Discipline of the Land reform

Introduction

While the current Discipline of the Land activities are enjoyable, it feels like they are missing something. I understand it is not the goal anymore to make the Discipline of the Land and Hand viable disciplines to experience world's story, however they are still very important Disciplines for the economy of Eorzea and offer a refreshing change of pace for the casual adventurer.

The reform of the Discipline of the Land I am proposing aims to bring more depth and freedom to the current Discipline of the Land activities and introduce a few more activities as well. Furthermore, my reform aims to make us of the action bar for the gathering activities, with a complete set of 15 actions and 10 traits (+10 cross-class actions).

Another important change in my Discipline of the Land reform is the change of locations where gathering activities can be performed. Instead of being limited to gathering nodes (indicated with lights and sparkles), all gathering activities can be performed near any appropriate game resource (tree, pond, cave wall, etc). The gathering nodes will change function to being gathering locations holding rare items.

As a general rule, actions performed outside gathering activities will require MP to be performed and/or be restricted with a timer; actions performed during gathering activities will require TP and be restricted to a single use per gathering. TP is earned by performing standard actions during gathering.

Gathering locations

Normal resources of Eorzea

Gathering activities performed at normal resources of Eorzea are rewarded with common items of the proper type. It is possible to acquire HQ items but at a lower rate.

For the botanist, these normal resources are trees, herbs and plants in general.
For the miner, these normal resources are cave walls, cliff sides and rocky materials in general.
For the fisherman, these normal resources are oceans, rivers, ponds and other bodies of water in general.

*In order to limit the possible locations of mining activities, it is possible to introduce ore veins or exposed ores. (see picture below)

http://i.imgur.com/GIlGR.jpg

Sparkling resources of Eorzea

Sparkling elements of Eorzea are what we are used to, they are normal resources with sparkling lights on them. The sparkling resources appear in rarely and require the assistance of Discipline of the Land special activity to increase their occurrence.

Gathering activities performed at sparkling resources of Eorzea are rewarded with rare items of the proper type. It is possible to acquire HQ items but at a lower rate.
Another possibility of the sparkling resources, instead of yielding rare items, they could only yield HQ items both common and rare. While normal resources would yield only normal common and normal rare items.

Gathering activities

Botanist

Logging
Logging is performed on any tree of the proper size with the hatchet.

At the beginning of the logging activity, 3 to 5 items are hidden at different locations in the notch bar. The notch bar starts with the pointer in the middle and is always displayed.
Here is the notch bar, it increases or decreases according to the result of the chop action:
http://i.imgur.com/izzeN.png

The chop action has a cursor that oscillate up and down. Here is the chop action with the stamina bar (remainder bar), colours were added for better clarity with my explanations:
http://i.imgur.com/Kz9YM.png

When the cursor of the chop action stops in the green area, the notch bar's pointer stays at the same level and a successful hit is counted at that location on the notch bar (if an item is present at that level).
Stamina is depleted from the stamina bar.

When the cursor of the chop action stops in the blue or orange area, the notch bar's pointer move up or down accordingly and a successful hit is counted at that NEW level on the notch bar (if an item is present at that NEW level).
Stamina is depleted from the stamina bar.
The more in the blue or orange the cursor of the chop action is, the more the notch bar's pointer move up or down.

If no item is present at the level of a hit on the notch bar, not successful hit is counted toward any item and stamina is depleted anyway.

When enough successful hit are accumulated on an item of the notch bar, the player is rewarded with that item. The gathering activity then cease or continue for the remaining items (this is left at the discretion of the developers).

When the stamina bar reaches 0, the gathering activity ceases.

Harvesting
Harvesting is performed on tall grass, patches of flowers and small plants with the scythe.

<coming soon or kept automated?>

Mending
Mending is performed on broken trees, fallen logs and other damaged plants.

<coming soon>

Miner

Mining
Mining is performed on any cliff side or exposed ore and ore veins.

