It's nice that SCHs are getting them and all those nice mp changes, but ASTs are still with the inflated mp costs to our aspected heals that were introduced in SB. The Ewer is not a reliable source of mp because it's rng based which leaves us only with Lucid Dreaming. Meanwhile both other healers have mechanics to replenish their mp on top of the role skill and mp cost cuts.
[Request] AST MP cost reductions please
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10-07-2017, 05:29 PMBillyKaplan[Request] AST MP cost reductions please
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10-07-2017, 05:57 PMJohaandr
Uhh no
Always combine lucid dream with celestial :T
Its easy to manage MP only if u know what ur doing lol :T -
10-07-2017, 05:58 PMBillyKaplanSo I need to burn two cooldowns just to keep up, ok, great, ty. It's not like the other healers have mechanics that give them back mp basically just from healing or somethingQuote:
Originally Posted by Johaandr
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10-07-2017, 06:02 PMFelisI don't think there exist a healing spell, that recover MP of the casterQuote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
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10-07-2017, 06:04 PMBillyKaplanhttps://image.prntscr.com/image/BxCM...TnfYbdjfVw.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Felis
To elaborate on what I meant before in regards to Assize - the more aggressive you are with your heals as WHM, the more lilies you have, the lower the cooldown on this baby gets, the more MP refreshes you get over the same time-frame. And that's alongside Lucid Dreaming. -
10-07-2017, 06:07 PMBacent
Astro base heal costs less than Scholar base heal.
Astro group heal has the 150% heal potency for barriers, Scholar doesn't at the moment and scholar's costs more.
Astro has constant instant cast heal spells while Scholar has to use stacks in order to use instants.
Astro has all around cheaper spell costs.
And when I was leveling Astro, compared to when I was leveling Scholar, Scholar had way more MP issues than Astro did. It was pretty easy to heal as Ast/Whm compared to it, even more so with bigger pulls. -
10-07-2017, 06:08 PMJohaandrI dont know if you're being sarcastic but i dont want to make a large note about "how to heal as ast".Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
Ast got the cheapest mana cost among three healers. Adlo was expensive for being a weaker shield compared to ast noct aspected benefic. But they are fixing that one for 4.1.
You shouldnt be overhealing but rather precasts heals from aspected or helios. Example if 8 people has 80% hp they really dont need to be healed if Hot or shield is in effect for the next raid aoe dmg.
I dont know what you are struggling with.
this thread should be moved to healer role discussion :p -
10-07-2017, 06:21 PMSylvina
It's my understanding that shield applying heals are best cast right before raidwide damage, and then you cast the non shielding aoe heal after if you need to.
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10-07-2017, 07:59 PMPomelo
Ewer and Lucid Dreaming.
Lightspeed is SUCH a good reduction. Like if you need to cast a few AOE heals (which are your big MP costs) you may as well use Lightspeed, you can click it off if you like afterwards or extend it with Celestial, like everything else in the AST kit. -
10-07-2017, 08:12 PMSerilda
Why is LD seen as burning a cooldown? It's not an emergency button. Use it. CO is better used than saved too; if you line up some good cards (easier than ever at the moment) and LD you can do wonders with MP restore while also helping the party.
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10-07-2017, 08:19 PMAmetrine
You missed the part where SCH's basic, GCD healing recieved a nasty nerf in a massive MP cost increase at 4.0, and Aetherflow's MP recovery was severely cut down from 30% to 10%, so this "buff" is actually bringing SCH back up to the level of AST and WHM. Basically, 4.0 way over nerfed SCH, and it's getting little buffs to find the sweet spot.
ALSO, Astrolgian sects give ALL healing spells better potencies without increasing MP costs, so AST heals are comparatively cheaper, and you have the short, potend oGCD Essential Dignity and can store a Lady of Crowns. ALSO ALSO, you have Lightspeed as a clutch heal situational skill that slashes MP costs on top of Lucid Dreaming and Ewer.
Yeah, man, AST isn't hurting and won't be set aside by tye meta after 4.1. -
10-07-2017, 08:20 PMOpus
Thin Air is OP.
