for Flames, Adders, and Maelstrom, and the win rates proportionately went upward like clockwark. It's not coincidence - the sample size is enough here to draw some conclusions. You can look at the Frontlines standings too to see the numbers - it's not anecdotal or secret background data we can't see.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
I'm sorry to tell you but it's a sad truth that simply changing GC can drastically change your Frontlines experience. Is it necessary? No, Flames will win a few, but 25% is way different than 60%. I mean, eventually the cycle will come into Flames favor, but who knows how long that'll be? It's been Maelstrom for a solid 2 months or more, that's long enough to defeat a PvP aspiring new player who doesn't know better.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
Let me point you back to my thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...something-else
Freelancing was putting me on Flames, literally, with no exaggeration, 75% or more of the time. This is because Adders and Maelstrom are turning off freelancing in droves. My win rate on Flames was frustratingly low, and combined with how often I landed on Flames when freelancing, made for a miserable experience. Had I not already had headway into the achievement I wanted from when I used to play this game back in Slaughter days, I would probably would have given up and quit.
Putting my best self forward and really trying to get wins (because only wins count for some mounts/titles), and stretching nights way too far when I really should have stopped to sleep - trying to get at least one more win, and having crap like 6 wins out of 33 games over, is awfully defeating. This is the experience for a lot of new players and this was my freelancing experience. Except, perhaps, for new players that happen to play for Maelstrom over the last couple months and can figure out how to turn off freelance status (it's not intuitive).
If you're not a good player then swapping GC may help some, but all you really do is perpetuate the cycle and eventually you'll be losing again. So getting better at the game is the right answer. I don't want to tell new players they have to pick the right GC and turn off freelancing to land a respectable win rate to earn whatever they are after, but it's an unfortunate truth that picking the right GC helps a lot. -
10-22-2017, 12:41 PMCidel
I see where you're coming from ThirdChild, I really do, and I agree with your list of reasons why people die/fail to score/throw matches/what-have-you. But like Geryth says, there are some reasons why the Maelstrom on primal dominates Shatter matches so far and they both correlate to different points people have brought up previously. I've never swapped GCs at any point in time and have the Amethyst Keel achievement so I have a pretty good understanding of the GC behaviors but...-
-Prior to actually posting this, I asked off-handedly in alliance chat on Mael why they thought we had a better success rate than the other teams. The immediate replies from several people were "bots" and apathetic freelancers. And I would agree on both counts. Bots are actually a large factor, especially on Flames. It is so bad for that particular GC on our datacenter that I daresay that it's pretty much a joke among everyone who has seen it (and I have during a handful of Freelance queues). There's no denying that Flame's abysmal winrate is attributed to their (justified) stigma of containing the most bots (even in 72-man).
The other reason I got was "freelancers who don't care." Apparently there's also the belief that if you're a freelancer on our datacenter, you're not there to win (or care if you don't). Someone guessed that at least 90% of people on Mael are probably native to the Maelstrom GC. One other person even chimed-in with "if you're Mael, why would you freelance?" Even though I agree that this is a flawed stigma, it's obviously a factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
This is related to how the players on the other 2 GCs lose due to frequent questionable strategic moves, poor judgement and playstyles that cause them to lose leads (or even create bigger score gaps). Third, you pointed out many factors in the last page that are detriments to helping a team win, but your last point:
-are actually the exact causes as to why people on a certain successful GC will not queue Freelancer when they know their best chances are on their own GC. That and they want to avoid the prevalent stigmas on one or both of the other teams that obviously have truth to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
These ideas and presumptions back-up what Geryth said earlier, really-
As for people queuing as a group in premades; that is a whole different bag of worms and not a good indicator of any GC performance in most cases (unless of course, they lose). Premades are only relevant to the discussion if every team is running premades at once (which they aren't).Quote:
Originally Posted by Geryth
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10-22-2017, 01:01 PMGerythPremades are a great way to win games, regardless of GC if you can get one. On Mateus it seems impossible - no one seems interested in PvP on that server at all. Maybe cross server party finder will remove barriers like that and the system will improve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidel
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10-23-2017, 06:46 AMThirdChild_ZKI
The biggest problem with this idea of HAVING to switch to a particular GC and turn off Freelancer if you want to win is the demoralization it causes players who don't know better if they're NOT on that GC.
How many times have you heard someone basically give up before the match even begins, or complain about being on a particular GC?
Not only that, but it really just brings us back to the same issues we had before Freelancer that prompted its addition. Once queues for the GCs become imbalanced enough, we'll be back to lengthy queues, because no one wants to freelance in fear of ending up on that GC or whatnot. Granted, so long as the idea stands that you HAVE to be on that winning GC to win, and not perhaps learn more and get better, perhaps meet and team up with other skilled players, and start queueing together (giving bots less room to take up), the problem would only get worse. The "good" GC will just become bloated with people wanting to be carried, and the "bad" ones will never get better. That would only perpetuate the demoralization and prompt more switching, which again, only makes the problems worse. At an extreme case, it would only deter people from queueing because they're not in that GC, or think they can't win for not being in it.
Look, all in all, if you want to win, if you even just want to enjoy PvP more, there's no substitute for learning to play the mode better and finding/forming a team that can coordinate and play well. And you can do that no matter what GC you're in. We even have more tools now (Freelancer, Cross Server PF) to do that with. -
10-24-2017, 03:43 AMGerythYes, that is a problem. I had that same demoralization landing on Flames over and over and over and losing almost all of those matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
Also correct - we're resegregating and going against the design and implementation of the Freelance idea. I think we actually have bots to thank for keeping queue times low. This is flowing real players in Maelstrom and Adders while bots are filling up Flames, and it's probably a large part as to why flames are always losing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
Learning to play absolutely makes a difference. I was able to maintain a 50% win rate with Adders despite the Maelstrom dominated "GC swapping meta". Really though, as I mentioned earlier, I think the "Good" vs. "Bad" GC's are more of a function on the ratio of real players to bots, rather than baddies wanting to get carried by strong players. I think that has a lot to do with why Maelstrom has been so strong for so long - it should be a cycle. The cycle is either really slow or freelance bots have killed the cycle and put Flames in permanent bad status.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
If you're struggling to get wins, yes - seek out help and learn the mode and read these forums for tips on how to play. If you have the patience and time and ability to seek out others to play with, that's also great. But, I'm just saying that it's a fact - swapping to Maelstrom and turning off freelance is going to help a lot with those wins too. I mean I don't want bad players doing that to get easy wins - it just makes it harder for me. I want players to put in the time to get better as well. But for now, the simple act of changing GC (no matter how good you are) is going to make a difference in your win rate. And a lot of that probably has to do with the bots.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
Frontlines is in for a queue time reckoning if the bots start turning off freelance status if getting wins ever becomes a bot's goal.