Tank skill gap, should SE do more? (damage taken issues/ hate issues)

I do realize people hate "dumbing down" suggestions and I know SE made small adjustments to make taking easier. However I still see lots of problems.

There should be NO REASON!!!! we get a wipe with me sitting there using all my lustrates/ dissipation (pact before dissipation use) and physick SPAM when I had nothing left. I had a tank, take more damage then me sitting there spamming my physick button, after all my other abilities used, he still managed to die. I explained this in party chat and was kicked after. So if I am going to be kicked abused because tanking is too hard, I really have to suggest making it easier.

At the very LEAST have tips IN GAME that gives tips how to space defensive CDS and the fact THEY NEED TO BE USED!!! not when one is low in HP or depending a healer to heal everything. Currently the average DF tank is too hard/ stressful to heal.

There is too much of a gap between good tanks and bad ones. With good tanks EoS does most of the healing, with bad tanks, they manage to die even with me using ALL MY TOOLS!

Snow Princess, staying alive is the responsibility of both parties. If a healer could carry a tank who didn't use any of their defensive cooldown, there be little reason for tanks to have defensive cooldowns in the first place.

The basic problem you are facing is that little thing called personality types. Some players read each spell and ask others for suggestions for when best to use them. While other players cannot be bothered to read the spell tooltips and blame other players for their failings.

S.E could put more tips in the game regarding tanking but those tips won't do much unless the can't be bothered tank players decide to be better tanks. That takes time and peer pressure.

Yes, the bad tank managed to get you kicked today; but, how many times do you think he's going to be able to blame the healer and get away with it? Soon, he'll be the one kicked and it will happen again and again.

Maybe then, maybe, that cannot be bothered tank will see the light and change into a tank who studies his cooldowns and cooldowns.

Or more likely just goes dps/always thinks it's the healers fault forever

Just re-queue, you're a healer, not as if you'll have long to wait.

Adlo spam is better than physics in situations where the shield absorbs damage and breaks before your next adlo. If the tank is bad just simply stop healing them and demand they kick you. There is no point in a dungeon where you as healer don't have control or say in what happens. If they kicked you just find another party, it's not a big deal.

*Eye-roll* There are just as many bad tanks as there are bad everything else, healers included. Nothing like rotating all your CDs only for the healer to let you die on a single group pull. You are going to encounter players of diverse skill levels, that's life I'm afraid.

This is another one of those 2 sides to every story posts. We aren't getting the full picture here, for all we know you blew everything right away on 90% overhealing then had nothing left. Or your "explanation" that it was the tanks fault could have been worded rather rudely which is why you were kicked.

That's not to say bad tanks don't exist, but a good healer can most definitely carry a bad tank, there's not really more of a skill gap there than on any other job. Bad dps, a pull will take too long, bad healer, the tank won't survive long enough, bad tank, the pull was probably larger than they were ready for. It's a group effort, everyone is contributing something and if that something is lacking, you're all going to die.

If as healer were not able to keep tank alive, it is tank's fault.

Or I decided it must die for party's sake. It may happen. Turtle killers are first of the list.

manage you defensive skills are part of the tank job yes thats something pretty important, but the actual meta actually "force you" to reduce you defense and emity generation in order to dealt more DPS, and thats one of the biggest isues with tanks for know, im starting to leveling my WHM just for do something and have a healer, im lvl 44 and yesterday doing dungeons i find 3 tanks, one in haukker mannor and 2 on stone vigil how refuse to use the tank stance after pulls (they forgeth turn it on after) bcs they want to be "good tanks" making me want to kill them my self (they pull a lot in those pulls, the ice spirits more dragons are ughh)more bcs they only have that job at that lvl or other jobs around the same lvl.

so yeah tanks problems start for dont doing they job properly and following a meta how reduce you defensive and emity even more, yes tank survivol is a 2 person job but in my opinion tanks shouldt have to reduce they defense in order to mid max they dps, tanks in my opinion need to be able to dealt they max dps without reducing defense making tanks and team sinergy being able to mid max they DPS without adding extra weight on the other 7 members of the team and prevent the gap skill we are having right now on new-regular tanks

Leave and queue after penalty, if a vote kick is not accepted. Some teams are more worth the 30-minute penalty than they're worth the headache they cause.

