SMN 4.1 = Plenty of Mana but Net Dps loss single target :-(

Now I have too much mana and not enough function to use it. '

Thanks for the Dps nerf SE ✌️

It is not really nerf. Your ruin 2 uptime is heavily reduced and that way you can get more dps weaving during dwt and ruin 4 procs. There is my two neo exdeath runs before and after and you can compare how much I use ruin in each fight. I m not saying i played perfect in these runs, but you can see the difference. Dps is around 4.8k in both runs.

Before
https://i.imgur.com/QVKeoHh.jpg
After
https://i.imgur.com/lRQDjlA.jpg

I find it really hard to feel bad for you when you now get a free foe req for the whole party now including yourself.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

It is not really nerf. Your ruin 2 uptime is heavily reduced and that way you can get more dps weaving during dwt and ruin 4 procs. There is my two neo exdeath runs before and after and you can compare how much I use ruin in each fight. I m not saying i played perfect in these runs, but you can see the difference. Dps is around 4.8k in both runs.

Before
https://i.imgur.com/QVKeoHh.jpg
After
https://i.imgur.com/lRQDjlA.jpg

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I noticed there was no change in the number of Ruin IV casts; I'd expect an increase in usage during Demi-Bahamut?

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Originally Posted by aldoteng

I noticed there was no change in the number of Ruin IV casts; I'd expect an increase in usage during Demi-Bahamut?

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Well encounter is like 1min faster that can reduce number of certain skills.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Well encounter is like 1min faster that can reduce number of certain skills.

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The change in % damage done of Ruin IV was also negligible from 5.98% to 6.06%.

I suspect, after playing around with the new SMN, that this is due to not being used to watching out for Ruin IV procs, hence missing out on some procs. Previously we never needed to pay attention to procs.

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Originally Posted by AbelArchaniEA

Now I have too much mana and not enough function to use it. '

Thanks for the Dps nerf SE ✌️

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lol no, you have more dps and now you realistically have mana for other things such as raises. People been complaining about SMN's terrible mp management in comparison with RDM and this thread is a big facepalm. Not only SMN dps is now better (especially the sustained one, nobody gives a damn about 2 minute dummies where you end up with 500 mana), it's a lot more reliable due to DWT being full instant (which means you can also weave stuff there).

More raid damage (due to devotion's slight buff), more mobility, more damage and FAR better MP management.

And you still complain.

+1 Gallus if any smn still complains about pot, mm, utility & mobility they should really leave this cls...

there is nothing to complain about anymore aside Bahamuts movement-mentality other than that please put yourself together now... – hate to say this but we are heading right towards "op-ness" again... even the death-penalty is a bit better now due the (re)summon-adjustments... so there isn't anything to moan about...

(oh and maybe the aether-lockoutsystem, which I personally don't care at all but I know a lot of new-age summoners who still fight for this "issue" to open up dwts-aether like it was before)

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I find it really hard to feel bad for you when you now get a free foe req for the whole party now including yourself.

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As a former SMN main and BRD main now, please kindly stop. SE hasn't addressed the major issues with SMN's clunkiness at all with these changes. These were simply the things that were the easiest to fix in the short term for them. Also Foes does affect your damage. The issue with it is even though it's a boost it's not enough to make up for the GCD you used. Thus it is DPS loss for you but a net gain for the whole raid if handled properly.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

As a former SMN main and BRD main now, please kindly stop. SE hasn't addressed the major issues with SMN's clunkiness at all with these changes. These were simply the things that were the easiest to fix in the short term for them. Also Foes does affect your damage. The issue with it is even though it's a boost it's not enough to make up for the GCD you used. Thus it is DPS loss for you but a net gain for the whole raid if handled properly.

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What are talking about?


Summoner flows really well, imo.

Everything you do is locked behind Aetherflow, so you'll be working in 60 second increments and within said increments you flow through 2-3 phases, Rouse.. DWT.. Bahamut. Once you understand that the class flows extremely well and works in ~20 second increments.

