Minimum Ilvl Roulette

Heya.

Sometimes I miss doing some dungeons with more difficult challenge. I know there is the option to run the dungeon in minimum ilvl but sometimes is hard to find people to do it.

So, how about a Minimum Ilvl Roullete? For prizes, we could have the same amount of tombstone as Expert Roulette.

What do you think?

I think that'd be great. My friends aren't really into the "minimum ilvl" stuff, but I'd love to be able to do more content the way they were initially designed.

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Originally Posted by ItaruKarin

My friends aren't really into the "minimum ilvl" stuff, but I'd love to be able to do more content the way they were initially designed.

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Ironically, the devs have once stated that the item level they assume during the development of content is different than the minimum item level to enter it and from context it can be derived that they design it with a higher item level in mind than is needed to enter.

As for minimum item level roulette, honestly, I don't see it taking off unless you pump it full of rewards. Right now, it offers the same rewards as doing the content via DF/RF or unsynced, which means reward incentives cancel out and people can pick which way they do it purely by preference - with just about anyone and their mother preferring the easy way. Unless the rewards are strong enough to cancel out that preference, the roulette would be just as dead as any PF you put up for it.

It would be quite fun to do with friends for a change, at least, rather than just facerolling through the experts (which I already never do, because it's boring).

I have not had any trouble clearing dungeons as minimum ilv even though I'm mediocre (it's how my group of friends runs everything) but I have had some issues when members are below the minimum ilevel, which is not enforced in some cases, as people can be obliterated by mechanics that are clearly only meant to almost kill them and this leads to a sudden spike in difficulty - the last 3.x dungeon's final boss can be extra stressful this way without a shielding healer. It would be interesting to know which dungeon encounters, if any, are especially hard with minimum ilv set given that they won't necessarily be properly balanced.

It can be fun if you know the people, other than that 99% of the time you'll be running into a nightmare. A large portion of the playerbase struggles in dungeons even when 20-30 ilvls over it - it's just hard to notice because it's also easy to carry.

A feature best kept between friends.

I'd rather join a farm group that can't get past the first phase of mechanics for a straight hour than force myself to run an easy dungeon with a low iLv. Nooooooo thank you

Then maybe just a bonus feature through the DF to make playing with friends more fun/rewarding? If you run a roulette in Challenge Mode (name pending) then you get a little bonus to rewards, but it still uses up the daily allowance so you can't just farm all of your weekly tomes in one evening and stop playing for the week?

I just want the extra hard dungeon option they mentioned a few times before...

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Originally Posted by Serilda

Then maybe just a bonus feature through the DF to make playing with friends more fun/rewarding? If you run a roulette in Challenge Mode (name pending) then you get a little bonus to rewards, but it still uses up the daily allowance so you can't just farm all of your weekly tomes in one evening and stop playing for the week?

I just want the extra hard dungeon option they mentioned a few times before...

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I believe the extra hard dungeons you are speaking of is Yoshi saying he entertains the idea of Savage dungeons and will take it into consideration moving forward. I think WoW has dungeon difficulty scaling? Mythic+ maybe+

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Ironically, the devs have once stated that the item level they assume during the development of content is different than the minimum item level to enter it and from context it can be derived that they design it with a higher item level in mind than is needed to enter.

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I recall them mentioning about two years ago that they determined a DPS check based on assumed ilvl and then lower it by a nominal amount of 10% to 15%. I don't ever recall them stating that that min ilvl is below the developed ilvl they assumed for. Do you have a quote / URL for this? I'd be curious to read the article it came from. Thank you.

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On topic, I'd also be a fan of min ilvl roulette as having something like would be better than filtering through PF to look for a very specific niche. However, if it takes a while to develop I don't think it'd be worth the resources. At best, I imagine the pool of players who would wish to participate in such a roulette would be small.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

As for minimum item level roulette, honestly, I don't see it taking off unless you pump it full of rewards. Right now, it offers the same rewards as doing the content via DF/RF or unsynced, which means reward incentives cancel out and people can pick which way they do it purely by preference - with just about anyone and their mother preferring the easy way. Unless the rewards are strong enough to cancel out that preference, the roulette would be just as dead as any PF you put up for it.

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Not sure if this is referencing tomes, but you can’t accrue tomestones via unsynced runs unless someone has a bonus—and, at that point, you only get the bonus tome amount, not the full tome reward for duty completion. Experience-wise, obviously unsynced doesn’t provide you with any sort of experience.

I honestly wouldn’t mind something like this, as someone who does have interest in running content at minimum ilvl (specifically, Coil and other 8-man content). However, without proper incentives (and they would probably have to be hefty given how most people will choose the easy way to run content), people won’t do it. I think it would be a nice change to have it offer current capped tomes, because Expert Roulette is the only decent source of them at the time, and it gets extremely dull running the same 3 dungeons over and over. More variety is always a good thing, I think.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

However, without proper incentives (and they would probably have to be hefty given how most people will choose the easy way to run content), people won’t do it. I think it would be a nice change to have it offer current capped tomes, because Expert Roulette is the only decent source of them at the time, and it gets extremely dull running the same 3 dungeons over and over. More variety is always a good thing, I think.

