What, you expected me to post a 20,000 word essay on the lore?
No, I'm not very qualified. But I know some of you are.
Please share your views. Thanks. :p
(For instance, examples of good quests and story arcs which acknowledge these issues, characters which are good examples of the effects and implications of such issues, and insight on how the Eorzean world order works. And how we could improve the in-game presentation of all this, to improve the game overall.
Examples:
East Aldenard Trading Company, an entity, and its implications. How the Ruby Sea pirates reacted were also interesting.
City-states versus nation-states, a concept. How this concept in Eorzea will likely differ from our world, yet which parts do not differ.
Social-political effects on the commonfolk, handled quite well in Heavensward. A few questlines in Stormblood such as the quarry one touch on social-economical impacts.
How economic order works in Eorzea, for the Garleans, and past civilizations of other eras.
Lots of questlines deal with powerstruggles. Share and compare them.
Does the game have newspapers? Cameras? How do we spread information, and what examples of socio-political implications are there?
And more!
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09-24-2017, 10:08 PMRaqrie_Tohka
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09-24-2017, 11:38 PMMysterysword
Here's a fun ramble of half-remembered facts I've had about the East Aldenard Trading Company(EATC), and its real-life counterpart, the British Empire's East India Company(EIC).
Despite how the EATC and Lolorito is repeatedly being portrayed as super-rich and powerful, they don't seem like that much of an overall threat, compared to the EIC. At its founding in 1600, Queen Elizabeth I granted the EIC a Royal Charter, giving the company ridiculous amounts of power, including the authority to print and distribute its own currency outside of England, and to wage war. It also may or may not have been the only corporation in history to conquer a sovereign nation.
It also established and ran colonies, many of which are independant countries today. Lolorito owning one building in Kugane is the equivalent of a kid pitching a tent in their home's backyard, in comparison.
As we can see, despite the boogeyman nature of the EATC in Eorzea, it has yet to pull off any of the stunts that the EIC performed. Part of this may be that the EIC certainly had the backing and approval of the British royal family, while Nanamo and her supporters see the EATC as political opponents on a good day, and traitors-in-waiting on a bad one. Or maybe it's that the EATC doesn't have its own standing army, which the EIC did.
Fun fact: The EIC's personal army actually outnumbered the British Army, at some points being twice the size. It used this army to take over and rule India through a system of puppets. But, ultimately, it couldn't stick around forever, and the EIC was dissolved in 1874. Meanwhile, the EATC is about 30 years old.
Moving on to other things, I've often wondered why Eorzea seems to have no banks whatsoever. It's true that the earliest bankers were goldsmiths, who stored peoples' deposits of precious metals, but Ul'dahn goldsmiths don't seem to perform this service at all.
Anyway, if we really wanted to establish the EATC as a bigger threat, they should start with recruiting their own army, instead of dipping into the Brass Blades and paying off the Crystal Braves. But then again, there are a couple of possible reasons why the EATC won't do this:
1. Political obstruction from Nanamo, who doesn't want to let Lolorito have any more power.
2. Keeping an army on standby is expensive, even more so in a population-depleted region like Eorzea, after the Calamity. So, perhaps it's best to maintain a mercenary army, as the Venetian Empire did. -
09-25-2017, 01:26 AMCilia
The Brass Blades are Lolorito's personal army. He pays them, hence why all the Blades turned on us during the Parting Glass incident.
There is known to be at least one newspaper in Eorzea, the Mythril Eye. Various seasonal quests deal with it, as well as the Lightning event and the ARR Hilidbrand line.