Summoner also is currently the 2nd highest DPS at the 50-99% range in FFLogs in Savage, with only Samurai above it. If you include the raid dps increase via Radiant Shield, a 2% phys damage debuff that potentially lasts 24 seconds and is on a 60 second cooldown, and the raidwide Devotion buff (2% for 15 seconds on a 2 minute CD) they are easily ahead of Samurais in DPS. They also are MUCH more mobile than BLM and arguably RDM (Dualcast makes every other cast instant whereas SMNs can make use of ruin 2 at what is now only a 30 potency loss compared to 50 before via Ruin 3), do better damage than BLM and RDM, have better utility than BLM and RDM (BLM virtually none, while the rDPS increase Devotion, Contagion, and Radiant Shield bring outweighs those that Embolden brings), and can also resurrect allies now that we are overflowing with MP every 60 seconds because Swiftcast is no longer needed to use a Ruin 4 proc during Bahamut phase... 1 rez a minute should be fine if your group knows the fight.

In other words, SMN flows very well if you understand the class, has the best DPS and utility of all the casters by a solid margin... ESPECIALLY if you take into account their rdps increase via said utility, AND is very mobile. I don't understand why people are continuing to complain about Summoner. Even before 4.1 SMN was in a great spot, but now? Geez man we are insane.

I think the real problem with the class is that it requires thought.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

It is not really nerf. Your ruin 2 uptime is heavily reduced and that way you can get more dps weaving during dwt and ruin 4 procs. There is my two neo exdeath runs before and after and you can compare how much I use ruin in each fight. I m not saying i played perfect in these runs, but you can see the difference. Dps is around 4.8k in both runs.

Before
https://i.imgur.com/QVKeoHh.jpg
After
https://i.imgur.com/lRQDjlA.jpg

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And yet you did less overall damage .... lol

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Originally Posted by Music4Therapy

snip.

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You never played HW SMN, did you? Otherwise you might get it.


It's not a case of me not understanding the class. It's me understanding it all too well, and watching it get completely gutted due the devs not wanting to find a better way to handle the problem DWT was originally designed for. Just because it has good numbers doesn't mean it's design isn't horrendously flawed now compared to back then, either.

HW SMN by its nature is a decision based class. You choose your filler, you choose what to spend Aetherflow on, when to use it, and you choose when to use DWT. The thing is, DWT wasn't filler then. It was a beautiful accident. In HW all of your major cooldowns were multiples of 60s. Raging Strikes, Rouse, Spur, Tri-Disaster, Contagion, Aetherflow. Everything fed into that. Those cooldowns plus DWT, Shadowflare, Miasma II, and two Aetherflow abilities got pressed within a roughly 20-25s window with 35-40s of downtime. And provided you managed Aethertrail correctly, you could flex about 20s of where you needed to keep it all looping perfectly without sacrificing anything. Not a good time to pop DWT cause you have to move? Just wait. Jump coming soon? Pop DWT early and get the value you can out of it while your cooldowns keep ticking down. It's similar to how MCH plays now with Overheat/Wildfire, but with more flexibility, that was instantly made better from even more self-synergy. One of the major things was all of your AoE could fit in the DWT window if you wanted it to. And snapshotting all of your buffs (and your target's debuffs) on your DoTs, made spreading them with Bane absolutely insane.

But in 4.0? None of that happens. You simply had no choice when you do things. You can't even change the order. It doesn't require thought, it's on rails, and that's a problem because those rails aren't smooth, fluid, and interesting the way BRD's are by contrast. The game's engine literally has animation lock and server delay combine to make one of the most clunky implementations of pets ever, and you are stuck waiting on Contagion to go off before Bahamut, which meant delaying DWT, which if you wanted to maximize that, meant losing a bit of Rouse in 4.0 cause you didn't want to clip your GCD in DWT to use it.

Bahamut may not be implemented well, but I have far more issues with specific aspects of its design that clearly are oversights. He lets you use oGCDs that have a target to trigger Wyrm Wave, which would normally be an auto attack. And you have to fit in Akh Morn during all of that without disrupting your flow, leading you down a path of all sorts of clipping, only it's pet clipping, which you have even less control over. I can chalk that up to SE attempting to fix problem only to create another, but I take issue with the idea that it's somehow okay for Addle to be one of these abilities. Fester? Fine. Bane? Sure, even if it seems stupid to some, it's technically a damage ability that happens to have a target. But Addle? Why???? SE specifically stated they were trying to eliminate utility being used as a DPS increase! So why is this in here? More over, why is Bahamut on a separate CD? They easily could have integrated it into DWT and not done the lockouts and only made him trigger on spells, thus saving themselves two buttons without causing any of this to happen. Did they not want any more GCD clipping from Festers? Well too bad they just implemented that change this patch cause mobility was an issue. Why? Oh, right. Aetherflow Lockouts.