At the beginning of the mining activity, 3 to 5 items are hidden at different locations in the exposed ore bar. The exposed ore bar starts with the pointer at the top and is always displayed.
Here is the exposed ore bar, it decreases according to the result of the strike action:
http://i.imgur.com/6dMcc.png

The strike action has a circle that oscillate in and out. Here is the strike action with the stamina bar (remainder bar), colours were added for better clarity with my explanations:
http://i.imgur.com/JF3G2.png

When the circle of the strike action stops in the green area, the exposed ore bar's pointer stays at the same level and a successful hit is counted at that location on the exposed ore bar (if an item is present at that level).
Stamina is depleted from the stamina bar.

When the circle of the strike action stops further AWAY of the green area, if no items are present at that level, the exposed ore bar's pointer move down accordingly and a successful hit is counted at that NEW level on the exposed ore bar (if an item is present at that NEW level). However, if an item was present at that level, the exposed ore bar's pointer does NOT move down and damage is given to the item. When the item receive enough damage it breaks and the exposed ore bar's pointer can move down.
Stamina is depleted from the stamina bar.
The further away the strike action's circle is from the green area, the more the exposed ore bar's pointer move down and/or damage is given to an item.

If no item is present at the level of a hit on the exposed ore bar, not successful hit is counted toward any item and stamina is depleted anyway.

When enough successful hit are accumulated on an item of the exposed ore bar, the player is rewarded with that item. The gathering activity then cease or continue for the remaining items (this is left at the discretion of the developers).

When the stamina bar reaches 0, the gathering activity ceases.

Quarrying
Quarrying is performed on cave walls with the sledgehammer.

<coming soon or kept automated?>

Surveying

<coming soon>

Fisherman

Fishing
Fishing is performed in seas, ponds, rivers and other bodies of water with sufficient depth.

At the beginning of the fishing activity, 3 to 5 fishes are hidden at different locations in the depth bar. The depth bar starts with the pointer at the top and is always displayed.
Here is the depth bar, it decreases over time and increases with a player's action:
http://i.imgur.com/Cfenk.png

The jig action has a cursor that moves left and/or right. Here is the jig action with the stamina bar (remainder bar), colours were added for better clarity with my explanations:
http://i.imgur.com/DKqiQ.png

The pointer decreases on the depth bar until a fish bites. The player can also reel in the line to have the pointer increases on the depth bar. Every time the pointer on the depth bar reaches the level of a fish, the fish has a chance to bite.

When a fish has bit, the cursor of the jig action moves either left or right to stay off the centre (like a fish pulling on a fishing rod). The player has to steer in the opposite direction in order to bring the cursor in the centre. Whenever the cursor is in the centre, the player can reel in the line and attempt to catch the fish. Each successful attempt in the centre reduced the fish's stamina, when the fish's stamina is completely depleted the fish is caught.
Player's stamina is depleted from the stamina bar with every attempt to reel in the line.

When the stamina bar reaches 0, the gathering activity ceases.

Spearfishing
Spearfishing is performed in shallow water, near big rocks and rotting logs with the gig.

<coming soon or kept automated?>

???

<coming soon>

Actions and traits
As a general rule, actions performed outside gathering activities will require MP to be performed and/or be restricted with a timer; actions performed during gathering activities will require TP and be restricted to a single use per gathering. TP is earned by performing standard actions during gathering.

Actions written in purple are performed outside gathering activities.
Actions with * are cross-class actions.

Active mode

Active mode is used for battles defensively. The character attacks with his primary tool for low damage input (enough damage to defeat enemies 5 levels and lower of the character's level). There is no combo that can be performed during battles by the Discipline of the Land. The action Throw Dirt allows to stun an enemy and flee.

Botanist attack with the hatchet, miner attack with the pickaxe and fisher attack by whipping with the fishing rod.
Players can also enter in active mode to hold their primary tool in hand and show off (luminary tools!).

Botanist

Action

• Chop: Normal logging action. TP is gained with every hit.
• Harvest: Begin automated harvesting.
• Broad Chop: Logging action. Increases the successful zone (green area), but the item is gathered slower with a successful hit. TP is gained with every hit.
• Powerful Chop: Logging action. Increases chance of getting the item in fewer hits, but the successful zone (green area) is reduced. TP is gained with every hit.
• Arbor Call: Indicate the direction and distance of the closest sparkling resource. Cost MP.
• Throw Dirt: Stuns an engaged enemy.
• Fade*: Enemies cannot detect you by sight (character's level + 10 = maximum enemy level). Cost MP.
• Output*: Increases the amount of times a character can gather at a single point by 2. TP cost.
• Find Target*: Display on the notch bar (exposed ore bar or depth bar) a random item's level on the bar.
• <to be determined>
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Traits

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Miner


Actions

• Strike: Normal mining action. TP is gained with every hit.
• Quarry: Begin automated quarrying.
• Vigorous Strike: Mining action. Increases chance of getting the item in fewer hits or damage dealt to an item but the successful zone (green area) is reduced. TP is gained with every hit.
• Gentle Strike: Mining action. Increases the successful zone (green area), but the item is gathered slower with a successful hit and less damage is dealt to the item on unsuccessful hit. TP is gained with every hit.
• Lay of the Land: Indicate the direction and distance of the closest sparkling resource. Cost MP.
• Throw Dirt: Stuns an engaged enemy.
• Sneak*: Enemies cannot detect you by sound (character's level + 10 = maximum enemy level). Cost MP.
• Gathering*: Reduces the depletion rate of the Stamina gauge for the next 2 actions. TP cost.
• Aim*: Increases the successful zone (green area) for the next action. TP cost.
• <to be determined>
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Traits

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Fisher


Actions

• Reel in: Normal fishing action. TP is gained with every reeling while a fish is hooked. Also increases the depth bar's pointer level if performed while no fish is hooked.
• Spearfishing: Begin automated spearfishing.
• Forceful reeling: Fishing action. Increases chance of getting the fish but the successful zone (center area) is reduced (or break the line). TP is gained with every hit.
• Dexterous reeling: Fishing action. Increases the successful zone (center area), but the fish's stamina is depleted more slowly. TP is gained with every hit.
• Gulleye: Indicate the direction and distance of the closest sparkling resource. Cost MP.
• Throw Dirt: Stuns an engaged enemy.
• Deodorize*: Enemies disengage from combat after 1 hit, you are an unattractive prey (character's level + 10 = maximum enemy level). Cost MP.
• Perception*: Increases a player's chance to find higher-quality items. Cost TP.
• Stamina boost*: Recover a fixed amount of stamina. Cost TP.
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Traits

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Possible traits include more chances to find certain shards type, boost of running speed when low on health, display of gathering locations on the main map, etc.

I'm in support of any improvements to gathering.

Any opinion on my long ago thread? http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...thering-System

I think these suggestion are really well thought out and support it 100%, can onlyhope that a community dev passes it on in detail to the devs.

One thing I would like to see changed is allowing the player to having complete control over the mini game.

http://i.imgur.com/JF3G2.png

Ie instead of the circle ossilating back and forth (image above) a player should have control to move the circle in and out using the left and right D-pad or arrows leys, then pressing the X button and enter to confirm. (I find too often that latency can cause issues with the current system)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I think these suggestion are really well thought out and support it 100%, can onlyhope that a community dev passes it on in detail to the devs.