The rest... I'm not too keen on. I'm more a philosopher than a politician or economist. -
09-25-2017, 02:42 AMTinyRedLeaf
I once created a similar thread, but it never got very far, mainly because there's too much conjecture involved, so it's very easy to go off-topic instead of discussing actual FFXIV lore. Here's hoping you have better luck with this thread. ;)
(1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka
Each of the southern city-states has its own newspaper. Limsa Lominsa's rag is the Harbor Herald. Gridania's paper of record is The Raven. Cameras don't exist, but there are clearly skilled illustrators in Eorzea, if Alphinaud's talent is anything to go by.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
As for social implications, I don't have any idea, except that literacy is not supposed to be widespread. Among the Spoken races, the hyur — and the midlanders in particular — are supposed to be the most literate. But this little detail has been lost in implementation, as I don't recall any scene where there's an NPC who confesses to being unable to read.
(2)
There's not much to compare between Eorzea and Europe's own experience of nation-states. Back in 1.0, there was a greater sense of the city-states being tiny outposts of civilisation amid a realm of dangerous wilderness, but that is no longer the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka
Nationalism, in the European context, is driven very much by ethnic or language. Eorzea is significantly different because 1) linguistic differences don't appear to exist between the city-states; and 2) the city-states are remarkably cosmopolitan.
In contrast, the "nations" of Eorzea, being cities to begin with, are distinguished more by their respective history, traditions and ideologies. In this sense, the city-states have more in common with the cities of the Italian Renaissance, than with the nation-states of pre-modern Europe.
(3)
This was discussed here: I Want to Know About Eorzean EconomicsQuote:
Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka
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09-25-2017, 04:02 AMJyera
Yes to newspapers. The Mythril Eye was mentioned in the post above me, and there's also The Raven and The Harbor Herald.
edit whoops beat me to it ;)
But to suggest a lazy person's economic overview, Eorzea's economy/ies remind me of the pre-industrial-revolution guilds system in western Europe. Skilled artisans, specialists, and sometime noble patrons grouped together in a system of apprenticeship and small markets, hugely supplemented by patron funding and commissioned work. I don't know that I'd say we've entered manufactory systems yet, either; even Ul'dah, with a huge open market, interregional trading, and a sense of capital, relies on individual craftsmen, personal wealth, and small-scale work orders for trade and labourer guilds like the miners. As opposed to, say, a factory-labour-based economy with currency defined, printed, and stockpiled by banks or credit unions. -
09-25-2017, 04:08 AMYianKutku
It's three in the morning here so I can't go into details, but the 50-60 BTN questline does involve a reporter from the Raven and her articles on the state of Ishgardian agriculture.
Also agreed on the obvious inspiration for the East Aldenard Trading Company being the British East India Company. Which made me predisposed to view the EATC with suspicion, given the whole deal with the EIC starting and prosecuting the Opium Wars. (I'm Chinese, so my ancestors were on the losing side.) -
09-25-2017, 08:39 AMMysteryswordTo be fair, would the Opium Wars have even started, had the Emperors of China not decided to come down hard on the opium trade? Statistics aren't that reliable, but some sources say that 90% of Chinese men were addicted to opium. You can't cut off a customer base like that and expect the opium to go nowhere. (The furthest back I can trace my ancestry is to my great-grandparents, who fled the civil war at the end of the Qing dynasty, and sailed south to settle in a British colony.)Quote:
Originally Posted by YianKutku
Anyway, upon further research, turns out the Mirage Trust does contain a bank. Makes the one I created for my fanfic a little superfluous, but oh well.
In the interest of crunching population numbers, I also dug up the only reference to hard figures for Eorzean populations I can find in the lorebook: The Immortal Flames has 3 Main Brigades, with 236 men each. That doesn't include the Bloodsworn, so let's assume that are another 200. That would mean that (236x3)+200 would make the total number of Immortal Flames... 908. It is specifically said that the other Grand Companies are bigger, but by how much isn't stated. Assuming that they're at least twice the size of the Immortal Flames, we have a total of maybe 5000 people for the entirety of the Grand Companies. Not counting the Temple Knights, or each city-state's personal authority, which we might also assume are bigger than that. Anyone else mind extrapolating how big the Brass Blades should be in comparison to the Immortal Flames? Once we can guess at their numbers, we can also guess at the total population of Ul'dah, since there should be an average ratio of police to population.
