Yotsuyu [Maybe spoiler]

After finishing 4.1 main quest. Anyone feels like they are pulling an amnesia/reduce to child state like card for our great step on me waifu?

"it's better to bend with the wind than stand tall and be broken." ... or whatever were her words. I think she is faking it.

i kinda got the amnesia feel... or that maybe shes falling for gotsetsu since despite trying to kill him hein and us he still took care of her and hasnt been cruel to her... the first real acts of kindness shown to her...

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

i kinda got the amnesia feel... or that maybe shes falling for gotsetsu since despite trying to kill him hein and us he still took care of her and hasnt been cruel to her... the first real acts of kindness shown to her...

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This was one of my thoughts. I don't believe she is faking it. Or something else happened, and we just havent seen it yet.... It is a curious thing though...

I feel like it would be a major disservice to her character for her to have such a sudden change of heart and nature. I would not be entirely opposed to a redemption story for her but I dislike the idea of her becoming shy and submissive given that she's a victim of physical and sexual abuse. It would feel rather distasteful.

I hope that she is faking it, awaiting the right time to strike and attempt to see her vengeance through to the bitter end. It would certain align well with all of her previous speeches regarding vengeance. As it stands, we don't really have any antagonists in the spotlight as of the end of 4.1. At least not any that are close at hand.

Hm....on a side note we should probably be spoiler tagging this. It relates a bit too directly to the end of the patch.

I personally believe that something like that has happened to Yotsuyu, although it's quite possible that she might be faking it. While there are definite reasons not to like such a plot idea, I do think that it has some merit in how it would relate to the themes of Stormblood. Namely, the themes of the Thin Line Between Justice and Revenge, and how Circumstances Create Villainy. The relation to the first is obvious. The Doman people will be faced with a great struggle on what to do with "Tsuyu". Do they murder her for something she can't remember? Is she still responsible for her actions? Should they throw her in jail or try to trick her? What are they to do in a situation like that? It presents a challenge far more difficult than a mere evil invader or rogue agent. It defines the fate of a nation, and how they'll approach other situations in the future. Something tells me she wasn't the only Garlean Sympathizer, or even spy. The second them s approached in a slightly more abstract manner. It's a clear theme in Stormblood that circumstances define how people develop. The theme was even described by Arenvald (who I love in this patch btw) of all people. If we take away those circumstances (IE memory loss) is Yotsuyu still spiteful and evil? Were her nation less apathetic to her concerns would she have become the same hateful woman we know and loved?

That's the question, and it might be what the writers are going for.

Iam calling for amnesia or something alike, yotsuyu strike me as a woman who will never act childish whetever she's "open up" to someone or not, especially with her current previous attidute.

At best if she labeled someone as her true friend she will still act high and mighty but, in a more friendly tone (read: tsundere)

Basically she is like your typical rich friend who always think she is the "MC" among your group, and if someone telling a story/topic, she will have the "greater version" of it to tell.

Honestly i wish she will appear more in the future story, i find her more interesting compare to fordola despite their story is closely similar.

I think she's regressed to a child like state. I'm glad shes back and I do think she is one of the more interesting SB characters.

Also can her original outfit float through the sea and find it's way for me to wear, thanks.

Yotsuyu seems to have been stricken with amnesia (g-gasp!). That's how it seems to me. This is an interesting thing to do, as it essentially gives her tabula rasa - a blank slate, colored only by her inborn nature. "Tsuyu" is, well... Yotsuyu minus the painful past that shaped her, meaning who and what Tsuyu becomes is entirely up to her experiences and how others treat her. It's a very interesting predicament, because it raises many questions... chiefly "Should Tsuyu, who does not remember Yotsuyu's crimes, be held to account for them?"

... I don't think so. The Domans, on the other hand... well, mob mentality is a real pain in the ass, and even though Yotsuyu will have figuratively died they'll still want vengeance. We also know the Alliance... doesn't seem to share this philosophy, as if my memory serves me correctly they executed the creator of the Black Rose poison despite him being amnesiac or driven insane by guilt (one or the other).

I'm interested to see how this develops.

The real question I have is, why didn't Gosetsu just go to the Sekiseigumi or EATC office for help? He befriended the former and the latter should know who he is...

Amnesia would be a reasonable explanation since she was shown to be unconscious at the end of 4.0

For all we know, she could have been trapped underwater in Doma castle for an extended period and suffered oxygen deprivation in the brain.

I'm more wonder what's going on in Gosetsu's head exactly. He seems intended to head right back to Doma with her in tow. I'm probably just as curious for his reasons for doing all this as I am with her current situation.