There's no single solution to people having no clue how to play their jobs, tanks or otherwise.

if the tank got hit for more damage than you can heal then the tank was either pulling more than one group or you were in savage content. i guess it's the first case.

SE can not do much about it. it's a problem caused by the community. when a tank thinks "i am not good enough, i should pull small", then the next DD or healer will run ahead and pull the next group of enemys. a tank don't really have a choice. either he pulls big or the party pulls big for him. but if he can't handle big pulls yet, it will probably lead to a wipe.

i remember when i was new at tanking and the healer and both DDs were running ahead, pulling the next group and let me die. if you pull small as a tank you do it wrong. and if you start pulling big because your teammates force you, you are wrong too, because you are not ready for these pulls.

SE can not do much about it, maybe put even more walls into the dungeons? but i don't think that is what we want...

I was leveling my WAR yesterday and got a DRK in trial roullete (susano normal). First Pull I noticed he don't put his tank stance up and I wwas w/e I'll pull. First phase was a breeze, at sword phase I got first sword and noticed he was not getting the orbs, forcing a healer to do so, after that he do not got the second sword and a wipe.

Before second pull I asked him if he knew what to do and he answered "YES". So I pulled again. Second phase again, he dind't get orbs and at sword phase a dps got the second sword preventing the wipe. At third phase he started to provoke thje boss at random times (I was tanking at deliverance at that point) but fortunelly I managed to keep the boss on me.

Thanks for those awesome jump potions Yoshida-san.

I think the job jump potions should not allow a new player to jump as a healer or a tank, just saying...

You shouldn't be spamming physick. Adlo spam is waaaaaaaaay better in situations where the tank is constantly taking big damage (like big dungeon pulls with bad tanks who don't use their defensive CDs).

If a tank doesn't use CD you already know your going to have a hard time. As a healer you can do those call outs and explain specially if they are a sprout and are under geared. When I heal first thing I check is tank gear, if I'm having a hard time healing and tank isn't using CD I call them out on it. Not to be criticizing them, being I also tank I back it up as tanking 101. Same works vise versa, if I'm a tank and a healer cast during a pull and is making my job harder I let them know. While personality types do play a huge role, there should always be some type of common sense, then again common sense is a dying trait.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

That's not to say bad tanks don't exist, but a good healer can most definitely carry a bad tank, there's not really more of a skill gap there than on any other job. Bad dps, a pull will take too long, bad healer, the tank won't survive long enough, bad tank, the pull was probably larger than they were ready for. It's a group effort, everyone is contributing something and if that something is lacking, you're all going to die.

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I agree with your post. There is more than one factor in play in a group.

But I will say tanks lately have a habit of not using cooldowns and blaming the healer.....It hasn't happened to me personally but it has happened to a few healer friends of mine.

You can put all the tips you want into the game but if someone doesnt even want to read their own abilities the point is moot.

At the end of the day you're the healer, so if you get kicked, enjoy the fast requeue :D

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

At the very LEAST have tips IN GAME that gives tips how to space defensive CDS and the fact THEY NEED TO BE USED!!! not when one is low in HP or depending a healer to heal everything. Currently the average DF tank is too hard/ stressful to heal...

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There's..already so many in-game ways for you to learn your job. Nothing else can be done that will change that. I remember doing the Gladiator quest-line. I've never tanked in any MMO before and I was too stubborn to ask for help. I failed it a few times because I kept just DPS'ing the guys. Through reading tool tips on the abilities I had and getting some clarification on some things I didn't understand, I was able to go back and finish the quest no problem. That quest stood out to me because I understood more how to hold hate.

So, some quests do prepare you for your job and just simple things (proper rotation for example) but GuildHests did a lot too.

Basic Training: Enemy Parties & Under the Armor. Both have wonderful concepts and teach you. The problem, is these concepts can be ignored and result in no one learning anything.

Lets take now the Hall of Novice where they actually tell you what you should / could be doing in a party as a certain role. They even say healers dps if you're comfortable and meet these requirements.