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First part: This was the issue with Coil (Savage). A harder fight with no incentive besides a title.

Second part: Less and less people even bother with expert for tomes anymore. I'm normally capped way before reset without bothering with them. This is one of the reasons SE is adding less dungeons: People are capping tomes through various means and dungeons are just not popular anymore (Though they may have missed the mark here; people just don't wanna do it because it's horrid content)

yes please ^^/

we did a naked run in amdapor city with our FC a while ago, it was a lot of fun. we actually had to pass the tether at first boss to the tank, because if anyone else would have been sucked into the belly he didn't survived ^^ and we had to handle the doors at last boss. much more fun than overgearing the dungeons and ignoring all mechanics :O

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Originally Posted by Pence

First part: This was the issue with Coil (Savage). A harder fight with no incentive besides a title.

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My opinion is that, when content is relevant, there are still people willing to do content that offers little incentives outside of a title. See the upcoming Super Savage. As far as I am aware, it only offers a title—no other shinies, unless this has been changed. Yet there was a thread on here not too long ago with posters complaining about how “inaccessible” it was to lock Super Savage behind clearing V4S. However, I was not playing when Coil or Second Coil Savage was relevant, so whether or not this was the case then, I don’t know, but I still did Second Coil Savage (albeit, unsynced) just for 1. Something to do during he lull before SB, and 2. I wanted the titles.

I have plenty of interest to try my hand running Coil and Second Coil Savage at minimum ilvl. Because why not? I’ve done most everything else in this game. But finding likeminded people will definitely be a challenge for such an endeavor.

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Second part: Less and less people even bother with expert for tomes anymore. I'm normally capped way before reset without bothering with them. This is one of the reasons SE is adding less dungeons: People are capping tomes through various means and dungeons are just not popular anymore (Though they may have missed the mark here; people just don't wanna do it because it's horrid content)

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I think that’s probably more so that Expert Roulette is extremely dull. I can barely bring myself to cap each week now that I have geared BRD in everything but the last Savage pieces I need. The dungeons stopped being interesting after week one, and the runs are only made interesting when there’s other factors (like drama) to make them so. Expert is the easiest of the methods available to cap tomes, but also the most boring.


I know there are people that want this, but like I and others said, unless there are decent incentives, people that do not already have a prior interest in running content at minimum ilvl won’t do it. Because...well, why?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

My opinion is that, when content is relevant, there are still people willing to do content that offers little incentives outside of a title. See the upcoming Super Savage. As far as I am aware, it only offers a title—no other shinies, unless this has been changed.

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This was never changed, because it was never said. They actually made it clear it would be more than just titles - and it is in fact new i345 weapons with 'super sick amazing brah' designs. (But...c'mon, look at the state of end game gear. Don't expect much)

Also: 'Second Coil Savage' was never really a big thing. It feels like SE thought it was and spawned the initial Alex tier and......

I would not want this. I would like to see less roulettes overall -- or to see more equalisation between them (e.g. MSQ roulette should include the endgame trials/dungeons). However, I think it'd be great if they made an achievement for clearing ARR/HW/SB dungeons (eventually) at minimum ilevel, with a neat little title attached. As it is, though, we have too many roulettes to begin with.

Personaly, I would appreciate anything that would give Min ilevel more visibility (even if I've already done all the 50-60-70 4-men dungeons in this mode) !

It clearly is my favorite game style, as it really makes every boss fight interesting, and I'm sure many people would like it too, but they don't even know the existence of this option...

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It would be interesting to know which dungeon encounters, if any, are especially hard with minimum ilv set given that they won't necessarily be properly balanced.

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The final boss of Haukke Manor(Hard), by FAR the hardest one !!! She clearly is above every other 4-men boss !

Or at least it was during Heavensward.
With all the gameplay changes the 4.0 did, I don't know if it's still the case.


By the way, if you are interested by playing Min ilevel, or at least giving it a shot ^^, we have a Linkshell on Ragnarok called "Minimum ilevel Club".
We're mostly french guys, but we welcome anybody. :D

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Originally Posted by Grann-Goro

Personaly, I would appreciate anything that would give Min ilevel more visibility (even if I've already done all the 50-60-70 4-men dungeons in this mode) !

It clearly is my favorite game style, as it really makes every boss fight interesting, and I'm sure many people would like it too, but they don't even know the existence of this option...

By the way, if you are interested by playing Min ilevel, or at least giving it a shot ^^, we have a Linkshell on Ragnarok called "Minimum ilevel Club".
We're mostly french guys, but we welcome anybody. :D

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I know you're mostly French guys, but do you guys speak English well? If so, do you have a Discord for it? I'd love to get involved in that (since we're on the same datacentre), but cross-realm linkshells aren't a thing... yet (they may or may not become a thing)

If there is extra rewards, I would do it (With friends, of course, I woudn't do it with random people unless the rewards were something like.... 500 million gils per dungeon...)