Finally, on the Brass Blades: The lorebook states that they're employed by the Syndicate as a whole. So, on paper, they're not Lolorito's personal army. While many of them do answer only to the Monetarists (which is only Lolorito since the other prominent moneypopoto got chopped) there are a fair few who do serve the city at large. Fufulupa is just one example. -
09-25-2017, 03:21 PMYianKutkuEminently fair. While I am skeptical of the 90% number, that's beside the point that a large portion of the populace were addicted, and the Emperors of China were definitely too heavy-handed in their decrees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterysword
(I can only trace my ancestry a few more generations beyond what you could. My parents' generation migrated south to Indonesia and Singapore for economic opportunities, since the Japanese invasion wiped out the family's wealth.)
It does bring up the question of what the arrangement was like prior to 2.55, though. It's well known that Lolorito and Teledji were not fond of one another, and the Brass Blades being in the pay of "the Syndicate as a whole" makes me wonder if Brass Blade were ever pitted against Brass Blade in yet another power jockeying play between the two.Quote:
Finally, on the Brass Blades: The lorebook states that they're employed by the Syndicate as a whole. So, on paper, they're not Lolorito's personal army. While many of them do answer only to the Monetarists (which is only Lolorito since the other prominent moneypopoto got chopped) there are a fair few who do serve the city at large. Fufulupa is just one example.
I mean, I know Brass Blades have arrested other Brass Blades with alarming frequency, but one side tends to be following the official rules when doing so.
The third (now second) Monetarist on the Syndicate, Fyrgeiss, still has his private Stone Torches army, so the Brass Blades would be redundant. -
09-25-2017, 05:39 PMMysteryswordWell, they were the Emperors of China. Were they ever known to be light-handed in their decrees concerning things they didn't like? Not that the British were blameless either, since getting an entire country addicted to a drug, just to facilitate trade, is more than a little... extreme. Also, the Chinese apparently weren't executing opium merchants right off the bat, though maybe that's just because they didn't know the definition of "drug dealer" back then. Coincidentally, my country does execute drug dealers, or even people simply caught with certain amounts of any drug. It sure makes for a fun time when you can compare your government to the Chinese Empire and have the latter come off as more lenient!Quote:
Originally Posted by YianKutku
(My ancestors were apparently all illiterate farmers and craftsmen, which means a distinct lack of any sort of family registry. My parents' generation was the first to have every member be literate, mostly because they were the first to grow up in an independent country, not a colony. But it would be difficult to trace anyway, since they emigrated from all over China - my maternal grandfather came from Kinmen as a teenager, sometime in the 1930s. The most I know is that we have distant relatives in Taiwan.)
I kind of think that, while Lolorito and Teledji didn't like each other, their businesses operate in different, and sometimes complementary, industries, so it's difficult to think of how a power play between them could've resulted in an outright Brass Blades mobilisation. They did have a much more important opponent in the form of the Royalists, after all, who command both the Sultansworn and the Immortal Flames.
As for Fyrgeiss, well, he may be a Monetarist, but he may as well be nonexistent for all he's done in the story. It feels almost racist, that the entire 2.55-3.0 story involved only the Lalafell members of the Syndicate, with Fyrgeiss and God not even being mentioned. -
09-25-2017, 06:18 PMYianKutkuI did suspect when you mentioned your family sailed south from China to a British colony, but with this... fellow Singaporean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterysword
Given the state of Ul'dahn politics when we start ARR, though, it's very clear that the Royalists are pretty much beaten down into near-irrelevancy, with only Raubahn in that camp on the Syndicate. Even the Sultansworn got infiltrated/bribed by Monetarists, as the 30-50 PLD questline showed. (Not to mention how we apparently slaughter several more Sultansworn who merely had the misfortune to follow Jenlyns's mistaken orders.) At that point, the Monetarists didn't really have much to fear.Quote:
I kind of think that, while Lolorito and Teledji didn't like each other, their businesses operate in different, and sometimes complementary, industries, so it's difficult to think of how a power play between them could've resulted in an outright Brass Blades mobilisation. They did have a much more important opponent in the form of the Royalists, after all, who command both the Sultansworn and the Immortal Flames.