The game does a great job to teach, you can always ask questions. What this game can't do is make someone care, no matter how much you adjust it. This goes for healers / tanks / dps. You're right to be frustrated.

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Originally Posted by shao32

mid max they dps

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This right here.

They shouldn't be worried about dps. They arnt a dd, they are a tank. Hp and mitigation is most important.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

But I will say tanks lately have a habit of not using cooldowns and blaming the healer.....It hasn't happened to me personally but it has happened to a few healer friends of mine.

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I do see this a lot when healing. But at the same time, I also see healers not bother using their own cooldowns when I tank. I also see WHMs that never use regen or medica II, ASTs that sit in Nocturnal the entire time and only spam Benefic spells while rarely touching their cards, and SCHs that have their fairy on sic, meaning the fairy cds often go to waste.

I also see many DPS that don't use their cooldowns outside of boss fights (if they use them at all), as well as DPS that single target on AoE pulls. And some that aren't even doing their basic rotations properly (ie, DRG that never use heavy thrust, BLM that are using switching astral buffs like they're a level 4 THM, and not using transpose, fire III or blizzard III, and so on).

Bad play is all around, let's not go singling out roles for it :p

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

I do realize people hate "dumbing down" suggestions and I know SE made small adjustments to make taking easier. However I still see lots !

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What was the dungeon , one pulll Id say is harder on scholars than the other two healers , and I had to go upgrade my weapon. And thats the level 65 dungeon, the pull right before second boss Ive used everything before and unless a tank uses ultimate for a scholar healing that can be a bit tuff. And also SE needs to give drk another df cool down like four of their df cool downs are cross role they literally have nothing built in and I dont see how thats ok

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

What was the dungeon , one pulll Id say is harder on scholars than the other two healers , and I had to go upgrade my weapon. And thats the level 65 dungeon, the pull right before second boss Ive used everything before and unless a tank uses ultimate for a scholar healing that can be a bit tuff. And also SE needs to give drk another df cool down like four of their df cool downs are cross role they literallyhave nothing built in and I dont see how thats ok

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Ala mhigo, did say expert. Um... he was doing the typical combine pulls, I seen bigger, but it is rare to see that attempted, some parts you can't though though because of the gating the pulls. i324 SCH, 330 wep

I had some newish tank after this in the temple of the fist (had some i300 gear) and he was overpulling for his gear/ skill level. I was able heal though it till he combine pulled (again the typical combine pull, im guessing he was just mimicked what he seen others do, not realizing he can't handle this yet) and we wiped due to the drk taking too much damage and miner hate issues, I couldn't keep everyone up. At least this was not a premade group, and just did it breaking the pull up.

For can't fix bad play sure you can, just have tanks take less damage? boost enmity values in moves? can't be that hard to adjust. What I meant by giving in game tips, it appears to me people do not know when to use the defense CDs and you NEED to use them vs only using them when hp is low.

I did not know spamming adlo was better in those situations though, still not right to kick me after a wipe and say nothing. I was talking about how I used all my CDs and physick wasn't enough to keep him up after all my CDs where used including dissipation

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

Ala mhigo, did say expert. Um..

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i just found out yesterday people pull every add after second boss , but yet ive never seen this happen in any group ive ever been in , I def wouldnt do that with a scholar tho after playing scholar. But one of the biggiest things I notice about tanks tho even skilled tanks with are decent tanks, they dont aoe. I feel like if you do a big pull if ur a pali ur tp should be below half at end of pull, same with warrior, and for drk you should never see a drk with a full m p bar. So Id say even if a tank is skilled with cool downs they still not doing as much as they could tanks need to stop focusing in on one add and use some aoe and use their best cool downs on every big pull.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

I did not know spamming adlo was better in those situations though, still not right to kick me after a wipe and say nothing. I was talking about how I used all my CDs and physick wasn't enough to keep him up after all my CDs where used including dissipation

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it was not right for them to kick you, but they probably didnt know how to give sch advice and thought it easier to find a new healer.
adlo is higher potency than physics in the form of shiield and heal, but is mp extensive sp remember to use lucid/energy drain.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

I was leveling my WAR yesterday and got a DRK in trial roullete (susano normal)

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I believe you don't need tank swaps on Susano normal and you can also take both swords, but him not taking the orbs is lazy.