This one change in 4.0 is the reason all of the above is an issue, by the way. All of those problems are nitpicks, but they're compounded by this one thing: Aetherflow and Aethertrail stacks and DWT are now all consolidated into one gauge, and none of these formerly separate effects are allowed to exist independently of one another at any point. This forces the rotation on us, fine, but this creates the scenario where we're essentially using one of our pet abilities (Contagion is just that good on single bosses, sorry. As long as one of your healers can get in some dps alongside you during it, it beats radiant shield) to do the same thing that DWT did before to buff our damage during Aetherflow, our largest spike. DWT accomplished this fine, so what was the point of the lockout in the first place, then? Filler. It's not even interesting filler though. It's the same filler that we're already doing either way. Filler that SE has been actively trying to stop us doing by nerfing Ruin III over and over, except whooooops Lucid Dreaming/Refresh made us spam it and effectively took the choice of when to do so away from us during the rest of our rotation! So now SE finally relented and merged Ruin and Ruin III to put an end to us emptying our MP bars for more damage because there was literally nothing better to do. They've removed the choice we had in when to add extra burst during a fight by gradually making it static, except for our mobility.

They only added the mobility factor to DWT because players were complaining they couldn't use all of DWT. Except in HW you could plan it out so you were only moving outside of DWT, easily. Now, you've literally been given a mobility cooldown, and the flexibility to use it when you need to cause Rouse and it still pair so well together. And now you can use it without clipping. So why do we have Ruin II, then? In case we mess up or need to activate Aetherflow. Which doesn't contribute much of anything when DWT Ruin III just does it better, so people are going to use DWT like we used to use our time out of DWT before, only there's less of it to go around without sacrificing DPS. But it's fine, we have Aetherflow still, there's no way they couldn't screw that up, right?

Oh, wait. Why are you allowed to press an off-cooldown Aetherflow at any point when you have full Aethertrail or are in during DWT? I know why. They couldn't get to it. You want the lockouts to remain? Fine, fix that so fat fingers don't kill a whole minute of your rotation. Cause they invariably do happen to people. But you know what also happens to people in this game. They die on progression. A lot. And doing so completely undoes your progress towards the one thing everyone wanted in Stormblood.

Yes, SMN is better now than 4.0, but you have to have played it during HW and use a modicum of imagination to extrapolate that the best of HW's iteration and this iteration of SMN could have easily been put together. Had the devs not been stubborn about DWT, had they paid more attention to how Bahamut operated, and had they paid attention to the players who loved the class in HW; they could have left what was already working there, while still implementing all the QoL that was necessary. Thus not alienating so many HW SMN players while still making the class more accessible for newcomers.

Don't believe me? Look at my poll. 2 to 1 odds says there's a problem here.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Snip.

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Sounds like you can't enjoy 4.x SMN because you miss 3.x SMN. I can relate, I used to main MCH. I love burst classes in games, but I also love playing classes/jobs/characters that require thought... and a monkey can play 4.x MCH. Its nigh impossible to "accidently overheat" now, making "managing" the heat gauge a joke, the rotation itself is relatively braindead until Wildfire phase but after some time wacking a dummy its muscle memory. It went from a class that required the stars aligning to maximize those burst windows, to wack-a-mole.

4.x SMN appeals to me because it does things 3.x SMN doesn't. I can understand your frustration about them changing the identity of your class, but what they have is something powerful and well-thought out imo but people refuse to accept it because 3.x SMN was great as well. It flows extremely well through phases and feels like 3.x MCH only with much more Wildfire phases.

Pre-pull Aetherflow>>Rouse+Burn through stacks>> DWT>> Aetherflow>> Burn through stacks > DWT >> Rouse >> Aetherflow+Bahamut >> DWT >> Rouse >> Aetherflow >> DWT >> Rouse >> Aetherflow+Bahamut >> DWT >> Rouse >> etc...

And unlike other classes that go through phases, you can easily fix/align your timers on the fly. Delay in the fight and Aetherflow is up while DWT is up? End DWT early, use Aetherflow.. if Bahamut is ready enter Bahamut then enter DWT directly afterwards and make use of the tri-disaster reset because your dots will be falling off soon. Bahamut wasn't ready? Just burn through your stacks and enter DWT again. The class is extremely fluid and can adjust any situation on the fly.

Yes it can. But your DPS plummets then.
"Delay in the fight and Aetherflow is up while DWT is up? End DWT early, use Aetherflow" ? Enjoy the DPS loss
"ahamut is ready enter Bahamut then enter DWT directly afterwards and make use of the tri-disaster reset because your dots will be falling off soon" ? Enjoy the DPS loss.

Many adjustements are possible, all are a huge DPS loss at the end of a complicated fight.

Difference between Best smns and lesser ones is 60 to 65 %. Other jobs is max 50%. So no, adjustments on the fly do not work out well for SMN. While in HW an adjustment on the fly was NOT necessarily a burden on your DPS, here it always is.

TL;DR : take it out on a fight you know well it is a pleasure, take it out on a discovery and welcome to hell where you top at 3500

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Originally Posted by Music4Therapy

It flows extremely well through phases and feels like 3.x MCH only with much more Wildfire phases.

Pre-pull Aetherflow>>Rouse+Burn through stacks>> DWT>> Aetherflow>> Burn through stacks > DWT >> Rouse >> Aetherflow+Bahamut >> DWT >> Rouse >> Aetherflow >> DWT >> Rouse >> Aetherflow+Bahamut >> DWT >> Rouse >> etc...

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for 4.0 smn you should always have aetherflow on cd -> that means that especially for the opener the dwt+ruin part should be skipped here. you should go for your buffs first (if you wanna do it right you also use radiant AND con in the opener but thats just horrible to get used to...) than as soon as possible rushing to your 2nd dwt phase.

that being said it could look like prepull food, radiant shield, summon ruda, on pull con -> int pot -> tri -> fester -> pain flare -> swift ruin 3 / ruin 4 -> fester (or even faster if you go with the old fester, painflare, energydrain) -> dwt -> now everything what profits of the dwt buff -> devotion -> tri again, rouse+enkindle, shadowflare -> if all parasites are set directly deathflare without using ruin in their duration -> than your normal rota kicks in with fester, ruin, fester, ruin, fester -> dwt -> ruin spam -> tri -> deathflare... etc.

the lockouts "kinda" forces you to hold several skills on cd as soon as possible aetherflow and rouse are important ones of them... so every sec you have aetherflow or rouse up without using it its a dps-loss -> what doesn't fit with your opinion that:

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Originally Posted by Music4Therapy

And unlike other classes that go through phases, you can easily fix/align your timers on the fly. Delay in the fight and Aetherflow is up while DWT is up? End DWT early, use Aetherflow.. if Bahamut is ready enter Bahamut then enter DWT directly afterwards and make use of the tri-disaster reset because your dots will be falling off soon. Bahamut wasn't ready? Just burn through your stacks and enter DWT again. The class is extremely fluid and can adjust any situation on the fly.

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your phases & timers seem very flexible at first but they are always paid by dps loss if you hold your cds back. Same for "Bahamut ready?" - if you go for "Flexi" the Dragon himself might be ready without all the ogcds which he needs to make a point... see? its not soooo organic you might think of or someone could think of after reading your comment above - but it's getting better and better lately. ^^


But still I can feel ya passion for the cls cause im likewise and actually am happy that there not just complainers or haters around if we talk bout Summoners in generell : 3

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Originally Posted by AbelArchaniEA

And yet you did less overall damage .... lol

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That is mainly because because encounter time is different. Dps is almost same in both runs and i did not have ninja on other run. Picture was mainly showing off number of ruin 3 and number of ruin 2 usage.

To add to the debate : the dummy case
I thought initally, since we burned mana and mostly spammed ruin III / Ruin II and almost never ruin, the change would decrease our dummy DPS the most.

Well it did not. on the contrary I gained about 100 points from before. The thing is : in trance you don't have to revert to ruin II to weave anymore.
Plus, you can use a ruin 4 proc to weave or move, so you can use it asap and by doing so, you are ready for more possible procs (chance hasn’t changed, but when another one proced while you hadn’t used the first one, you lost a proc)

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Originally Posted by Karshan

"Delay in the fight and Aetherflow is up while DWT is up? End DWT early, use Aetherflow" ? Enjoy the DPS loss
"ahamut is ready enter Bahamut then enter DWT directly afterwards and make use of the tri-disaster reset because your dots will be falling off soon" ? Enjoy the DPS loss.

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This is horribly incorrect. No class benefits moreso from a break in a fight than SMN. SMNs gain DPS when there are breaks in the fights. If your rotation is off, either you made a mistake and that is not a fault of the class or there was a mechanic you and/or everyone has to deal with.