On the one hand, I can imagine Lolorito and Teledji restricting themselves to political maneuvering in the backrooms, since outright violence by the Brass Blades is too messy. On the other hand, what happened in 2.55 is supremely messy, so clearly that's not a restraining factor in their decisions.
I don't actually recall seeing Godbert present in any Syndicate meeting cutscenes. (I could have missed something early on, when I didn't know about his significance.) I suspect Fyrgeiss is a Monetarist only in the sense that he believes that money should be primary, rather than actively opposing the Sultanate.Quote:
As for Fyrgeiss, well, he may be a Monetarist, but he may as well be nonexistent for all he's done in the story. It feels almost racist, that the entire 2.55-3.0 story involved only the Lalafell members of the Syndicate, with Fyrgeiss and God not even being mentioned.
Godbert's personal investment in any situation is probably inversely proportional to how much clothing he's wearing at the time. -
09-25-2017, 07:30 PMMysteryswordHello!Quote:
Originally Posted by YianKutku
It's easy to miss, but a major factor in the 2.55 fallout was that Nanamo was going to tear down the entire government, making it a desperate time for the Syndicate. And desperate times call for desperate measures, so Lolorito and Teledji played all their cards to make sure that didn't happen.
It's an interesting thought exercise to write a fanfic that includes a wealthy, influential Royalist on the Syndicate. What would an Ul'dah with a mega-rich Royalist look like?
Anyway, God's first appearance in the MSQ was the scene in which the Syndicate voted to allow the Doman refugees entry into Ul'dah. Curiously enough, he voted against them, although given that he was wearing an entire hooded robe, maybe he just didn't care.
Outside of the MSQ, there's a level 30s sidequest involving him at Camp Bronze Lake, which I remember because it almost seems like his natural environment, until you see him elsewhere. -
09-27-2017, 06:10 AMAmetrine
I understoon the Bronze Lake quests were initially added to reference the 1.0 Hildy quests, in which Godbert was still in mourning over losing his son during the Calamity. (Our helping him get out of this funk is why he gifts us a Meteor Survivor Ring, as it has a good deal of symbolism for the old man.) Also, there is simply nothing in the game that indicates Godbert is a Royalist, nor that being a monetarist=evil, avarice fueled monster as we've seen with Taleji.
Though, the only other Monetarist we've spoken to is Dewlala, leader of the Church of Nald'Thal, which, as a religious order, puts intense importancy on personal wealth and incredibly high tithes. We don't even know if she's on the Syndicate as a representative of Nald'Thal the holy body, or if her personal wealth as the church's leader gives her enough money to qualify.
But, she was absolutely in cahoots with Lolorito in regards to halting Nanamo's plan to force complete governmental reform. Her being the city's major religious leader puts her in an odd position, as she could rightly argue her siding with keeping the status quo was to prevent unneeded suffering to the masses. I'll need to rewatch the cutscenes from that point in the story, but I do remember she almost chastised the WoL in the scene.
Back to Godbert, he does employ hundreds of people from all corners and walks of life, and he donates a few million to the Starlight Festivals. So it's really impossible to know yet if his choice to bar the Domans was a Monetarist power play or him being so uninvested, he just walled put when everyone else did. -
09-27-2017, 10:22 AMVargasVermillion
One thing I got from the storylines relating to garlean provinces is that they are largely expected to be self sufficient and will only gain actual assistance from the government if the location is useful for one reason or another (I heard that Doma was a tourist destination before the failed rebellion due to their 'outlandish culture') or if people who inhabit the settlements earn their keep. In the opposite example the ala mhigan locations were very poor, both due to the lack of resources that interest the empire and because it's right on the border of an enemy territory. Not quite sure about merchants but none of the ala mhigan ones were happy, I'm guessing they just had to give up a lot of their goods to the army on request.
