Whistle System
The whole whistle system is cool, as it's supposed to be a reversed Inner Quiet for Synthesis instead of Quality, but as everyone's said since it's release it's currently much too double edged for what you're getting out of it. I'd really like to see some buffs or changes made to it to make it a little more enticing to use. I'm not asking for all these changes to be made (that would make it overpowered) but maybe just one would be great.
Change #1: Reduce all of the CP costs for it by 30-50%. It feels like a gigantic CP hog and all you get out of it is some minor buffs to Synthesis. you can get even more progress out of Synth w/o using it thanks to Rapid Synth II / Piece by Piece and for far less CP in the big picture.
Change #2: Adjust the Synthesis gain from +50 potency to EITHER +100/+150/+200 potency for their respective stacks, or +50%/+75%/+100% potency (multiplicative) for their respective stacks. Currently the bonus means nothing to people who use Rapid Synth as the gain is very minor, but this buff would make it more enticing for all Synthesis abilities regardless of base potencies.
Change #3: Remove CP cost for Crafter Heart OR lower the CP cost and Good rates while making the buff permanent as long as Whistle is active.
Mainhand/Offhand
Probably a bit controversial but this is more of a gameplay change to help break up monotony and grind a little bit. Part of me is on board, part of me isn't so don't roast me alive if you don't like it haha! But I'd like to see a finer line of gameplay differences between Primary tools(currently used for 70/80 Durability crafts) and Offhand tools(currently used on 35/40 material crafts). One idea would be to grant certain abilities to be only used for certain tools. Such as Tricks of the Trade only being used on primary crafts or Muscle Memory only working on Offhand tools. Just idea, haven't really thought TOO much about it though. would like to see what everyone says about it.
Second Quality Bar
This would be the biggest change, but I think it would be a great "end game" for crafters to push into a second quality bar after completing a 100% HQ craft. NOT to be another increase in stats, but instead the second Quality Bar would open up your overmeld slots instead. Pushing two quality bars for current meta, I think, would be nearly impossible but instead open up crafters to try and push their ability and luck to see how many Materia slots they can open up. Here's just a quick idea on how it could work.
-First, reaching 100% Quality will "lock" into place so you aren't worried about losing your HQ anymore.
-After reaching 100% Quality, you can activate an ability that resets quality back to zero (Current buffs, stats, and HQ is still locked in though!) and you lose one of your two open materia slots, and the other four are obtained through pushing the second quality bar. The reason for the ability is so that if you don't have confidence of getting any more quality, you don't have to activate it and still get your two freebie materia slots (but remember, using the reset causes your to lose ONE of those freebie slots so it's a gamble to get it back).
-The % by the end of the craft will be the chance you get a materia slot. The percentages also work sequentially (correct word usage?) meaning if you get 40% then you get a 40% chance to unlock a slot. If passed, then the next slot is rolled. If failed then no more slots will unlock. Kind of like the doors in Aquapolis?
Glamour Polish system
This one is pretty straightforward. I'd really like for crafters to wipe the stats from a piece of equipment and allow it to be stored into the Armoire for future glamour and safe keeping so that we don't have to throw away that pretty raid gear we worked so hard to get, only for it to be junk in the next update. They could even add a little bit of crafter gameplay to it somehow to make it a little more fun only if it wasn't a pain in the butt?
Curious what you guys think about these ideas? I know there's probably some controversy behind some of them but still I'd like to see any concerns or adjustments on them. If people like them maybe we could push to get the devs to implement them? :confused:
Four things I'd like to see implemented
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09-10-2017, 05:30 AMKazzoeyFour things I'd like to see implemented
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09-10-2017, 04:44 PMKaurhz
Really nice idea on the second quality bar, I personally wouldn't mind seeing something of this nature. Though if I understand it correctly, it would get fairly broken if we were able to open up the additional materia slots as guaranteed. HW end game stuff would be a joke to where you'd essentially have Ornate Ironworks. I'm also fairly confident when I say it's already possible to hit 25k quality, or thereabouts on Serge/Twinsilk gear from all NQ mats. Having the second quality bar being means to achieving 'ornate' status is a little drastic, rather I'd just have it to where the second quality bar is a means just to getting 1 additional guaranteed slot, rather than all of them. Assuming I'm correct that ornate gear does allow for penta grade VI then applying the same to Twinsilk crafting gear means you could reach some massive stats, possibly even skipping straight to 3* on Twinsilk.
I think the whistle system needs to go, and to replace it just add more speciality actions usable under Initial Prep, and have Initial Prep be a 3 stack buff, to where you can use speciality actions 3 times. This, if played correctly would put monocrafters in a really good position. :) -
09-10-2017, 08:00 PMKsenia
As said, surplus quality bar is an interesting idea but we have all had the Great strides, Innovation come up good and even excellent for an 11 stack BB. It's possible to see 500% of a quality bar if you have all your ducks in a row.