For SMN, if there is a break in the fight, because the way Aetherflow works, that means you are that much closer to your next DWT. That means you are that much closer to your next Bahamut Phase. That means you have extra Aetherflow stacks to work with. Your dots typically keep ticking while the boss is gone as well. Break offs in the fight are more in the favor of SMN than any other class because the way Aetherflow and DWT works, in addition to the strength of their dots. Assuming you know how to handle the different phases.

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Originally Posted by Music4Therapy

Your dots typically keep ticking while the boss is gone as well.

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That is not true, if boss is not target able dots are doing zero damage against most of encounters.

Sorry to say, but any summoner who is complaining right now about the job needs to wake up and realize that their class got literally the most love so far this expansion (save for maybe machinist which also desperately needed it) and that it is very strong and very good utility. The counter-intuitive nature of demi-bahamut and off-gcds should have been addressed and weren't (hashtag squareenix, mirite? lol), but other than that the class is pretty much as good as it has ever been now with tri-bind being really strong aoe damage in DWT.

Also, DoTs tick when the boss is away in certain cases but not in all cases.

If the breaks happen within your 20 seconds "subphases", sure thing. When they come mess up with the border between those subs, forcing you to delay, the thing is either you delay, or you don't use a spell for a long time.
I would really like, for exemple, to be able to use my AF if it comes up, while my trance still hasn't been used. Not to use skills during, but to avoid having it up for a whole trance or shorten my trance to use it.

@ Llugen : I totally agree with you, I'm quite happy with the patch even if it didn't fix everything it is a really good way. For the future, I'd rather have it nerfed a bit BUT adressed rotation wise

Summoners fantastic now. I'm of the opinion now that most of the people who are still complaining are 3.x SMN mains who won't ever be happy until its exactly like it was in HW.

Also on the whole Bahamut mobility thing, just treat him like BLMs Leylines. If you have to dodge something, fine, but weave your way back to him so you minimize movement. And remember the ABCs, Always Be Casting. That should alleviate any potential dps loss due to Bahamut wanting to be close to his master.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

I would really like, for exemple, to be able to use my AF if it comes up, while my trance still hasn't been used. Not to use skills during, but to avoid having it up for a whole trance or shorten my trance to use it.

@ Llugen : I totally agree with you, I'm quite happy with the patch even if it didn't fix everything it is a really good way. For the future, I'd rather have it nerfed a bit BUT adressed rotation wise

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100% with you regarding aetherflow and trance. Agreed - I'd also take a pot nerf if it meant a smoother rotation.

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Originally Posted by Vegituh

Snip.

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SMN has fantastic damage because every job but them got significant potency nerfs in some manner going into SB to compensate for direct hit and button bloat while they didn't single-target wise. It's cause everyone else's numbers got worse that they're in a good spot on that front, but I don't care about their numbers. I care about their design. SE can fix numbers easier than they can fix design at any point, and while this is a step in the right direction, I don't think they should remain this way long term, both numbers, and design wise. I liked that they were the AoE kings in HW too, but I recognize that also needed to change to fix them going forward. All that said, I'm willing to try them out again cause they're finally DF viable.

By the way, is the SMN opener stillthe same after the 4.1 changes? :o

The changes to smn have helped a lot of the issues that we have had. There are still a couple of functional issues, when I'm in a learning phase, such as going in on the new raid I take in RDM. Not all classes have to deal with lockouts, death penalty, and such (got 70 blm, rdm, smn, sam, brd), and smn definitely benefits from fore-knowledge more than others save blm.

I actually like the MP changes. I can use Mana Shift more reliably now. It also helped the death penalty mp issue some but overall the damage loss is a pain. The devotion and DWT ogcd changes are fantastic, makes the class more useful and variable. I think the loss of variability was what I hated so much from 3.0 to 4.0. It was so rigid and structured when 4.0 came out. I felt like if I wanted that sort of rigidity I'd have played blm full time instead. I feel a lot happier now with the 4.1 changes.

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Originally Posted by popotaro

By the way, is the SMN opener stillthe same after the 4.1 changes? :o

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Hard to say if u dont tell us which one u are used to : o

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Originally Posted by Neela

Hard to say if u dont tell us which one u are used to : o

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Was using the one in that guide "Eirene Snow's Comprehensive Thoughts on 4.0 SMN"

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Originally Posted by popotaro

Was using the one in that guide "Eirene Snow's Comprehensive Thoughts on 4.0 SMN"

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The rotation is pretty much the same. If you want to try something out, then search for the pet swap openers

Yeah pretty much what Gospel said the only new thing is to experiment with egi swap to get both buffs of con and radiant ^^