I'm not gonna lie, whatever it was I actually found it.....kind of adorable and heartwarming. I hope I'm not the only one that felt this way. ;__;

Amnesia is the most likely culprit here, its not like Final Fantasy is a stranger to it. Said characters also tend to eventually get their memory back, atleast from what I remember. FFIV's Yang had it happen to him once, twice if you count the brainwashing.

Personally expecting her to survive long enough for her memory to return, and thus the clashing of her reclaimed memories and the present kindness of Gosetsu (and, most likely, other characters including ourselves) will be the cause of certain events in...probably 4.4.

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Originally Posted by Big_Panda

Amnesia would be a reasonable explanation since she was shown to be unconscious at the end of 4.0

For all we know, she could have been trapped underwater in Doma castle for an extended period and suffered oxygen deprivation in the brain.

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This is my impression as well. The whole situation reminded me of the Read or Die OVA ending where one of the antagonists suffered pretty much the same fate and ended up an amnesiac and childlike enough for the protagonist to approach and befriend her.

You just know their plans to travel to the Ruby Sea is in all likeliness going to trigger the people she tormented there and then "instant drama" if she can't remember any of it. That'd make her something of a foil to Fordola; someone who literally empathizes with all of her victims versus Yotsuyu who would be unable to even recall any of them.



That or she really is just playing the part.

Amnesia here as well, if she was faking it I don't think she would take such a massive risk entering Kugane where she would be recognized, or not show even a slight of worry when Gosetsu said they were heading to Doma.

My bet is that her plot will revolve around what the Domans will do with her, as some might see it questionable to punish someone who is incapable of remembering what they did. Perhaps she could gradually regain her memory and return to her vengeance-fueled character.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I feel like it would be a major disservice to her character for her to have such a sudden change of heart and nature.

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I agree with you there. Why write such a character if you either just do the simple way and have her forget her past or change her character completely.

More under spoilers:

We know thanks to the side quest that having no memories does not give you a free pass for the things you did in the past. If they change that approach with her, I would feel like they are playing favoritism because people like her.

She did horrible things and just giving her no memories would just feel cheap.

Her changing because of the actions from Gosetsu would feel bad too. She has a deep trauma and at the same time quite an sadistic streaks. Things like that cant realistically be changed by one good thing. And lets not forget that Hien still tried to kill her, even after knowing her past so why should they sudden no do this again?

I really hope that this is just an act and that she will trick us all into believing her which will end badly. At least that would be a nice twist. Giving her no memories and just taking her back would just feel horrible. Like you can do the worst things in the world but as long as you have some sad stories you will be forgiven and if you have some method to make you lose your memories you are good to go..

Hm....lots of good discussion here! I do have something to ask though, and I'd love to hear other people's answers!

What, in a narrative sense, would the point of Yotsuyu just faking her change of heart/amnesia? Why would it be used with the themes of Stormblood? What would it bring to the story other than allowing a (rather well liked) villain to return? What sort of real challenge would it present Doma, Hien, or Gosetsu for her to just be evil? How would it help the story as a whole? What would it say about Yotsuyu, or how would it improve her character?

I'd love to see some answers, I know that this is a somewhat divisive plot point, and I'd like to hear opinions on both sides of the fence!

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Originally Posted by Cilia

... I don't think so. The Domans, on the other hand... well, mob mentality is a real pain in the ass, and even though Yotsuyu will have figuratively died they'll still want vengeance. We also know the Alliance... doesn't seem to share this philosophy, as if my memory serves me correctly they executed the creator of the Black Rose poison despite him being amnesiac or driven insane by guilt (one or the other).

I'm interested to see how this develops.

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And before you know it, there's a shiv in the WoL's backside.

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FFIV's Yang had it happen to him once, twice if you count the brainwashing.

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I'll be damned is she recovers it after beinh hit in the head with a frying pan lmao

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

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Well, Yotsuyu is effectively the 'Cersei Lannister' of FFXIV. Or at least she is during the events of 4.0. Both are tragic characters who do awful things as a result of the trauma that they've experienced and are very broken and dysfunctional to the point where they bring further problems upon themselves due to reckless behaviour, a desire for vengeance and self sabotage. I won't spoil anything for those unfamiliar with Cersei Lannister's story in the Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire setting but she is brutally effective when it comes to vengeance even if causes further damage to herself in the process.

Yotsuyu certainly appeared to be completely devoted to the idea of seeking her own flavour of revenge. Even without Garlemald in the picture it would not be unreasonable for her to continue down that path, fooling those around her with a false claim of amnesia until they let their guard down and she makes another attempt at doing something horrible. As I mentioned earlier there also aren't really any obvious antagonists to deal with at the moment in the MSQ's. Most are rather far removed from Eorzea and the Far East for the time being. Which leaves Yotsuyu in the perfect position to cause some trouble.