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10-07-2017, 08:20 PMMoroMurasaki
Lightspeed is amazing and using it for stacking AoE heals or a raise can save you lots of MP.
Also remember Collective Unconscious has a HoT which you can access even in Noct stance, not to mention the sweet shield-bubble that it is.
AST (more than WHM for sure and perhaps more than SCH in some ways) requires a bit more thought about your MP management. Less of the MP reduction/return is frontloaded into parts of your kit you would be using anyways (Assize, Aetherflow) and in my opinion it's more reliant on the AST making the most of their kit so they don't need to Ewer themselves.
That being said on WHM I got an Enhanced Ewer in Susano EX from my cohealer the other night which pretty much saved us from a wipe. Sometimes it's a good idea. Don't be scared to use it. -
10-07-2017, 08:22 PMAmetrineThis is exactly correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvina
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10-07-2017, 08:54 PMMiste
I don't think AST needs help or buffs in the MP department.
I mean I raid savage on AST and I don't have MP issues unless there were simply too many deaths or mistakes in which case any healer would likely run out. I mean Ewer sometimes does pop up when you need it and like other posters said LD + CO is a good combo.
So I don't know, in my experience AST is fine when it comes to MP. Not as good as WHM of course, but still totally fine for all content. -
10-07-2017, 09:25 PMMirateskiI get where you're coming from, and you absolutely burn assize on cooldown outside of prog, but the ideal whm barely touches the cure spells. Hell even in the early savage turns that I've healed (1 and 2s so far) I only need to touch the cure button if I've picked up one of those "cooldowns for wyrm tail? naaah" tanks in this week's pug.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
Also, Adlo's mp cost is so restrictive you can run dry trying to get a crit from it BEFORE A PULL. Its cost is so high that the OUT OF COMBAT mp regen tick isn't enough.
AST only has mp problems if they're spamming gravity or their cohealer is allergic to raidwide heals, and neither of those cases is cause to lower mp costs. -
10-07-2017, 09:31 PMSnow_PrincessYou do see he said SPELL?Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
anyways ast is fine -
10-07-2017, 09:55 PMMisterLucieYou don't have to use Celestial JUST for LD. Have a good AoE card stored? HoTs up? Pop lucid dreaming and extend everything. It's all about timing things right and getting the most bang for your buck.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
I regularly will use an AoE balance/spear, diurnal Aspected Helios, lucid dreaming, and then pop celestial for massive extended buffs on everyone and huge mp regen right after white hole/before black holes on o4s. You can even do it on a pull (except without the helios) and go hardcore aggressive on your dps because you'll have so much MP to use up. -
10-07-2017, 10:16 PMBillyKaplan
Most of what people have said so far still rings like it needs to burn too many cooldowns just to maintain my mp. Lightspeed is an emergency button in my book and the mp cost cut on it ties in with what it should be used for, but it feels wrong to use it just for the sake of MP management. Burning Essential Dignity to get the cooldown on it down feels wasteful as well.
And nothing brought up in this thread negates the main point that AST's mp management is still locked heavily behind RNG, and many points brought up here are basically 'well if you get lucky it will all work out well'.
At the end of the day, the reality of the matter is that when I run BLM, it's the ASTs I have to Mana Shift before any other healer (used to be SCHs, but they changed them since), and that's in dungeons, raids, or the extremes I go into. -
10-07-2017, 10:33 PMVaerThing is if you get the full benefit from it when you use it, it's not really wasting it. Wasting it is holding onto it thinking you'll need it later then never use it. (I see a lot of players do that) If you hold LD for 2 full minutes you could have used it twice and got twice the amount of MP from that one skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
LDream is only 2 minutes and it gives a lot of MP. Not to mention with proper use of Earthly Star (insane amount of healing that costs 0 MP, only 1 min cooldown, instead of spamming helios you can just use this for stack markers and save a lot of MP and Dignity which also costs no MP which has a low cooldown can be used to manage MP. If you end up flipping the arcana (because you don't need either card you draw) into the healing card that is another MP free heal.