It was recently mentioned in a lore panel that Garlemald sells it's earlier magitek advancements to other states to fund their military campaigns (hence the consulate in Kugane). This got me wondering if the machina in kugane castle may of been based on garlean designs. -
09-27-2017, 01:08 PMYianKutkuDewlala is Neutral. From the lorebook, she "walks a narrow path between the Monetarists and the Royalists", and the Order of Nald'Thal in general "maintains a position of neutrality in public". Historically the Order is Royalist in that they aid the royal family, but after the rise of the Monetarists, they also help the Monetarists amend the code of law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ametrine
Practically, this means she plays politics by helping one or the other as she sees fit, but does not align herself with either Royalist or Monetarist factions.
I've always put Godbert in the Neutral faction as well, but more out of disinterest than deliberate decision. I don't think there's any explicit evidence that Godbert is indeed Neutral, as opposed to a very apathetic Monetarist. (He can't be a Royalist, since the lorebook states Raubahn is the only one.) However, since there is no mention of Godbert's affiliation in his profile, while Fyrgeiss is stated to be a Monetarist despite being equally invisible in Syndicate business, I think it is *strongly suggestive* that Godbert is indeed Neutral. -
09-27-2017, 03:17 PMAmetrine
Thank you for the clarification!
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09-28-2017, 12:28 AMMysterysword
In the interest of crunching population numbers, I tried to do Ul'dah's by figuring out an appropriate military to population ratio, but there are too many factors influencing this ratio for me to consider them all. Not least of which is the fact that the Calamity presumably depopulated Eorzea pretty hard, and so the number of able-bodied people (men and women serve in the military equally, it seems, another thing to consider) is much lower than it would be sans Calamity. I'll let someone else tackle this question.
But I can, at least, try to figure out the population of the Garlean Empire! The lorebook states that each legion of the Garlean Army is roughly 6000 soldiers strong. With 14 legions (let's just count the ones that were decimated or destroyed throughout the story so far), that's 84000 soldiers. The lorebook also states that this is not an absolute number, due to soldier rotation, so let's just make that a nice 80000 for convenience.
Now the tricky part: Figuring out a proper ratio of military : total population. On Earth, North Korea is the most militarised country in the world. In 2005, their military : total population ratio was roughly 57 : 1000. Applying that to the Empire, from an army of 80000, we get a total population of 1, 403, 508 and some change. Admittedly, that doesn't include the army itself, so adding that in makes it 1.5 million.
Dissatisfied with that answer, I went on to look for some more ratios, particularly those from medieval times. Some very lazy Googling later, I found a rough guess of 1 soldier : 15 citizens. This equates to about 66 : 1000. Applying that to the Empire, we get a population of 1, 200, 000. Add in the military to get 1.28 million.
But we have to remember the fact that the Garlean Empire is heavily militarised. Let's just go ham. Let's assume that they have higher ratios than we've ever seen on Earth. Let me just assume a still-rather-conservative ratio of 80 : 1000. That means the Garlean Empire has 1, 000, 000 civilian citizens.
The total population of Europe in the 14th century, before the Black Death wrecked it, is estimated to have been somewhere between 100mil to 150mil.
Welp. I dunno. I suppose this may have been a futile endeavor from the start, but if I have to math, I'm posting the results, dammit!