@CaesarCV:

About Yotsuyu faking it or not

Well for me it would be refreshing because lets be honest, not everyone will always change for the better even if they get lots of chances to do so. Having all the (alive) main villains change for the better kinda makes them less villains in my eyes. Sometimes (for me) its just better to have at least a bunch of them that will stick to their character to the very end.

We should also not forget that she enjoyed the torture and killing and even at the end when her death was near, she used her past in a way to manipulate us to stay and when she saw that we did not die she tried everything to take us with her. Someone like that should not just change to a very different person over night (or at all). Her having no memories would just completely destroy her character for me and it would feel cheap because its the easiest way to change such a person..

Right now if she does not fake it this will just turn into the Fordola of Doma where at the end people that suffered a lot under her will suddenly forgive her and she could be able to live her life normally. This kinda feels a bit like a fairytale. People are not that forgiven in real life and especially not for something like that. Her faking it and staying how she is would be a bit more realistic in my opinion. She would be able to get more information, maybe even try to worm her way out of punishment by making the people believe different..maybe she is hoping to get some good information from them that she could give back to Garlemald as a spy. And maybe she could be the other side of the medal where we see someone like Fordola being redeemed at the end but also get the lesson that you cant do that with everyone and that sometimes taking them out is for the best.

So for me her not faking it would kinda destroy her character and would at the same time feel cheap. Her faking it could give us the opportunity to see both sides of trying for redemption, one that succeeds and one that fails. Also it would kinda put a bit of a damper on the victory of doma that went far to fast and nearly flawless anyway.

(Could you imagine if Zenos survived but the battle left him with some amnesia? Would people be fine with leaving him alive? Or with him suddenly having a very different personality? Would the alliance truly leave such an enemy alive?)

I was a little disappointed with the amnesia angle honestly. My immediate reaction was “my god... she’s been troped!”

I hope if they go with amnesia, they’ll do it plausibly. Experiences play a vital role in the development of the personality but removing the memories of them cannot change a personality completely. The kind of trauma Yotsuyu suffered as a child leaves lasting marks that amnesia cannot “cure”. She may be given a fresh outlook on life but the way her past “moulded” her inner workings will show. She may become a good person. She may not torture people for fun anymore. But she may feel a sudden joy when someone gets hurt, even if she feels ashamed of it. And she may get inexplicably anxious upon seeing a child being mistreated.

How about a split personality? Yotsuyu might lie dormant inside her due to all what happened, but be prevalent enough where eventually the sadistic side manifests unconsciously at times. Yotsuyu could even come out (after some time has passed) during the times when Tsuyu is asleep and have her plot and do evil stuff, Tsuyu of course being none the wiser about her other self and what she might be doing. You can even add the "watches in horror inside as the other self does things she hates" to the later stages.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

I was a little disappointed with the amnesia angle honestly. My immediate reaction was “my god... she’s been troped!”

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I had the same thought! Honestly, the amnesia angle was a letdown. I'm hoping they do something interesting with it, but am not gonna hold my breath.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

How about a split personality? Yotsuyu might lie dormant inside her due to all what happened, but be prevalent enough where eventually the sadistic side manifests unconsciously at times. Yotsuyu could even come out (after some time has passed) during the times when Tsuyu is asleep and have her plot and do evil stuff, Tsuyu of course being none the wiser about her other self and what she might be doing. You can even add the "watches in horror inside as the other self does things she hates" to the later stages.

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Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde theory, I like that :D

Personally, I have kind of mixed feelings on the idea.

On the one hand, people have a point. They are more or less erasing the Yotsuyu character, and it is kind of cheap form of 'redemption' compared to more complex ones like Fordola, or a great deal of other options. Not to mention that it's not the most original idea, and can definitely be seen as a form of plot armor in an expansion that was perhaps a bit too liberal with the fake deaths. I can definitely understand the frustration about it, and why people see it as bad.

On the other hand though, I can't honestly see her faking it and still being evil providing an interesting story. Yotsuyu really can't be considered a convincing threat to the Doman government (and thus our story). She's far too hated by the populace to rally any sort of supporters, she's not dangerous on a physical level compared to skilled fighters like Yuigiri and Hien, she's already been forsaken by Garlemald, and as far as we know she's not any sort of brilliant manipulator. Even while faking amnesia it's hard to believe that anyone would trust her farther than they could throw her. What would she provide to Hien other than a (very easy to conquer) speedbump? The plot would be she does something evil, and Hien (or Gosetsu or the WoL or someone) cuts her down. Being a rather simple threat was fine for someone like the Qualyana broodmother, but I'm not sure it would be fitting for a more important character like Yotsuyu.

In addition, her old character really didn't have anywhere to go. She already represented the endpoint of the sort of hatreds that various characters get to, the total corruption that one can fall into. If she was faking it she would...just be the exact same. And I don't really see them going anywhere with that other than maybe being a foil to Fordola. Although she kind of already was and wouldn't need further story presence to be said foil. They might have needed to do something drastic in order to make the character workable into the storyline, although it can also be argued that they should have just left her at the bottom of the ocean.

The idea that some have proposed of a sort of Jekyll and Hyde scenario or battles between personalities, that's interesting I have to admit! And I really like it. It could be a way to present a sort of struggle between holding onto old hatreds or trying to move onto the future. And although it's a fantastic scenario, at the very least it's a fun one.

So yeah. Mixed feelings ha ha. Great to see some good discussion here though!

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

In addition, her old character really didn't have anywhere to go. She already represented the endpoint of the sort of hatreds that various characters get to, the total corruption that one can fall into. If she was faking it she would...just be the exact same. And I don't really see them going anywhere with that other than maybe being a foil to Fordola. Although she kind of already was and wouldn't need further story presence to be said foil. They might have needed to do something drastic in order to make the character workable into the storyline, although it can also be argued that they should have just left her at the bottom of the ocean.

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I honestly would have liked it for her to stay death. Her character was really good for the 4.0 story line because we saw someone taking it out on innocent people for their own sadistic wish. At the same time her past might have been used as a warning for Hien to not let that happen in his Doma again. She would have gotten her punishment but we would have also learned something from this. Her surviving this is imo just a punch in the face for all those people that suffered under her. Her being death could have made them move past their experiences and built a better Doma and yet with her surviving and maybe even having amnesia they will have to face her again and might not even be able to punish her. Yes some might be more understanding and might let go of their hate but I dare to say that most probably cant just let go of it that easy and now they know that she might be living her life in freedom, always with the fear that she might turn back to the person she once was and might start something again.

Redeeming Fordola who at least did not enjoy those horrible things she did was at least kinda acceptable for me if it was done in a reasonable way. Doing the same for Yutsuyu just leaves me feeling bad. I hope that we have the chance (which we did not have when we talked with Lyse about Fordola) to voice our opinion about her and that it can be a negative one too..because I would just be annoyed if my character is completely fine with that again.

In the end I kinda wonder if they would have gone the same way with a male character, or if its a bit special because they are females? Maybe its the skeptic side of mine but seeing how Zenos and that other Garlean soldier ended up I do kinda wonder why its the female ones that are maybe getting of the hook..(maybe Yuyuhase and Laurentius just need to bump their heads, then they will be free too)

(Sorry for that bit of a rant..I just really dont like they way they go with her..x) maybe I am just salty that people like her are alive while good ones like Haurchefant, Ysayle, Wilfred, Meffrid are death)

Wow, i guess i predicted right. Or just that the story has become too cliche.

Seems like Yotsuyu doesn't even recognize her own reflection which is what I assume the scene at the beginning of the trailer is (I'm assuming that's a mirror) and probably a bit of the conflict in Doma will be what they do with her as a result of that. Though it's a bit of a cliche it does present a certain conflict. In real world crimes committed by mental ill people are treated differently because of the awareness of the consequences of actions can be a bit shaking and certain treatment can fall under cruel and unusual punishment.

Though not like our world, Hien's personality and ethics could provide some hesitation to the matter of killing or imprisoning someone who doesn't even remember what they did, regardless of how sadistic or horrible the original act was. I'm kind of interested to see where that goes exactly. Regardless of the involved cliche.

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Originally Posted by Draginhikari

Though not like our world, Hien's personality and ethics could provide some hesitation to the matter of killing or imprisoning someone who doesn't even remember what they did, regardless of how sadistic or horrible the original act was. I'm kind of interested to see where that goes exactly. Regardless of the involved cliche.

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To be fair, we already have an example of someone who committed a heinous crime, but does not remember what they did: Grillairmais, former head researcher of the XIVth, and developer of the Black Rose weapon.

Last we heard, his punishment was expected to be "severe", and Tahla Molkoh says that while she almost pities him, "memories or no, his crimes cannot be excused."

(Questline starts with "A Hidden Truth", and ends with "An Honest Truth".)

So the comparison is more about how Hien treats an amnesiac criminal differently (or not) from the Eorzean Alliance.

I think one thing that might happen with Yotsuyu though which might complicate things is what else happened under Garlean occupation. If you remember in the MSQ, Yotsuyu called out Goesetsu for what he had done while serving Garlemald and he didn't deny it. Being the honor bound fellow that he is, Goesetsu might make a point of that which could end up with Hein facing the possibility of having to execute his own friend if he wishes to genuinely claim justice. There might be more than that. We don't know what the leaders of Doma allowed for the sake of placating their new masters.

Remember Goesetsu's words in the trailer:

"You speak of sins my lord, but at who's feet do those sins lie?"

Of course, the fact that the Garlean ambassador is Yotsuyu's cousin might end up playing into events too.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

To be fair, we already have an example of someone who committed a heinous crime, but does not remember what they did: Grillairmais, former head researcher of the XIVth, and developer of the Black Rose weapon.

Last we heard, his punishment was expected to be "severe", and Tahla Molkoh says that while she almost pities him, "memories or no, his crimes cannot be excused."

(Questline starts with "A Hidden Truth", and ends with "An Honest Truth".)

So the comparison is more about how Hien treats an amnesiac criminal differently (or not) from the Eorzean Alliance.

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I'd actually completely forgotten about that side quest.

I expected yotsuyu to regain her memory at some time later, but in the end she still going to be our side but under surveillance or something like that.

Compare to all villain, she is definitey a character on pardon/forgiven list.

I think we are going to have to see her side of the story for the player base to really give her a chance. I don't know if that is going to happen though. Yotsuyu is different in one notable way to Fordola though. Fordola was an outcast who still desired to protect Ala Mhigo. Yotsuyu however was a broken woman who felt abandoned by her own people and only found relief from her life the day the imperials offered to buy her out as a spy. Doma lived as a vassal state for a long time and I suspect that Yotsuyu was created by the things those in leadership in Doma allowed at the time for the sake of placating their imperial masters.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Doma lived as a vassal state for a long time and I suspect that Yotsuyu was created by the things those in leadership in Doma allowed at the time for the sake of placating their imperial masters.

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Well obviously. It seems an important theme in Stormblood is that nobody is born inherently evil. Both Yotsuyu and Fordola suffered greatly at the hands of the "good guys' before they broke. Question is, do we want to redeem them all or do we want a villain(ess) that we just love to hate.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Well obviously. It seems an important theme in Stormblood is that nobody is born inherently evil. Both Yotsuyu and Fordola suffered greatly at the hands of the "good guys' before they broke. Question is, do we want to redeem them all or do we want a villain(ess) that we just love to hate.

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Fordola being redeems works. I am not sure that works quite as good for Yotsuyu. She seems to be pretty broken emotionally. That isn't something you just get better from in a short period of time if at all. Even remembering that past would be something extremely traumatic for her. Honestly if she survives I could see her cousin taking custody of her. For all we know she might end up offing herself if she regains her memory. I don't think they will take it too dark but the trailer gave me the feeling that Yotsuyu and Goesetsu surviving are going to dredge past sins to the surface.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Fordola being redeems works. I am not sure that works quite as good for Yotsuyu. She seems to be pretty broken emotionally. That isn't something you just get better from in a short period of time if at all.

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By redeem I mean not looked at as a villain. I mean I like my villains complex and not just jackasses with a single minded focus on destruction (Hello there Sygmascape V4 boss Kefka), but I also like them irredeemably evil. Considering Zelos is dead and both girls are on their way towards redemption I say we need a villain fast. The game can go meta if it wants and pick war itself as a villain or something, but we still need an antagonist. A tangible one.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

By redeem I mean not looked at as a villain. I mean I like my villains complex and not just jackasses with a single minded focus on destruction (Hello there Sygmascape V4 boss Kefka), but I also like them irredeemably evil. Considering Zelos is dead and both girls are on their way towards redemption I say we need a villain fast. The game can go meta if it wants and pick war itself as a villain or something, but we still need an antagonist. A tangible one.

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I would wait and see where this Garlean plot is going. I think we will start to see new characters rearing their heads soon as the story starts moving towards the next expansion. Honestly I would find Yotsuyu swinging back to full villain just as lame as if she suddenly because redeemed. As I said before, I think years of trauma made her brittle and the defeat in Doma Castle cracked her. I don't see her regaining that ridged emotional control and detachment even if she does remember.

It seems to be a amensia through trauma... though it dosnt pardon her actions she is the victim of emotion pyshical and sexual abuse. After almost dying its not hard to believe her mind did a block on her memories to try a d protect her