One thing I would like to see changed is allowing the player to having complete control over the mini game.

http://i.imgur.com/JF3G2.png

Ie instead of the circle ossilating back and forth (image above) a player should have control to move the circle in and out using the left and right D-pad or arrows leys, then pressing the X button and enter to confirm. (I find too often that latency can cause issues with the current system)

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I thought so too, but then it wouldn't be so challenging.
I think it would require a complete change of mini-game to enable complete control. Something like a puzzle with no timer. The new activities I will be proposing (Mending, surveying and something for fishing) will include complete control puzzle-like mini-games. That way, we can have both in the game for different activity! Also, coming with the new servers in 2.0, latency shouldn't be that much of a problem anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nakiamiie

Also, coming with the new servers in 2.0, latency shouldn't be that much of a problem anymore.

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Can only hope.

Gathering resources nodes

Regular resources

Mining
http://i.imgur.com/nOEAp.jpg

Alternatively, resources could be mined from points like these:
screenshot 1
screenshot 2

Quarrying
<no screenshot, meanwhile try imagining a cave wall>

Botanist
<no screenshot, meanwhile try imagining a tree>

Harvesting
http://i.imgur.com/n2Aoe.jpg

Alternatively, resources could be harvested from points like these:
screenshot 1
screenshot 2

Fishing
(deep water -- river, lake, sea)
http://i.imgur.com/GrQRs.jpg

Spearfishing
Shallow water (screenshot)
Rotten log (screenshot)

Other
Alternative resources for more activities:
Rubbles (screenshot)
Fruit bushes (screenshot)
Frog (screenshot)
...and much much more! Eorzea is filled with resources that could become interactive.

Gathering nodes (for rare resources -- found scarcely)

These our traditional gathering nodes, here are some examples as a reminder:
Glowing tree (logging)
Sparkling Cliff (mining)
Blinding cave wall (quarrying)

I can tell a lot of effort was put in and it was really thought out well. But I don't support it simply because this is too in depth for me personally. All I want to do when I go out and gather is get some materials to sell or craft with. What you're suggesting, to me at least, seems like it requires a lot more input and strategy to harvest the same items that I can knock out with one hit right now. While I agree DoL does need some reforms (Kings yield for one allowing multiple items to be harvested when normally you can only get one from cobalt/electrum/etc) I don't think the foundation of the mini game needs to be changed. Not at least while DoH needs far more work put into it than DoL does. Also I like the simplicity of DoL right now to break away from the rest of the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CrstyCaptin

I can tell a lot of effort was put in and it was really thought out well. But I don't support it simply because this is too in depth for me personally. All I want to do when I go out and gather is get some materials to sell or craft with. What you're suggesting, to me at least, seems like it requires a lot more input and strategy to harvest the same items that I can knock out with one hit right now. While I agree DoL does need some reforms (Kings yield for one allowing multiple items to be harvested when normally you can only get one from cobalt/electrum/etc) I don't think the foundation of the mini game needs to be changed. Not at least while DoH needs far more work put into it than DoL does. Also I like the simplicity of DoL right now to break away from the rest of the game.

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I have to agree here. I'm sure the OP put a lot of time and thought into this, but reading it over it seems far too similar to the crafting jobs with a normal swing, a "more progress but more risk" swing, and a "more quality but more risk" swing, which is a system that admittedly doesn't work in its current iteration and everyone just spams enter unless they're really focusing on HQ results. The DoL definitely need some balancing tweaks and some reworks (like how we have a stat and skill that supposedly increases yield, but most important items are hard capped at a single yield, wth is that about?), but IMO the DoH reworks need to be done *first* so they know what items these nodes should actually be yielding and not have to go back and do it all over again.

Gathering is a part of MMOs that is a repetitive grind by design, there really isn't any way around that. The current system keeps it interactive, but if you make it too complex it becomes a chore that no one is interested in. When my girlfriend whos never played FFXIV walks up and asks "how does that little mining circle thinger work," if it takes more than five minutes to explain I would consider there to be some extremely fundamental flaws with the system. A complex system that takes fifteen minutes to mine a single node for 8 items just wouldn't be practically fun for the majority of the people playing.

I like the current system mechanically, it's just the yields and item tables that need reform.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lerend

I have to agree here. I'm sure the OP put a lot of time and thought into this, but reading it over it seems far too similar to the crafting jobs with a normal swing, a "more progress but more risk" swing, and a "more quality but more risk" swing, which is a system that admittedly doesn't work in its current iteration and everyone just spams enter unless they're really focusing on HQ results. The DoL definitely need some balancing tweaks and some reworks (like how we have a stat and skill that supposedly increases yield, but most important items are hard capped at a single yield, wth is that about?), but IMO the DoH reworks need to be done *first* so they know what items these nodes should actually be yielding and not have to go back and do it all over again.

Gathering is a part of MMOs that is a repetitive grind by design, there really isn't any way around that. The current system keeps it interactive, but if you make it too complex it becomes a chore that no one is interested in. When my girlfriend whos never played FFXIV walks up and asks "how does that little mining circle thinger work," if it takes more than five minutes to explain I would consider there to be some extremely fundamental flaws with the system. A complex system that takes fifteen minutes to mine a single node for 8 items just wouldn't be practically fun for the majority of the people playing.

I like the current system mechanically, it's just the yields and item tables that need reform.

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Hello!

Thanks you CrstyCaptin and Lerend for the feedback.
I'd like to comment on your feedback.

First and foremost, I agree on the fact that many of us just go out there to quickly gather materials without much thoughts.
The changes proposed are not perfect and can be refined. However, I believe they still allow for quick gathering of items.
Here is how I see it:

1) Common items can be gathered from any resource point (a tree, for example) on the map instead of being limited to glowing nodes. This allows people to quickly engage in the gathering activity while extended activities in the area will still force the player to wander around to find other resources once they are "depleted" for that player (or everyone).

2) The loot table of items that can be gathered in an area is the same for all resources in that area, just like it is in the current system. For example, all grade 1 trees in the Black Shroud yield the same items. Players only need to have a general idea of where they can get an item to acquire it.

3) In the current system, the players selects on the gauge bar which item he aims for and then hope it is that item the game has picked for this gathering session. In my changed system, the player skip this step and moves the gauge bar through his actions and will ALWAYS get the item aimed for. This is not slower, but more predictable. More common items will be found near the starting point of the gauge bar, while rarer or more difficult items will be farther. Thus, it requires slightly more time to get rarer/tougher items just as it requires slightly more time to actually stumble on that item with the current system.
The difference lies with predictability. In the system I am proposing you can always get the item you want with a little skill.

It is not difficult to explain either, it's just a different explanation for each of the DoL, but the basics are the same. Strike in the center and you get the item you are currently aiming for.

As for the «a "more progress but more risk" swing, and a "more quality but more risk" swing», yes it is something I copied from the current Discipline of the Hand. I believe it can apply to DoL very well, but it can be changed. I tried to re-use as much as possible of the content currently in the game, but if the devs prefer to go from scratch, many things can be changed and improved, obviously.

Also, harvesting, quarrying and spearfishing would remain automated. I got the comment from some of my friends as well, they prefer automated gathering activities. Then, we have those like me who enjoy playing mini-games, that's why we need at least both.
Also, I am trying to figure 3 new activities for the three DoL that would bring random results, for those with a gambling side that don't like predictable results. My problem is, what will they be for? At first, I thought it would be great to have these new activities temporarily increase the number of glowing nodes in an area (glowing nodes hold either rare resources or high quality items in abundance in my new DoL), so people seeking rare/HQ items would not spend a lifetime looking for them. But now, I also think it could be something entirely new that is not currently in the game.

Unfortunately, I will not go into a detailed post about them at the moment. I am moving in another country in two weeks and I already have enough challenges to tackle as of now.

Hopefully this will help understanding my ideas more clearly.

On a semi-related note, I, too, believe that Discipline of the Hand need thorough overhaul. However, this post is about DoL, not DoH. Also, since I failed to come up with an amazing idea for a reform of DoH, I simply haven't posted about it. In addition to that, I believe the people working on the Discipline of the Hand and Land are two distinct teams within the devs, so working on one doesn't hinder progress on the other. Please, kind that in mind, no offence. :)

I will work on adapting my ideas for improved mini-games with this post in mind:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post534738

Also, I will introduce potential ideas for a Discipline of the Hand reform as well.
Please give me a few weeks since I'm moving to Japan very soon (and hopefully my computer don't suffer in the process, otherwise expect longer delays).

If you guys have more ideas, feel free to post them too. :D

I do like the proposed change for the nodes, running around in la noscea trying to find an active node is just painful at times.
I don't know if I want more in-depth actions though.

MP/TP as a restriction on gathering attempts wouldn't work too well imho and it would be too easy to bot with that method, too. Just stand on one point and gather untill no mp left -> sit down -> stand up and continue gathering.

Which means they would have to put more points (sparkling or not) into maps, which would be too many (performance-wise) in case of Botanists. They'd have to put a gathering node into each patch of grass....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

I do like the proposed change for the nodes, running around in la noscea trying to find an active node is just painful at times.
I don't know if I want more in-depth actions though.

MP/TP as a restriction on gathering attempts wouldn't work too well imho and it would be too easy to bot with that method, too. Just stand on one point and gather untill no mp left -> sit down -> stand up and continue gathering.

Which means they would have to put more points (sparkling or not) into maps, which would be too many (performance-wise) in case of Botanists. They'd have to put a gathering node into each patch of grass....

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Actually, MP/TP wouldn't be the restriction to limit the gathering at one point. It would be like it currently is: after X items gathered, you need to walk someplace else. Say, Y malms away from the previous point (Y is lower as you get higher levels VS the grade of the area).

Also, there will always be botting unless we do make the mini-games challenging, in-depth and need to think through, like a puzzle.

Good ideas guys. I do often wonder why dol/doh have mp but don't use it. I say make a use for mp on those classes or remove them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nakiamiie

Actually, MP/TP wouldn't be the restriction to limit the gathering at one point. It would be like it currently is: after X items gathered, you need to walk someplace else. Say, Y malms away from the previous point (Y is lower as you get higher levels VS the grade of the area).

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Yes, but does it make sense to do the limiting with TP/MP? It would mean they'd have to change the MP regen rules for DoL to only start regenerating while.... moving, I guess?

It makes more sense to keep the nodes in that case.

The nodes for miner/fsh can be implemented even with your system, and i do like the ore suggestion, but I don't really see how they can make gathering.. unless they do it so you can only gather certain grass types i guess.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Yes, but does it make sense to do the limiting with TP/MP? It would mean they'd have to change the MP regen rules for DoL to only start regenerating while.... moving, I guess?

It makes more sense to keep the nodes in that case.

The nodes for miner/fsh can be implemented even with your system, and i do like the ore suggestion, but I don't really see how they can make gathering.. unless they do it so you can only gather certain grass types i guess.

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For the MP, it's mostly to prevent spamming. You can spam it a few times but then have to wait for the MP to regen. :)
As for TP, it lowers when you get outside gathering activity and is generated by the gathering activity, no problem here (just like TP in combat).

I think you meant harvesting? Harvesting could only be performed at big patch of tall grass/herbs. And since you'd have to move Y malms away once you finish the number of attempts, the closer patch are inaccessible even though there are many of them. Unless, of course, the character is high level enough that Y malms away means only a few steps.

That way, higher level characters can remain in the same area longer to gather ingredients but no experience points. However, lower level characters have to move around a lot more, because they are inexperienced with higher grades of resources (just like any beginner would walk past something valuable if it's not obvious). It also makes higher level resources less attractive to lower level gatherers since they have to move much farther for the next one (prevents everyone from simply going for the highest resources nodes at any level).

No objections there, sounds good to me.