I don't get why we are still brute forcing the progress bar the same way we were in ARR when they have all but abandoned that for the Quality bar. Some sort of option on using Proc for either, or instead of always Quality would be nice to see. -
09-10-2017, 09:27 PMChameleonMS
Second Quality Bar:
I love the idea of adding additional guaranteed slots to gear with excessive quality. I agree with Kaurhz we should not be able to make Orate but one extra slot would be fantastic. This would help the current state of HQ gathering, as it has been basically dead for a very long time now.
Glamour Polishing:
Anything to assist glamour without having us bulk up our retainers is good idea. -
09-10-2017, 11:37 PMSilverbane
They idea of having an extra guaranteed slot for melds is fun, these could be called "MasterPiece" (MP), giving us three quality tiers, NQ, HQ, and MP. However, I'm not sure I like the idea of MP being a reward for getting lucky, e.g., an Excellent proc on your Byregots. I'm also not sure the present system would support a third quality level for items.
What the present system does support is "Vintage" items - items with an extra guaranteed meld slot that are different items, not just different quality levels. Vintage items currently int he game require dungeon drops IIRC but that doesn't have to be the case with new Masterpiece items. Instead, Masterpiece items could just be much harder to make, and (I think) require the use of luck-based skills like HT, so that a simple fixed rotation (even something as relatively fixed as Rath's) wouldn't be likely to get you an HQ Masterpiece. That way, a Masterpiece item would require a good understanding of crafting to HQ.
Of course, some gate on how many MP items someone can craft might be nice too. That would prevent the MP market from being dominated by a few crafters. The lore reason for that would be that MP items take a lot out of a crafter, so they need to rest before they are capable of making another. You'd get MP Allowances that charged up over time (like Leve allowances) with a modest maximum (like 6), so that weekend FFXIV warriors could get some MP love.
Note that in my conceptualization of the idea, the only difference between an Masterpiecve Zelkova Earing and a regular Zelkova Earing would be the extra guaranteed meld slot, the difficulty to make, and the need to consume an MP allowance to make it, so the MP version would enjoy a price premium, but would never be a sine qua non for BIS. -
09-11-2017, 12:20 AMCaimie_TsukinoMany crafters on this forum including myself had done some pretty thorough analysis on the Whistle System when it first came out. The system basically consists of 3 skills: (1) Satisfaction, (2) Trained Hand, and (3) Nymeia's Wheel (details please visit my Heavensward crafting guide Chapter 41). If you consider it this way, then (1) Satisfaction is already a CP-gaining skill, (2) Trained Hand's CP cost has just been reduced by half, (3) Nymeia's Wheel is already currently one of the most CP-conserving skills for durab recovery. So if we just "look at the surface", it seems there isn't any skill to further reduce CP cost (But that's not true! See below!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
In my personal opinion, I feel that the current Whistle System's biggest issue is that it is very luck dependent... On the sense that if you're unlucky, you will be burning a lot of CP for nothing. Firstly, you gotta be really lucky to have the W stack go down to 3 to retrieve 45 CP back into your CP pool using Satisfaction. If the W stack does not reach 3, that means you can only get back 30 CP at most from 2x Satisfaction. The WWYW system cost 36 CP to activate, and both Trained Hand and Nymeia's Wheel, despite their potent powers, cost CP. So at the end, if you are only lingering around W7 or 8 at the end of your rotation, you're pretty much doomed. You'd have spent 36 CP on WWYW, got back only 15 CP from a Satisfaction, perhaps spent another 16 CP on Trained Hand... You'd have only 1 chance (at W9) to push progress with bonus. And at the end, despite Nymeia's Wheel costing only 18 CP, there's unlikely to be any extra CP to be spent this way, especially when W7 or 8 means it only recovers 20 durab.
To resolve this issue, one can either (a) make those damn "Goods" pop up more, and make sure there's at least "Goods" to send the W stack down to 6 or lower in any rotation, (b) just as Kazzoey said, reduce CP cost for things. Now I mentioned above that (1) is actually a CP-gaining skill, and there's not much room to further reduce CP cost for (2) and (3) already. But one can still BUFF (1) Satisfaction. e.g. making it 20 CP instead of 15 CP. Alternatively, one can also reduce the CP cost of WWYW itself, from 36 CP to perhaps 20-ish CP. This will reduce the damage done when the W stacks are unable to go down to 6 or lower. Of course, this isn't the best thing to resolve the "luck" part. Because if you can't get the W stacks to go 6 or lower, than you really can't make the most out of WWYW anyway. But at least it won't HURT AS BAD.
I'm all for this. I'd say even DOUBLE the progress for any progress action during W9/6/3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
This skill was dead from the start. I'm not even sure how to make it viable while not game-breaking. People who had tried it before find it really "shxtty" as they didn't get enough Goods to justify its usage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
Interesting idea, but unlikely to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
Someone on the forum had suggested similar ideas before, and I think it is viable. Currently, it is very distinctly "NQ or HQ", with no middle ground. So previously someone suggested "higher quality bar = more materia slots". Your idea here is similar, except that it's a second quality bar. So it won't affect the existing NQ/HQ system, but will add another dimension of play. I'm all for this. It can make the game more fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
I believe any suggestion that has to do with allowing us to put more stuff into the Armoire is going to be welcomed by anyone. SE, please, let us put more stuff into the Armoire!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
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09-11-2017, 02:34 AMElamys
The mainhand/offhand tools is not evenly split across classes either and doesn't seem to be for anything other than cosmetic. IE leatherworking uses their mainhand for MOST 35/40 durability crafts, and offhand for completed items, it's the same for carpenter. And yet, there are items where that flips completely. I'm not really sure what they were going for here.