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Originally Posted by NinjaTaru72

This right here.

They shouldn't be worried about dps. They arnt a dd, they are a tank. Hp and mitigation is most important.

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The irony I find the best tanks tanking things without tank stance and take way less damage and does as much as a low tier dps. There is some beast warriors MT's ive been with in v1s where they take almost no damage from cleaves, not talking about the twinbolts here. Where you have guys in tank stance eating everything raw because they think they can. Or just like they are 90% ahead of aggro and actually still spam aggro combo. Okay m8.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

bad tank, the pull was probably larger than they were ready for.

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Yesterday for me was a little worse. Got a bad tank and was getting aggro for every Regen tick or every Cure I or II dropped on the tank. And I never got any problem with getting aggro by just using Cure. I found myself using Holy just to buy time to try to keep the tank alive or even keep myself alive while running off monsters and finding a new reason to drop Lucid Dreaming: MP.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

it was not right for them to kick you, but they probably didnt know how to give sch advice and thought it easier to find a new healer.
adlo is higher potency than physics in the form of shiield and heal, but is mp extensive sp remember to use lucid/energy drain.

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or they can use a cooldown? sorry it was more them then me, and it is likely I would of ran out of mp anyway doing that, the DPS wasn't exactly stealler, and that should been implied things where staying up too long if they where able spend that many Lusterates and dissipation. If the tank is over pulling for their skill level, it is up to them to pull less, not kick the healer that is unable carry that hard.

I do not like getting kicked because tanking is too hard to do for the average player. So I propose make tanking easier, more passive migrations, or make DFs have more frequent gates so people can't mass pull as much. I should not be stressing over a game because the average skill level is not up to par to handle things.

This kind of reminds me of World of Warcraft's move towards "active mitigation" for tanks, although I didn't stay long enough to experience it.

Maybe tanks should be designed to have DPS/Enmity cooldowns and mitigation comboes. Kind of like Royal Authority combo puts up a damage shield and Rage of Halone gives a short mitigation self-buff. Then Rampart, Awareness, Sentinel, etc. are all DPS/Enmity buffs in various forms.

I wonder if this kind of design would work.

Ala mhigo? Lawd lol you can literally pull everything until you can't anymore and still take minimum damage lol this tank must of been horrible but idk I usually prefer my friend to go heal so I can turn the dungeon to a 15min run

It comes off of sense from both the healer and the tank. If one doesn't pay attention at all, they die. A lot of times both parties get blamed for it. Just ask the tank to be careful more on their cooldowns on when to use them, and if they don't listen, then do what people said and jump out of the dungeon, OR you can attempt to vote kick the tank and ask friends for a replacement.

Everyone knows there are players that act like trash in this game, no matter how much they play because they just 1-2-3-1-2-3 without thinking. Tooltips will only help the issue so much. If people don't care, it won't do squat.

Also there's the fact that you don't have to dungeon run for EXP alone. Jump out of a dungeon? Spend your time NOT wasting time and go do fates for your level. I know that's what I've done for all my classes so far when I either have a long queue, or left a dungeon because of people being just plain dumb.

And one last question. What kind of tone did you have with the group? If you actually had a nice tone, you would have simply needed to report it to the GMs and wait for someone to contact you, while telling them when you got in the dungeon, what dungeon was it, and who you were wish. They can look up chat logs from instances.

I don't think tanking needs to be made any easier, I do think the one thing that doesn't get stressed enough through tank story quests is the importance of your gear being up to date.

The only one I've seen to 70 is WAR (my bf mains it) but I doubt either other tank job stresses it much more. The problem would still persist though - bad tanks that don't read their tooltips are likely also bad tanks that don't read their tutorial pop ups.

I just think calling for a nerf to "tank difficulty" is too broad. There are probably more good tanks out their than good healers and certainly more than good DPS if we define each role by their primary objective. To make the entire role easier to perform would just push more skiled players off of it which I doubt anyone wants.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Where you have guys in tank stance eating everything raw because they think they can. Or just like they are 90% ahead of aggro and actually still spam aggro combo. Okay m8.