Usually when I see healers run out of MP it's usually:
A) People dying like crazy (this isn't the specific job's fault, people just need to stop dying)
B) Overhealing (healers that keep regens/spamming shields when there is going to be no damage at all, wasting MP)
C) Not using Lucid Dreaming until they are completely out of MP (Bad idea, unless you are churning through MP so fast that you unintentionally dump everything in 2 minutes after using LD in which case you might want to check what you're doing)
D) Aggressive DPS (Using too many Holy/Gravity/Miasma II and bottoming out but usually they'll just pop LD and get all their MP back by the next pull so no problem there)
E) Tank is undergeared af/no cooldown and pulls to the wall causing perma Cure II/Benefic II and Adlo spam. -
10-07-2017, 10:34 PMKurando
In most duties if you are good with your MP management then Lucid Dreaming is more than enough. Yes occasionally you may feel having a Ewer is necessary, but if you are either over DPSing that you run low on MP or are healing ineffectively (i.e. lots of AOEs, or constant Benefic II etc) then that's a learning issue to be fair. The fact that more MP can be restored by other allies (more accessible Refresh and Mana Shift) is just a bonus, nothing much in terms of AST MP has changed much after Stormblood and the management is still there regardless.
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10-07-2017, 10:43 PMMoroMurasakiIt sounds kind of like you just don't want to have to think about MP when you're healing. You use your cooldowns and oGCD abilities on any healer (WHM included) to manage your MP while keeping the party up. It's not like WHM's have a stronger mp regen tick or anything, it's all just a combination of oGCDs and CDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
If someone sat on CDs on WHM the way you advocate for sitting on them for AST I bet they would see some MP issues as well... because they wouldn't be managing their MP.
At the end of the day if you want to feel like you have near-infinite MP play WHM. If you want the utility of cards play AST. You don't get both.
I love a couple AST mains on this forum but some of y'all are just greedy. -
10-07-2017, 11:01 PMSnow_PrincessIt depends .. if you are talking about a 2 healer setup and need to mana shift an ast, who is using CDs and such, it means they are HARD CARRYING and you should be doing that regardless. (or people are dying repeatedly) I also did run a DF once where a whm never used assize, so yeah it is CD management. I been in many situations where I am the only one raising people, sometimes the one doing most of the healing + raises while the other healer is being a DPS bot mostly.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
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10-07-2017, 11:28 PMCeneraeEverything that restores mana for a healer has a cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
Assize and Thin Air for WHM have cooldowns.
Aetherflow has a cooldown, and by extension, so does energy drain
Lightspeed has a cooldown, as does Ewer since it's locked behind draw/sleeve draw.
Now, I don't raid savage (but you already had a reply from a savage raiding AST), but the only times I feel pinched for mana is when I'm going Gravity trigger happy, or if my group is derping and I have to resurrect several people over the course of a fight. Lucid Dreaming plus Celestial Opposition gives you such a huge amount of mp back that I've never had problems, and that's completely ignoring the existence of Ewer.
And this is coming from the point of view of someone who can and will constantly cast Aspected Helios in Nocturnal sect in 8 man content just to ensure we have a bubble shield for every big aoe, even though we don't really need them. You can't judge a job's mana management by how often you're mana shifting them as a DPS, because all that shows is which healer is actually casting spells and which one is sitting there twiddling their thumbs (for example: any healer that queues into o2 normal and is not of the 'I should DPS' persuasion)
Don't think of your cooldowns as tools of last resort. They're tools to be used, same as every other cooldown in the game. If you're not making full use of your tools, then you're not making full use of the class. I would generally consider AST to not have the same sort of mana tools as WHM (who have absurdly cheap regens, and Thin Air to save absolutely massive amounts of mana), but it's hardly suffering. Feel bad instead for the SCH, because while they have free fairy healing, they only have Aetherflow to recover mana with outside of the shared tool of Lucid Dreaming, unless they want to burn charges on Energy Drain (which means less uses of their most important spells). -
10-08-2017, 12:35 AMKDSilver
I think everyone alreary told you what's wrong.
If you have problem with your mana management, it doesn't come from mp cost but what your doing and how you use your spells.
If you're overhealing, casting a lot of unecessary heals, don't use lightspeed, largess and couple celestial opposition with lucid dreaming, then that's explain a lot of things.
You should try to watch and read some guide.
But Astrologian right now really has no issue with mana.
And even if you have to raise, you still have ewer.
"Lightspeed is an emergency button" => it's not.
Nothing is an emergcy button on healers. If you see your spells like this, you'll have trouble healing.
Healing is like tanking or dpsing. Nothing is being left "just i case", but you have to burn it, couple some and make like a "rotation" of cooldown.
Lightspeed is one of those astrologian skill you use for mana management as well, when you have to make a lot of aoe heals. -
10-08-2017, 01:13 AMYeolAST actually has lower MP cost on healing spells than WHM and SCH. If they make AST MP recovery any better or reduce MP cost, the job will be broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
The other two jobs have alternative ways to recover MP because they spend alot to begin with.
Any healer will run into MP issues if party members are taking unnecessary damage and dying a lot. Let's not forget overhealing as well. -
10-08-2017, 01:28 AMGhishlain
AST already gains a passive MP cost reduction on their Benefic (20%), Benefic II (10%), and Helios (10%). The healing spells that are more expensive are Aspected Benefic and Aspected Helios - neither of which you should be spamming. Also AST has the strongest oGCD AoE heal in the game on a 60s CD in the form of Earthly Star and Essential Dignity is on a 45s cooldown and is basically as powerful as Tetragrammaton which is a 60s CD.
While the AST kit does indeed have the lowest MP regeneration kit of the three healers at this time, they also have quite a few tools at their disposal to use less MP too. Just play smarter and make sure you aren't overheal often as that just proves to be a huge waste of MP.
[edit]
Three Lilies grants a 20% CDR on Assize, thus increasing the amount of MP restored per minute by about 25% (Assize with CD of 48s means you get 1.25 Assize every minute). For me at 18,726MP this means I get an additional 468MP / minute if I burn 3 GCDs spending Cures to generate three Lilies (which has the potential to overheal) and costs me 1,800MP. I also lose three GCDs worth of DPS (750+ potency) to do this. To me that's not worth the trade off to get Assize off CD faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
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10-08-2017, 01:40 AMBillyKaplanBelatedly, these are exactly the two spells this thread was about, not the kit as a whole. And spamming is relative to a situation. I get this much more on Nocturnal AST, admittedly, as shields need more maintenance than regens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghishlain
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10-08-2017, 01:50 AMGhishlainYou shouldn't be reapplying shields once they fall off and focused more on your more MP efficient healing spells. Benefic II is approximately 24% more efficient in a potency/MP cost and the only reason you should be applying Aspected Benefic shields over Benefic II is to either ensure a tank buster doesn't wipe your tank off the planet or if you don't think your Benefic II will finish casting before a raid buster goes out. One could make the argument that the instant nature of Aspected Benefic allows for less GCD clipping for abilities but I feel that's a different topic of discussion too.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
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10-08-2017, 03:07 AMKaivaCI tend to main as a Noct AST and I echo many of the sentiments that other users have said. MP management is only a problem if you're spamming Gravity, constantly throwing out AOE heals when it's not necessary, and waiting until you're dangerously low on MP before using LD. I've never thought about using Celestial Oppression to extend buffs...and I have not had MP issues. Even when I die, I can easily throw up my LD, or I wait it out and do what i can until it's available. The problem I'm seeing is that perhaps you don't plan it out. AST is not so much RNG as it is that you have to think ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
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10-08-2017, 03:51 AMGalaktica
As a SCH main, this thread triggers me so much.
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10-08-2017, 04:05 AMMoroMurasakiYou have my sympathy Madam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaktica
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10-08-2017, 04:08 AMKDSilver
You never "spam" aspected helios or aspected benefic.
Shield are meant to be used on specific situation like incoming aoe damaged or tank buster/high hit
The key is to memorize when those damage are coming to put the shield before so that they absorb damage.After this, there's helios and earhly star to heal what the shield didn't absorb (or benefic and essential dignity in single target)
There's also collective uncounscious to shield more.
putting a shield everytime it's fading will indeed make you run low on mana very quickly.
In any case, you have now multiple reason for why it's not necessary to reduce their mp cost since a lot of people gave you tips to have a better mana management.