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Not sure if this is referencing tomes, but you can’t accrue tomestones via unsynced runs unless someone has a bonus—and, at that point, you only get the bonus tome amount, not the full tome reward for duty completion. Experience-wise, obviously unsynced doesn’t provide you with any sort of experience.

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Sure, but I don't feel like being nitpicky here, since that only goes to further drive the point I was making in the first place home - people generally don't prefer the hard way if they can have the easy way.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I don't ever recall them stating that that min ilvl is below the developed ilvl they assumed for.

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It's the same old and worn interview often used in healer DPS debates, I bet you stumbled over it at some point.
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...tions-requests

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[...]
Yoshida: When we make battle content, first we determine a minimum assumed item level required to clear. Then, we determine the total amount of party damage required to clear, taking a minimal amount of damage from tanks and healers into account during this calculation.

What do you mean by minimal?

Yoshida: Basically it's the damage from tank auto-attacks and the basic skill rotation used in order to maintain hate. We add this to the party damage needed. However, we often use zero in the calculation for damage required from healers. In other words, we only take into account the amount of damage necessary to perform as a tank or a healer and we don't take them into account as actively participating in attacking. For the clear assumption on DPS, we calculate the 100% value for the item level and we reduce that by 10 to 15 percent for the amount required to clear.

But it's often actually the case that healers do participate in attacking.

Yoshida: Well, the calculations are based on the item level assumed during development.

Ah, and that's different from the minimum item level required to try the content.

Yoshida: Yes. So if you try to clear it at a lower item level, it will be necessary for tanks and healers to participate in attacking. [...]

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It's not 100% explicit, but it's easy to infer that he means "lower than the one assumed during development" in the last part, since an item level lower than is required to enter in the first place makes no sense, as that would mean you cannot enter. And since the two are explicitly different, that can only mean the assumed item level is higher than the minimum to enter. Which in turn also means healer DPS can be required to beat it. It's been chewed over numerous times.

@Paladinleeds

Well, I personaly am pretty confortable with english when it comes to read it, write it, or listen to it, but maybe a little less when it comes to speak... (lack of pratice I guess) ^^

But we do have a Discord for it, yes !
We have only used it a few times so far, as we haven't done a lot of 8-men content yet.
However, last time we used it with two swedish people, had to talk in english with them, and still managed to pass Bahamut 1 (no echo) !
It was awesome !!

For 4-men content, Discord isn't a necessary thing, and I've done a lot of dungeons thanks to the cross-realm party finder (both with unknow people and some regular guys).
Besides, the new 4.0 party finder is really cool, as it can show with more than text description that people want to play Mini ! :D

So if you see me on it - or if I see you - we could play together.

When it comes to make a 8-men party, I usually use the Lodestone Event page.
That way, we can communicate cross-realm.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

It's the same old and worn interview often used in healer DPS debates, I bet you stumbled over it at some point.
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...tions-requests

It's not 100% explicit, but it's easy to infer that he means "lower than the one assumed during development" in the last part, since an item level lower than is required to enter in the first place makes no sense, as that would mean you cannot enter. And since the two are explicitly different, that can only mean the assumed item level is higher than the minimum to enter. Which in turn also means healer DPS can be required to beat it. It's been chewed over numerous times.

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Thanks for this. Yeah, I have read it in the past but must've missed that little bit regarding that difference. It's nice to see actually. I may just go through this translation again since it's fuzzy in my brain and would be fun to see the thought process of the developers at the time.

One problem with doing content at lower gear is also the avaliable skills. Job are based around having all their max lv toolkit. Especially the dps,m I would say. I would love being able to do coil with a synced ilv and level as long as I have access to all my tools.

Aurum Vale Minimum iLvl - Look Forward to it.

I would like this feature.

This is actually a brilliant idea! They would need to give it worthwhile rewards though to convince people to do it.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Aurum Vale Minimum iLvl - Look Forward to it.

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This is where players start sac pulling the tank again.

The thing is : the "minimum item level" option of the duty finder isn't compatible with random group...

That means that people who would select "minimum item level roulette" could only be matched with people who would also select the same roulette, and not with people who would have selected a specific dungeon.
So sadly, I'm not sure it could really work well...

However I really would like to see at least some minor rewards for playing in minimum item level, like some achievements, titles, or cosmetic gear.
That could still motivate some more people to try (and appreciate) the challenge.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Ironically, the devs have once stated that the item level they assume during the development of content is different than the minimum item level to enter it and from context it can be derived that they design it with a higher item level in mind than is needed to enter.

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This is why we have undergeared tanks wearing stuff like non-augmented Shire gear and going in to SB duties such Bardems or Doma Castle and either surviving by a minor thread or dying at every pull.

I would hope that SE fix the minimum ilvl requirement for MSQ duties first before adding a separate roulette for everyone else to enjoy the challenge.