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I laughed at that lmao but for real, These tanks piss me the hell off, I don't bother shirking. Screw them. Those smelly 100% tank stance, aggro spammers. It's always those onces that insist on going mt too. It's even worse when you go mt, then pull in tank stance, get your aggro combo out and go sword oath then they provoke, go into tank stance asuming their mt...like wtf are you doing??? this drives me up the wall.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

For can't fix bad play sure you can, just have tanks take less damage? boost enmity values in moves? can't be that hard to adjust.

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This doesn't fix bad play. It makes it easier. That means that for the GOOD players, it would be too easy. Unfortunately, the game needs to be balanced at such a point that there is still some challenge even for the good players, while it's manageable for the less skilled ones.
It's the same for all classes, even DPS. If the DPS suck, even a good tank and healer will not prevent the party dying, if for no other reason, then just cause the healer will run out of MP eventually. You can buy time running away to decrease the damage output in mob fights, or you can attempt to kite the bosses (if your PING is low enough), but that can take you so far.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

I did not know spamming adlo was better in those situations though, still not right to kick me after a wipe and say nothing.

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If the shield is used up entirely before your next cast, Adloquium gives more HP per cast. That's pretty obvious, with its total potency being 600 (more if it crits). But you are a scholar as well, so I guess I shouldn't have to say that Adloquium spam is impossible. It takes way too much MP for Lucid Dreaming and Aetherflow to keep up with it, especially in higher dungeons and boss fights. If you are forced to use it more than three or so times in a row every now and then, then chances are the parties survival hinges on the DPS anyway.

On a different note, Dissipation is a loss of healing in the long run. Unless all you need is a quick burst of powerful healing and a manageable healing after that, not using it is better. In a situation where you cannot keep up with the damage as is, using Dissipation will just speed up the process of the party dying out, by letting you cap the tank once, then have its health plummet shortly after.

On yet different note...Scholars healing is inferior to the other two healers since 3.0. It's a problem with the class. Having leveled all three to lvl70, I can assure you that in the same situation, with similar gear and clearly similar ability, healing with a Scholar is more challenging than with the other two healers. Not only do you have to keep healing without a break in situations where you could throw an attack here or there with the other healers, but you also have to do that while using greater variety of healing skills to keep up. For example, in a lot of content with White Mage, it's possible to just spam Cure II every-so-often with Regen in place, and attack in-between. Assize will deal with some extra free healing, while damaging and restoring some MP to boot. It's not efficient and it STILL works better than more focused Scholar play from my experiences.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

On yet different note...Scholars healing is inferior to the other two healers since 3.0. It's a problem with the class. Having leveled all three to lvl70, I can assure you that in the same situation, with similar gear and clearly similar ability, healing with a Scholar is more challenging than with the other two healers.

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Lies. Scholar is just fine in any content in the game.

Scholar Fey Union can handle the hardest pulls in the game alone. That 480 potency life line goodness is so good. A nice handful of of subpar SCHs out there that manually heal too much and never build the gauge for such situations, or realize that the job is best played using its free one-button heals over manual.

Rouse+Whispering Dawn popped before Fey Union? Two big regens on a tank? Who would have thunk.

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Originally Posted by technole

Lies. Scholar is just fine in any content in the game.

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I think you didn't read my post at all. I specifically said that with similar gear and skill level, playing Scholar is the most challenging, all other things being the same. I have nowhere said that Scholars cannot clear content. As I said, in similar situations, with similar gear and with me being the player in all three cases (meaning the same skill level) made me consider Scholar most demanding.

By no means do I consider myself a "top player" of any sort, and I'm further handicaped by excessive PING (which matters, a LOT, regardless of what anybody that had the luck of not having high PING may say). But hey, there are all sorts of people there, and the fundamental "early playthrough" should be comparable in difficulty to all the healer classes, while it is painfully clear it is not. The players skill difficulty spike should be reserved for the higher tiers of difficulty content, and it is visible even in most basic dungeons.


Reading requires some thought, who would have thunk...

@lvl60 in full ilvl 270, Embrace heals for 2.4k, which is not a lot of healing on trash. if your tank is double-pulling(hell, probably in single-pulls too) in early SB dungeons and expecting that to be more than a supplement, then you have an approach that is doomed to fail. unless lvl 70 bumps it up by a lot, I can't imagine it going that far unless the tank is just plain taking VERY little damage at the time.

And on trash, your damage in is much more steady than in certain raid content. unless they're not pulling a fair deal(usually doublepulling is the sweet spot) then you should be making up the deficit with your cooldown heals.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

I think you didn't read my post at all. I specifically said that with similar gear and skill level, playing Scholar is the most challenging, all other things being the same.

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I read it, you said Scholar is inferior to the other healers, calling it has problems with the class regardless of same gear level. You conveniently left it out and then added ping issues, so this is a goal post that got expanded. There is a difference between demanding and inferior.

It's not in anyway inferior even at same gear level. If you try to play it the same way as the other two healers, it will be harder. Scholar has one-button for almost every heal situation, and everytime Aetherflow is used it builds the fairy gauge which Fey Union should be liberally used, as it's the best regen of any of the three healers. Sure if DPS is slow or the tank is pretty lax about cool down use you'll have use more resources, whether it's just a tap of Excog/Lustrate. Either way, the life line adds so much wiggle room.

I think SCH is actually inferior in some situations Times where your cohealer dies and you're left trying to heal through an AoE and intom is on CD, you will be screwed. AST/WHM can spam medica. SCH can't. I have wiped countless times in progging savage content(esp o4s) from that exact situation. One emergency tactics isn't enough and succor heals for far too little and has way too high an mp cost. Other than that I'd say sch is pretty okay.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

I think SCH is actually inferior in some situations Times where your cohealer dies and you're left trying to heal through an AoE and intom is on CD, you will be screwed. AST/WHM can spam medica. SCH can't. I have wiped countless times in progging savage content(esp o4s) from that exact situation. One emergency tactics isn't enough and succor heals for far too little and has way too high an mp cost. Other than that I'd say sch is pretty okay.

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Deployment Tactics (and whatever fairy buffs you have not on CD) off of Eos, and soil is your game changer in that situation where if there are AoEs to survive but people might not be in the best shape. Surviving the initial hit(s) and then recovering with what you have if Indom/ET is on CD.

I've soloed O4S ExDeath as SCH with the other healer dead for all of white hole and black holes, but I am i339 so that played a part I'm sure.

Give tanks more damage by removing the reduced x% damage in tank stance... this will make tanks feel like a dps. This will not break the game in no way shape or form this will get more players to try out tanking.

We need parcers period. I run into way too many dps that think they are hot stuff but are taking for ever to kill mobs/boss. This puts more stress on the healers and tanks. Its 2017 and FFXIV is still in the dark ages when it comes to parcers.

END RANT...

There is no reason why a tank should die but the fact is players don't have the best tools to help them learn how to play their job well.

• A tank parcer can show damage out and how much damage is being reduced by throwing up buffs ect...

• A DPS parcer can show damage out and percentages of group buffs.

• A healer parcer can show how much damage each player is receiving so they dont over heal. It can also show how much over heal is being done and how much mitigation is being done by using shield heals...ect.

All of the above will give a clear reading as to how well you are playing at any given time. I dont care if you dont like parcers. Facts are facts half of the player base simply does not know how to play their jobs correctly. All I see on the forum is players complaining about other players not doing their jobs. Well fun fact PS4 players have no way to gauge their progress at any given time with actual numbers so as they level up they can't really see if they are improving so they guess. This leads to some of the players getting into bad habits and by the time they get to end game they are horrible players and good luck breaking the bad habits.

Basically you are telling players to get better but all the devs hand them is a hammer and screws. Will a hammer get the job done eventually but it will be a headache because you will end up losing half of the screws while banging your head in with the hammer :D

I think tanking is fine, I'd like them to look at DPS instead. I can do more dps more easily as a tank or healer than I can as a dps.

Lack of tank skill is just far more obvious than lack of dps skill.