P. S: Also, Google tells me that the population of the Roman Empire, in 25 BCE, was 56 million. So yeah, there's that. -
09-28-2017, 02:27 AMRaqrie_TohkaInteresting, but I wouldn't assume the soldier-count for a legion includes all the engineers, technicians, facility operators, scribes, messengers, non-combat logistic-divisions, immobile garrison-only divisions, reserves and in-training, on-leave non-active personnel, pilots, military police, researchers and scientists, drafted skilled-civilian accompaniment (almost akin to slaves, they may help set up base, provide amenities, be drafted to rush production in ad-hoc factories, or just follow along as a whole family, understandable for very long range military incursions where they set up semi-permanent bases).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterysword
Etc, these may all be assigned to a certain legion, yet they will not count as actual "legion strength". The 6000 "legion strength" probably covers only offensive-ready footsoldiers. For non combat-ready personnel, just the on-leave (but battle-ready in a pinch) personnel in rotation, could account for almost a 3rd of all active soldiers. So my estimate of a legion population, taking in account all auxiliary personnel, could be up to 3-5 times the actual "legion strength" of 6000 people. Could be up to 10 times or more if we account for the skilled civilian accompaniment too. Not to mention the Garleans make heavy use of mechanical droids and machina to bolster their strength, up to 5 magitek and logic-capable war-machines for each 1 biological soldier. The servicemen and technicians for these droids will need to be counted separate from the engineers and technicians responsible for bases and general equipment as well.
So if it was me, I would raise the 1 mil total population estimate to something between 10-20 mil. And Quintuple the assumed strength of a legion. Then add double, or even triple that amount of mechanical fighter counterparts to the biological strength. Not counting airship fleets, bombers, and mobile special task forces not assigned to "legions" (probably under direct command from central).
So now you could see how one legion could almost conquer Eorzea single-handedly. Especially considering the replacement speed of mechanical fighters may be incredibly swift compared to refilling the ranks with biological fighters. Unless I am severely mistaken about the skilled-civilian accompaniment theory. I had always assumed there were whole frontier-cities filled with skilled technicians, suppliers, workers, and relatives of frontline soldiers, to support the actual fighting legion, churning out non-stop industry so the soldiers would never lack equipment and supplies (which in-game, we always see them well-dressed and well-armed).
The argument for industrial frontier-cities is also the economic side of war and conquest; the Garleans actively make use of, extract and gather up the resources of lands they are currently in conquest. Large scale organized extraction and refining of resources to ship back to the capital, or used to turn into more equipment for the war on the spot. Invaders worth their salt generally don't leave fertile lands pristine, and natural resources untouched. Perhaps they'll even adopt a "scorched earth" policy when they (inevitably) retreat from Eorzeans retaking the land. Idk if our game has place for such dark things. But I will be severely disappointed if the Garleans don't respond, en mass, to our little Ala Mhigo revolution and killing of the crown prince. Hope the writers are up to the task. (If it was me, I'd bomb all of Ala Mhigo, then hit the heart of Eorzea with 3 full legions plus a special task force. Target the cities with bombing too. Personally send a high-ranking commander usually reserved in the capital, just to avenge the prince. Thankfully, I don't get to decide, though.) -
09-28-2017, 10:41 PMLineageRazorAs appropriate as this might be, sadly I'm pretty certain that Varis's cold dismissal of the death of his son is going to be SE's method of handwaving why the Garleans DON'T respond to this affront in force. It's honestly not a very good handwave, as Varis's personal feelings on the matter really shouldn't be all that relevant; what matters is that a direct challenge was offered against the Garlean Empire like none previously. Two of its territories were liberated, and the son of their leader was killed. Even if Varis doesn't care about the latter, for the Empire not to respond with overwhelming force runs the risk of allowing the Empire to appear vulnerable, emboldening other nations (both conquered and not) to stand against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka
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09-29-2017, 12:58 AMMysteryswordAlternatively, 4.1-4.5 will feature the Empire being too distracted by something else. Maybe this double defeat has scared its citizens, sparking another round of civil unrest and causing them to doubt Varis' right to rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor