Making smart decisions with skills

Hello,

Before I lose access to this forum due to the subscription fees I just wanted to leave some comments on the battle system.

I think one of the biggest flaws with the combat system is that I am never making smart choices, and this makes the battle system both repetitive and boring.

In 1.2 it's just a matter of going through your optimized combos repeatedly, over and over, never thinking about what you're doing.

In Warcraft, which yes I know some of you hate with every fiber in your soul, I'm constantly making smart decisions on the fly. Are my trinkets procced, is this the best time to boost this ability? If I cast this now will my projectile hit my target so that my debuffs will stay at 100%? Those are just a few of the considerations that I make in a regular Warcraft boss battle.

In FFXIV's 1.2 combat revision, the only decision I've really faced was "will I have enough mana when Parsimony is ready?

This is something that really needs to be improved, and while I won't be able to test the job system, what I've seen of it doesn't give me the impression that it will.

I hope you look into ways to make the combat more thought provoking and engaging without relying solely on the simplistic combo system introduced in this patch.

Thank you and good luck developing the game.


-Chardut

I have to agree with ya, despite what WoW is... It did have an impressive strategy involved when you played the game. I'm seriously hoping with FFXIV that we have more to do in regards of battle, multiple ways to play one class would be a better way to term it.

Sorry to see you go! Perhaps 2.0 will bring better tides for ya!

Hmmmm... while i agree with you I think if they continue on the combo road they could really fix up the battle system

Are you really expecting me to believe that keeping buffs up and debuffs are important decisions? They are important, but they arent decisions. They are just as mandatory as combos are in this game. If you are going to say that wow has important decisions to be made... you couldve used better examples. Shoot, most things in wow are set into rotations that have been defined, cannoned, for years now. ei. 69696969 tanking rotation. That being said... i believe that one more layer of complexity is needed in ffxiv.

I feel that a lot more can be done with the combo system. Once expanded to include other people in cross class combos, the system would become more complex. Prefight preparation would be needed to decide if you want to do individual combos vs group combos. I think thatll go a long way to addressing it.

Adding more private combos would also be a nice way to make it more complex.

One thing to note is that all those things you mentioned took a long time to implement into wow. By comparison, this game is in its infancy.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The combo system is a really good idea on paper. The problem with it's implementation is that we have been stripped of our freedom of choice. In 1.19 I could do whatever I wanted whenever I wanted. Now I have a (very small) predefined set of things I can do, and if I screw up a combo, that's a reduction in my efficiency right there. What the system needs is more choice and fewer directional requirements. Particularly for the lower levels when combos are extremely limited. Open it up a bit so I'm not forced into one combo path. It's too repetitive as it is. And I won't even touch on how much more idle time I have waiting on TP compared to before.

the replacement for the bat reg system shuold spice things up(hopfully). another thing id like to see is multi sided combos so when you use one you have a choice of effect.

I disagree with the OP. There are many skills that can be used very effectively in different situations other than just doing combos over and over. Doing combos is the best way to do great dmg, but a lot of these end-game fights are not dd races. The DoW players, for example, that feel they HAVE to do combos on the ifrit fight end up dying or getting other people in the party killed. The archers that just use shadowbind on the moogle that's being killed during the moogle fight to do more dmg are the bad archers. Use shadowbind to bind the moogles that are on the mages. You can split combos between mobs. Not making smart decisions with your skills are your flaws.

I'm seeing threads on these forums about how some skills are useless like resonance and sanguine rite. Resonance is amazing for situations where you have to run away from the tank such as during eruptions in the ifrit fight.

I think this battle system is a lot better than the one before 1.20. I do agree it's not complete, but no one said it was. All these changes are parts of a bigger picture. I'm looking forward to the additions of jobs and battle regimen to make the battle system even more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Shiggysonson

I disagree with the OP. There are many skills that can be used very effectively in different situations other than just doing combos over and over. Doing combos is the best way to do great dmg, but a lot of these end-game fights are not dd races. The DoW players, for example, that feel they HAVE to do combos on the ifrit fight end up dying or getting other people in the party killed. The archers that just use shadowbind on the moogle that's being killed during the moogle fight to do more dmg are the bad archers. Use shadowbind to bind the moogles that are on the mages. You can split combos between mobs. Not making smart decisions with your skills are your flaws.

I'm seeing threads on these forums about how some skills are useless like resonance and sanguine rite. Resonance is amazing for situations where you have to run away from the tank such as during eruptions in the ifrit fight.

I think this battle system is a lot better than the one before 1.20. I do agree it's not complete, but no one said it was. All these changes are parts of a bigger picture. I'm looking forward to the additions of jobs and battle regimen to make the battle system even more interesting.

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i use resonance on glad and during ifrit can raise pretty much anyone any where.

WoW (and Rift - and yes I played both; end-game and pvp) simply have more "buttons" available to press, and (as someone also touched on above) I would hardly look at all these "buttons" as opportunities for a player to make smart decisions while playing. They aren't "smart decisions" - they were how you played your class: it's called spell/ability rotation. And if you didn't do it properly you weren't able to play your class/role properly (i.e., tank not holding enough threat, DPS not, well, DPSing enough, etc. etc.). So the only decision was to either a) play bad, or b) play as the class was programmed. Even though PVP was more dynamic than PVE (in the sense that NPCs are far more predictable/learnable than PCs are) there was even still a notion of proper spell/ability rotation when playing vs. class A, or vs. Class B, etc. etc. So yeah, more "buttons" <> "the opportunity to make smart decisions with skills" (or, for you non Access/SQL readers, "<>" = "=/=" ... which is a perversion in any language IMO~~)

It's understandable that some people feel they have no choice in whether or not to perform a combo, or that they feel it's the only choice - but that's simply not true. The Ifrit fight itself is a prime example on making smart decisions or not:

• Do I wait to use a WS/ability, or do I risk getting caught in the animation and get blown up by a plume/eruption that I could have anticipated but simply ignored because I have ADHD or something like that and need insta-gratification by smashing 10 buttons per second?
• Do I stretch out the combo as long as possible (e.g., wait until the Combo-buff - w/e it's called - nearly times out), or do I LOL-I-DON'T-LIKE-TO-PAY-ATTENTION-TO-WHAT'S-GOING-ON-BECAUSE-THE-PRETTY-PINK-LIGHT-ON-MY-ACTION-BAR-IS-TOO-PRETTY-NOT-TO-PRESS~ and try and perform the full combo w/o regards to, well, what the he!! is going on?
• Do I even try to start a combo, or should I just use the first 10sec c/d WS and at least provide somewhat decent DoT while I wait for the right opportunity to do some burst DD with a combo?
• Etc. etc.

Failing to make the right (or, "smart") decision in this fight will either leave you a) dead, or b) nearly dead; and you can't a) do DD or perform your role when you're dead (unless I have a different client installed on my PC or something), or b) are taking unnecessary/unplanned attention away from your healer(s) form the tank which risks the entire fight to begin with. And this is just with the Ifrit fight - Moogle, Strongholds, etc., have different dynamics to them and require different "smart decisions" to be made.

yay, shiggy me and reuj all together in one thread,lol

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

yay, shiggy me and reuj all together in one thread,lol

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Niiiiiice~

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Originally Posted by Reaujien

WoW (and Rift - and yes I played both; end-game and pvp) simply have more "buttons" available to press, and (as someone also touched on above) I would hardly look at all these "buttons" as opportunities for a player to make smart decisions while playing. They aren't "smart decisions" - they were how you played your class: it's called spell/ability rotation. And if you didn't do it properly you weren't able to play your class/role properly (i.e., tank not holding enough threat, DPS not, well, DPSing enough, etc. etc.). So the only decision was to either a) play bad, or b) play as the class was programmed. Even though PVP was more dynamic than PVE (in the sense that NPCs are far more predictable/learnable than PCs are) there was even still a notion of proper spell/ability rotation when playing vs. class A, or vs. Class B, etc. etc. So yeah, more "buttons" <> "the opportunity to make smart decisions with skills" (or, for you non Access/SQL readers, "<>" = "=/=" ... which is a perversion in any language IMO~~)

It's understandable that some people feel they have no choice in whether or not to perform a combo, or that they feel it's the only choice - but that's simply not true. The Ifrit fight itself is a prime example on making smart decisions or not:

• Do I wait to use a WS/ability, or do I risk getting caught in the animation and get blown up by a plume/eruption that I could have anticipated but simply ignored because I have ADHD or something like that and need insta-gratification by smashing 10 buttons per second?
• Do I stretch out the combo as long as possible (e.g., wait until the Combo-buff - w/e it's called - nearly times out), or do I LOL-I-DON'T-LIKE-TO-PAY-ATTENTION-TO-WHAT'S-GOING-ON-BECAUSE-THE-PRETTY-PINK-LIGHT-ON-MY-ACTION-BAR-IS-TOO-PRETTY-NOT-TO-PRESS~ and try and perform the full combo w/o regards to, well, what the he!! is going on?
• Do I even try to start a combo, or should I just use the first 10sec c/d WS and at least provide somewhat decent DoT while I wait for the right opportunity to do some burst DD with a combo?
• Etc. etc.

Failing to make the right (or, "smart") decision in this fight will either leave you a) dead, or b) nearly dead; and you can't a) do DD or perform your role when you're dead (unless I have a different client installed on my PC or something), or b) are taking unnecessary/unplanned attention away from your healer(s) form the tank which risks the entire fight to begin with. And this is just with the Ifrit fight - Moogle, Strongholds, etc., have different dynamics to them and require different "smart decisions" to be made.

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^this

Adding group combos similar to FFXI and being able to have Magic Bursts for those group combos would be a great addition. The real issue SE needs to troubleshoot is fixing response times from player to server, too many times I have heard people dieing to something they were no longer standing on when the attack was triggered.

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Originally Posted by WillRiker

Are you really expecting me to believe that keeping buffs up and debuffs are important decisions? They are important, but they arent decisions. They are just as mandatory as combos are in this game. If you are going to say that wow has important decisions to be made... you couldve used better examples. Shoot, most things in wow are set into rotations that have been defined, cannoned, for years now. ei. 69696969 tanking rotation. That being said... i believe that one more layer of complexity is needed in ffxiv.

One thing to note is that all those things you mentioned took a long time to implement into wow. By comparison, this game is in its infancy.

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Yes. I play as a warlock, and when playing as an affliction warlock there are several things to note regarding debuffs.

So the general debuffs are a few moves I'll refer to as UA, C, and BD. Then there is another move which is called Haunt. Haunt is a very slow moving projectile that, when applied to the mob increases, the damage done by the previous three moves, and increases the damage of all shadow damage on that mob with a secondary debuff that stacks up to three times. To do as much damage as possible haunt needs to be on the boss 100% of the time, but you also need to minimize the amount of overlap you spend casting it. Simply for haunt to be applied you have to decide how far away you are standing at, and how long it will take for the projectile to hit the target. If you wait too long then dots are ticking without being applied by haunt - and the shadow damage debuff risks falling out - if you do it too early then you're just wasting your time, and if another debuff is running out [generally UA], then you have to make a decision of how to best use both moves to keep dps as high as possible.

In itself, Haunt acts like mechanics of combos, but still allows players the ability to make good or bad decisions, rather than forcing them into a set decision. A normal opening moveset, btw, is 2, 1, control+5, control+g, control+f, "click", 3,4,7, 2, 2, 1, 3 - and from there it is dot maintenance, being aware of trinket/enchant effects, boss mechanics that make it more vulnerable and require a reapplication of my debuffs to take advantage of that, etc. [hopefully I don't need to continue to go into detail, but it's much more than just "2,3,2,3,2,3,2,3,2,3," over and over]

I also realize, as you note, that WoW's battle state has taken years to develop [affliction has actually been nerfed in difficulty several times], but new games are being released with battle systems more complex than FFXIV's, which has been out for over one year now, and the strategy within the battle system itself needs to be turned up to keep players engaged. Hopefully with my posts you can see how WoW's system is one that is layered with depth of understanding levels -also known as Blizzard's mantra - "Easy to learn, hard to master", and that's something that should be adopted into FFXIV, but really isn't right now.

With that said I am not encouraging the game to become like WoW [with the exception of tight movement controls] - just to include more strategic decisions within the battle system itself.

and fuma, what a glorious day,lol

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Originally Posted by Fuma

^this

Adding group combos similar to FFXI and being able to have Magic Bursts for those group combos would be a great addition. The real issue SE needs to troubleshoot is fixing response times from player to server, too many times I have heard people dieing to something they were no longer standing on when the attack was triggered.

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I somewhat agree with this, however group combos also serve as a permanent limitation to what players do within fights. I would rather see some sort of unique team limit break mechanic that is cast less frequently than WS were in FFXI to prevent the system from limiting players. Perhaps, the reason I saw limitations with FFXI's system of it was because even that game had less than optimized network response.

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Originally Posted by Platinumstorm

I somewhat agree with this, however group combos also serve as a permanent limitation to what players do within fights. I would rather see some sort of unique team limit break mechanic that is cast less frequently than WS were in FFXI to prevent the system from limiting players. Perhaps, the reason I saw limitations with FFXI's system of it was because even that game had less than optimized network response.

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Yea that's the one thing I do miss about WoW was the automatic response from my abilities. I do not like the delay from them as I may be trying to squeeze them in before Ifrit leaps and so on.

Also Id like to state, I do like the direction this game is taking thus far and I don't want it to become another WoW clone. If I wanted that I'd go play SWTOR (pew pew!).

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Originally Posted by Platinumstorm

I somewhat agree with this, however group combos also serve as a permanent limitation to what players do within fights. I would rather see some sort of unique team limit break mechanic that is cast less frequently than WS were in FFXI to prevent the system from limiting players. Perhaps, the reason I saw limitations with FFXI's system of it was because even that game had less than optimized network response.

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WoW dps classes each have one skill rotation for top damage. I don't understand how that's different from having the combo system in ffxiv. If you aren't doing the best rotation you're not doing the best dmg you can do. That's some intense decision making..... =)

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Originally Posted by Platinumstorm

I somewhat agree with this, however group combos also serve as a permanent limitation to what players do within fights.

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So what specifically would you suggest they implement that would deter a "permanent limitation to what players do within fights" that either a) could be executed in such a fashion that would prevent the black and white "you're doing it wrong" or "you're doing it right" (e.g., rotations in WoW, Rift, etc.), and b) that would require the use of "making smart decisions"?

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Originally Posted by Platinumstorm

I would rather see some sort of unique team limit break mechanic that is cast less frequently than WS were in FFXI to prevent the system from limiting players.

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You mean like the strategic use and coordinating of 2-hour abilities in battles such as Fenrir, Dynamis Lord, etc. etc.? (I know there's a BUNCH more, just can't think of any off the top of my head atm). I too would like something similar in FFXIV!

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Originally Posted by Platinumstorm

Perhaps, the reason I saw limitations with FFXI's system of it was because even that game had less than optimized network response.

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Perhaps, but then again network limitations and combo/gameplay mechanics are two different things (however, shoddy client/server communications can/will/do greatly affect any and all gameplay mechanics).

I just don't see how you can say there's a lack of opportunities to "make smart decisions" in FFXIV, but in WoW everything you do is a "smart decision"... like remembering to repeat the rotation 20 times; I just don't see it. Yeah, smash-button games like WoW/Rift you have a rotation and it's more involved than "2,3,2,3,2,3,2", but even if it's "1,2, Ctl+2, Alt+9, 3,2, 1" it's still:

"1,2, Ctl+2, Alt+9, 3,2, 1"
...and then...
"1,2, Ctl+2, Alt+9, 3,2, 1"
...and then...
"1,2, Ctl+2, Alt+9, 3,2, 1"
...and then...
NO "AND THEN", THE MOB'S DEAD! Oh, I wasn't paying attention... o.O

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Originally Posted by Fuma

^this

Adding group combos similar to FFXI and being able to have Magic Bursts for those group combos would be a great addition. The real issue SE needs to troubleshoot is fixing response times from player to server, too many times I have heard people dieing to something they were no longer standing on when the attack was triggered.

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group combos are needed to finally balance the game. If the most powerful attacks were made from 1 of each DD class combined then maybe each class could serve a better role in endgame instead of just selecting which classes is the best dps point for point.

i thought skills chains were coming in 1.21 but im prob wrong.

still not seeing your argument on how wow requires constant decisions while ffxiv doesnt. Being able to consistantly execute LNC's 3 move WS combo on ifrit requires far more decisions than any rotation based combat system i have played so far.

Since melees need to worry about enemy centered aoe's, they have more decisions to make. A good LNC can still put up very respectable numbers than a thm on Ifrit. I do. But, it takes a lot more skill than watching for cracks before casting Thunder > Thundara. That alone indicates that there are a lot of decisions to be made for melees. And they have a great deal of decisions to make so that they can execute a 3 part combo, without letting the combo timer run out before completed.

If anything I think that Archers/THM combos need to be more complex, instead of Melees combos being dumbed down to Archer/thm combo status.