Are FFXIV tanks just players who "couldn't hack it as a DPS"?

Seen this claimed a few times about FFXIV tanking. What are your personal thoughts on the skill required to be a tank in FFXIV? Do you think it's more or less than other competing MMOs? What about past MMOs(or past expansions of other MMOs)?

Dunno man, from what I've seen most of the people complaining about how tanking is too easy since you can tank everything in dps stance haven't actually done that, heck some of them haven't even cleared the relevant contents.

Are you? Because most of the times I do more DPS than dps

When it comes to the difficulty of being a tank in FFXIV, I think it stands for itself that most tanks are not concerned about how to become a better tank, but rather how to become a better DPS.

Most DPS players couldn't hack it as DPS either, speaking as someone play as DPS, Tank, and occasionally healer.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

When it comes to the difficulty of being a tank in FFXIV, I think it stands for itself that most tanks are not concerned about how to become a better tank, but rather how to become a better DPS.

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You learn the fight mechanics, you learn when to appropriately pop defensive cds, you kill the boss. All that is left is to push out as much as dps as possible.

Can you tell me what did you mean by 'better tank'?

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Originally Posted by Kothos

Are you? Because most of the times I do more DPS than dps

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No need to get defensive, I'm just curious.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

When it comes to the difficulty of being a tank in FFXIV, I think it stands for itself that most tanks are not concerned about how to become a better tank, but rather how to become a better DPS.

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Same with healers though, this game is all about DPS. Moreso than any other.

The ideal situation is if they don't need to heal at all and can reduce the healing to only off global cds.

You can't blame either though because this is how this game is pretty much designed, even though it's not as tight with the DPS check as it was in Gordias for example it is still pretty tight in harder content so the mentality to DPS sticks to you at some point.
Unless they force tanks in tank stance and reduce healers damage output outside of solo content drasticly this won't change.

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Originally Posted by zipzo

Seen this claimed a few times about FFXIV tanking. What are your personal thoughts on the skill required to be a tank in FFXIV? Do you think it's more or less than other competing MMOs? What about past MMOs(or past expansions of other MMOs)?

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Tanking is neither easier nor more difficult than being a DPS (or healer). In both cases it is not all that difficult to do an "okay" job, while performing at the top requires considerable skill. This is no different in FFXIV compared to most other MMOs.

Difference is that when a tank performs badly or makes a mistake it is immediately obvious to everyone else in the party. When a DPS performs badly, usually nobody notices.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

You can't blame either though because this is how this game is pretty much designed, [...]

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That is the point. The way the game is designed, tanking and healing as such are largely trivial, which means most of the time, you have nothing left to improve on other than DPS. To a degree, that's innate to the roles themselves, due to them being artificial and thus fixed in usefulness, but FFXIV takes it up to eleven by overpowering both out the wazoo.

As a result, being a tank/healer is easy, very easy in fact - the hard part comes when you're trying to be a DPS as well. That part is as hard as mastering any other DPS. Tanking and healing as such? Yeah no.

Nah, people who DPS are either too lazy to heal or too scared to tank 😂. Jokes aside, I almost feel Tanks and Healers have the more difficult roles to be honest. When queuing with a PUG group, a DPS can just do what they always do, and optimal play of class is unaffected. Healers rely on their tanks performance, and gear level, as well as the DPS dodging mechanics, thus it's a different experience everytime. Same with tanks, need to know how good healers gear is, how well they are at managing MP and CDs, are DPS using diversion, is the ninja using shirk? All of these things affect the way you play.

It's hard to say atm. in HW DPS roles were pretty harsh.
But now, I tend to feel 10 times more relaxed as a DPS than as a tank. (also nice that most mechanics are targeting tanks/healers instead, making DPSing easier again.)
So to me DPSing feels fine, unless I actually panic, which is less likely, as the spot light isnt on me anymore.
But when I jump on a tank, the panic makes me feel like its harder, even if im doing fine, or content ive already cleared as a DPS.
(granted im super rusty at tanking now, since ive been sticking to DPS this patch, as DRK isnt as fun anymore, and Im too lazy to get PLD and WAR up to see if they feel any better)

Its a different set of skills.

DPS in this game is primarily performing your rotation, and adjust the nuances of the rotation for the fight at hand while dealing with mechanics.
Tanks do the same, but their rotation is less complex. To replace that complexity they have enmity, mob positioning and cooldown management. Greater pressure as errors have greater impact.
Healers do the same, but have the least complex dps system. To replace that complexity they have to manage all the HP bars. Greatest pressure as errors essentially kill anyone.

Is managing a more complex rotation 'easier' than managing HP bars? Are both of those 'easier' than mob positioning, CD management, enmity? Depends on what you find easy.

Im a tank (and geographer). I find mob positioning to be incredibly easy, but I also find position based mechanics extremely easy. I find reactive twitchy things very challenging thus I find healers very challenging and DPS with lots of OGCDs and speed buffs harder than the 'slower' ones. But I don't find the 'length' of a rotation challenging. My own raid group has people the opposite. They cant do spatial things to save their life (literally) but are far better at quick execution.

Example: I have a very hard time using my charge to ignore the knockback in delta savage 4 with precise timing. But I waltz through the black hole doom field without ever killing myself or others. Others in my group never miss the knockback, but struggle to 'find space' in the black holes to do their stuff that I see very easily. People are different.

Please don't try to make some fight thread about what job is EZ mode. They focus on different aspects of play. Some people excel at specific aspects and less at others. Playing a job that aligns with your personal strengths makes a class 'EZ'. Playing one that trends away from your personal strengths is makes it harder. They are just different.

I tank out of boredom and be well rounded for any situation. I personally prefer to DPS yet sometimes if I want to get things done right I need to tank. -.- I think it's the opposite Tanks that can't make the cut become DPS. Out of desperation of queue go back to tanking at times.

Not in the slightest, DPS have to worry about how to maximize their damage, but tanks do that on top of dodging more aoe, cooldown management for tankbusters and the like, proper placement of the enemy, enmity management when dealing with crowds, and taking responsiblity for how large the pulls should be.

It's no coincidence that drunk tanking is such a thing.

I think a lot of the DPS jobs are very different. For example, I think playing the tanks at the highest level possible in Omega Savage is more difficult than playing easier DPS jobs like Monk or Bard. But the more punishing DPS jobs like Summoner are more difficult to play at the same top tier level of performance.

Tank "dps rotations" are simpler than any DPS job, yet still require a lot of skill and nuance to be at that top 5%.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Tanking is neither easier nor more difficult than being a DPS (or healer). In both cases it is not all that difficult to do an "okay" job, while performing at the top requires considerable skill. This is no different in FFXIV compared to most other MMOs.

Difference is that when a tank performs badly or makes a mistake it is immediately obvious to everyone else in the party. When a DPS performs badly, usually nobody notices.

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I would have to disagree with the statement that tanking or healing is no more difficult than DPS. If you're a tank stance tenacity tank, then sure; you're in easy mode and feels super simple to tank. When you're in DPS stance in savage content with everyone pushing DPS and pushing the limits on healer CD's and tank mitigation CDs while handling the same mechanics as DPS, not missing a GCD during those mechanics; hitting your tank swaps (thank god for shirk!) and moving/positioning the boss for the upcoming mechanics while still keeping it in range for your mele (eg not sprinting across the room with the boss leaving your mele to miss a GCD) you're now pushing the limits on tanking. When a tank or healer mess up, count on a wipe. When a DPS messes up, pick 'em up in a minute (as long as they didn't kill a healer or tank when they messed up). If you're talking about tanking in light party, then bring a SMN with titan and have titan tank the run.... Tanking in LP dungeons is only as hard as someone holding aggro while sprinting through collecting mobs and hitting their CDs appropriately.

Tanking used to be a Joke way back then when almost everything was tank and spank and just blowing a cooldown here and there. Nowdays it's like playing a DPS that has way more mechanics to deal with on top of it.

If we take current content into consideration then Healers/Tanks have a much harder job than dps right now. Do note, I'm talking about the current endgame.

Just take a look at all the stuff tanks and healers have to look out for in O4S, especially tanks. You have several different types of tankbusters, constant aggro resets and on top of that a lot of raid damage going out. There is a lot of aggro and cooldown management going on, so no, you can't just yolo it in dps stance unless you know what you're doing.

A lot of people are under the assumption that every tank can just run around in dps stance all the time. That's not how it works at all. If you're in dps stance and you're not pressing the right cooldowns at the right time O4S will wreck your shit.

DPS be boring.

https://i.imgur.com/jvhvUa1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/A6B5jrR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/J7vn1Uj.jpg

Please don't be a dps oriented tank that AVOIDS popping cds while in dps stance. Please don't just pop a cd for tank busters. You can use them between tank busters. If youre a good tank you will do high damage with high mitigation. Please support the party with your tool kit. Popping ogcds between weapon skills, will not lower your dps.

Thank you.

That just hurts on the inside to read :(

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Originally Posted by Kothos

Are you? Because most of the times I do more DPS than dps

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The sad thing is I've also been doing this on warrior with 6+ fell cleaves, and I actually laugh at how bad DPS are in this game still in stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Playing one that trends away from your personal strengths is makes it harder. They are just different.

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So true. On healer I can heal comfortably, dps, keep an eye on boss casts, keep track of tank buffs, do mechanics, make calls on voice and rescue players quite decently. But when I'm on my dps I tunnel vision so bad I can't even keep track of the basic boss casts/mechanics let alone follow what other players are up to. And I'm not even doing good dps despite getting healed through all the mechanics xD sigh.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

https://i.imgur.com/jvhvUa1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/A6B5jrR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/J7vn1Uj.jpg

Please don't be a dps oriented tank that AVOIDS popping cds while in dps stance. Please don't just pop a cd for tank busters. You can use them between tank busters. If youre a good tank you will do high damage with high mitigation. Please support the party with your tool kit. Popping ogcds between weapon skills, will not lower your dps.

Thank you.

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I hope you replaced this guy, this is a good example of a bad tank. Any group worth their salt would get rid of a guy like this and yes, your PLD should be using cool downs as off-tank, dummy.

That's just painful to read as someone who plays pld. Cover and intervention are really good in o1s. If you prepare 100 gauge before twinbolt you can pop rampart or sentinel, then sheltron and intervention for big mitigation on yourself and 20/30% extra mitigation on the main tank. Cover and rampart trivialize back to back wyrm tail dmg, and in some cases (at pull, and after first blaze) rampart lasts through the 2 wyrm tails and the following twinbolt.

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Originally Posted by Kothos

Are you? Because most of the times I do more DPS than dps

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Same. At least in non-savage lol.
I usually throw out a /congratulate to any dps that outparses me on my warrior. Even with four DPS it's usually only one or two...

Not defending the guy who only popped 4 CDs in O1S, but Cover + Hallowed? Really?

I see it as:
DPS that couldn't hack it play tanks.
Tanks that couldn't hack it play healers.
Healers that couldn't hack it play DPS.

(PS before someone gets their jimmies rustled.. this.. is.. a... JOKE.)

I couldn't hack at life so I play all three.

I'll admit, the idea of playing as a tank or healer does freak me out a bit. I'd be too afraid to mess up important jobs like that. I'm still doing my best just to keep up as a DPS player. That being said, anyone who plays those roles - especially those who play them well - are pretty impressive in my book.

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Originally Posted by zipzo

Seen this claimed a few times about FFXIV tanking. What are your personal thoughts on the skill required to be a tank in FFXIV? Do you think it's more or less than other competing MMOs? What about past MMOs(or past expansions of other MMOs)?

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As far as dungeons go its actually zero reason to play a dps as a main, the gameplay of a dps just isnt that much more amazing that Id waste hours just to get in dungeons as a dps. And as far as the harder content for me if I havve no parser as a dps then its pointless because I could see the big numbers like sam for instance Im doing 23k for the big hit skill.

But in reality If Im not doing the weaves of that other skill my dps would be poor, so to me I cant take dps serious without knowing my actual dps numbers. And Ive said before there is nothing that is like o wow dpsing is so much more amazing to me than tankin like the gameplay different isnt like o wow let me never tank again because playing dps is just so amazing I cant resist the gameplay. So to answer your question for me If I ever mained a dps se would have to put a parser in the game to let me know how I was reallly doing otherwise Id never know how I really was doing.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

As far as dungeons go its actually zero reason to play a dps as a main, the gameplay of a dps just isnt that much more amazing that Id waste hours just to get in dungeons as a dps. And as far as the harder content for me if I havve no parser as a dps then its pointless because I could see the big numbers like sam for instance Im doing 23k for the big hit skill.

But in reality If Im not doing the weaves of that other skill my dps would be poor, so to me I cant take dps serious without knowing my actual dps numbers. And Ive said before there is nothing that is like o wow dpsing is so much more amazing to me than tankin like the gameplay different isnt like o wow let me never tank again because playing dps is just so amazing I cant resist the gameplay. So to answer your question for me If I ever mained a dps se would have to put a parser in the game to let me know how I was reallly doing otherwise Id never know how I really was doing.

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I really can't understand what you said or what you intended to point.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

I really can't understand what you said or what you intended to point.

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I was simply saying that without a parser then dpsing isnt fun imo, and I was also sayin that there is no reason to suffer just to play dps in a dungeon or none raid or ex primal content.

As a tank main, I'm too stupid to play a dps to my personal standards in a savage raid. I dunno how my static's dpses do it, it's a lot of work. They say the same about me tanking, but I firmly believe that tanking is the easiest role at high level play.

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Originally Posted by MahoSenshi

Not defending the guy who only popped 4 CDs in O1S, but Cover + Hallowed? Really?

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I mean if its ZERO tank swaps... Why not use the most broken skill in the game (Hallowed ground), to essentially give your main tank 2 invulnerable CDs, giving your healers more time to DPS and allowing the main tank to get free mitigation. To not do it is just lazy on his part in my mind.

Weapon skill,
Cover during the OGCD,
Weapon Skill,
Hallowed during the OGCD...

Zero damage loss to the PLD. The core of the issue is tanks not using their tanking kit to help the group.

Hallowed and cover don't work together. You'll still take damage.

For O1S I save it for the Twinbolt after Charybdis so the healers won't even need to heal me.

I don't think that tanks are players who couldn't hack it as DPS; people play the same game differently and some roles just don't mesh with players' abilities. I was a main tank and raider in WoW for 10 years and I always felt like I had to be one step ahead in the game in terms of gear, as well as dungeon and raid knowledge, even for the newest content. I don't feel the pressure as much playing a WHM here (I'm way more casual now than I was in WoW), but I do need to know about boss mechanics to be the best healer I can be (and not die all over the place) and keep up with my ilvl. There are some moments where I'm internally (or externally) screaming, but it comes with the territory of staring at health bars all day.

This is the silliest thing I've heard in awhile. Of course not!

As Duckandcover writes, "people play the same game differently and some roles just don't mesh with players' abilities." People who think tanking is a no-brainer tend to have either not done the content or are much better than the average player at the role.

In addition, a lot of damage dealers underestimate how much they depend upon the tank's performance. While they're doing their damage and avoiding mechanics, they think the tank isn't doing as much work. The damage dealers overlook that the only reason they can focus on their rotations and whatnot is because the tank is making certain they have the space to do their thing!

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

This is the silliest thing I've heard in awhile. Of course not!

As Duckandcover writes, "people play the same game differently and some roles just don't mesh with players' abilities." People who think tanking is a no-brainer tend to have either not done the content or are much better than the average player at the role.

In addition, a lot of damage dealers underestimate how much they depend upon the tank's performance. While they're doing their damage and avoiding mechanics, they think the tank isn't doing as much work. The damage dealers overlook that the only reason they can focus on their rotations and whatnot is because the tank is making certain they have the space to do their thing!

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The question isn’t how much do you think DPS players appreciate the presence of a tank, it’s do you think they aren’t mechanically very difficult to play.

/popcorn.jpeg

I main tank because of the instaqueues. Tanking in FFXIV is pretty crap in general. In my other games, tanks can do so many clutch things in other games to turn an imminent wipe around. Some of all my most cherished raiding moments were from the experiences I had with those.

When most of your ability comes down to damage combo, threat combo, defense cooldown and a couple flashy utility buttons there's something inherently wrong with the role itself.

I really like how tanks are designed for Frontline tho just wish I could TBN everyone.