I REALLY like the idea of the second quality bar.
Glamour polishing would be useful for raid gear, but really, they just need the allow us to store more things in the armoire. The fact that it removes customization when you store items will already keep raiders from using it as additional storage. -
09-11-2017, 04:48 AMNezerius
The second quality bar would be an absolutely terrible idea, both due to costumer expectations, and especially with the way grade VI materia works right now. Just like people will be expecting a crafter to HQ an item right now, they will be expecting a crafter to get a piece to at least have 4 guaranteed materia slots. Anything less will be considered a failure, due to the fact that an item with 3 guaranteed materia slots will have a lower amount of possible stats, since you can only overmeld one grade VI materia.
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09-11-2017, 06:09 AMElamys
The grade VI materia problem could easily be resolved by "can only be attached to normal meld slots". Not many people are paying the markup for the guaranteed meld slots on the Ornate gear, so considering this mechanic basically already exists, it doesn't seem like it would ruin anything.
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09-11-2017, 10:30 AMNezeriusThat'd increase the problem to players expecting 5 guaranteed materia slots (aka 2 full quality bars) when getting someone to craft a piece for them. Unless by "normal meld slots" you mean the first two base materia slots, which would kinda make the entire thing almost pointless. You'd just be saving a small bit of gil from overmelding grade V materia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamys
Not many pay the markup on Ornate gear because it's really expensive, which has everything to do with the fact that getting 3 lines in WT is extremely rare, even more so when you have to consider that you'd also need to have the correct piece as reward. If crafters produced this type of gear, it'd never be as rare as obtaining Ornate gear. If it were, no one would really bother with it to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamys
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09-11-2017, 11:10 AMMirarara
Whistle is absolutely OP if craft became harder, it's not useless. There's a rotation involving whistle which allow infinite quality for any craft. I don't think any change is needed, or in fact, a nerf is actually warranted for it.
I have mixed feeling for the second quality bar, because as stated by many people here, buyer will just be expecting the best quality from crafter, and a high tier crafter will easily dominate the market by selling those item at cheap price to force lower tier crafter out of business. It will not be a problem to me and some omnicrafter here, but certainly a big problem to most crafter. -
09-11-2017, 06:50 PMSolarra
Glamour Polish - yes, to this, the armoire is a nice idea but so little goes into it.
Extra quality bar - I like this idea but think I'd prefer the simpler version suggested above that gives you the chance to add one extra slot.
I can't really comment on the whistle system as I've never used it. -
09-12-2017, 12:13 AMAdamZSay nothing of the fact of right side pieces. Crafted gear is currently BiS for tanks, think how OP it would be if you could cap STR on it by melding 4 or 5 STR 6's on it. Or the crazy health pools everyone would have if they could have 100+ Vit on all there right side for prog. We would be back to the i110 like meta. The idea would not only need a crafting rework, it would need a full rework of the melding system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezerius
It is not that bad from a left side point of view, we see that with Tales right now, and no one really values it that much more, that just goes back then to your expectations point, and it would really just screw crafters over. O great, I get to spend even more time crafting one piece. -
09-12-2017, 01:48 AMChameleonMSYour concerns are easily handleable. All SE has to do is lower the stat caps on such gear pieces this would be allowed on. There are many pieces right now which have say +74 Direct Hit as the max. Thus, a person has to choose, do I meld 2 Direct Materia (and not get full value for the materia) or 1 Direct Hit and 1 Crit Hit. The same logic could easily be extended to STR / VIT / etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamZ
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09-12-2017, 04:40 AMAdamZAs far as I can tell gear you are referring to, has direct hit is the lower secondary, and therefore you can only meld to the max stat of any secondary on that piece, for example the goon lost allagan pants (melded have 249 Det and 174 direct hit, so you can meld 75 direct hit, that is cause all stats cap at 249, and the meldable amount is just 249 less amount currently on the piece). Please show me a example of a piece where the max cap of a meldable stat is lower then the cap for that piece of gear. I was trying to find one, as your statement is news to me, but I could not locate one.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChameleonMS
See my final point on the complete rework of the melding system, I am agreeing it is achievable, just it would be a very major overhaul. Even your solution makes right side pieces BiS in many cases, as you could just put in Direct, Crit, Det, SS, VIT/STR (Minus the capped stat) at +40 still, even if they set each of those to only cap at 40. It would just prevent players from having choices, which will like just put off a few min/maxers out there. -
09-12-2017, 05:05 AMKsenia
The key flaw in suggesting the over quality, second bar raises the standard on crafting is it assumes we are currently competing to make HQ gear and that hasn't been the case for 20 level.
We compete with main and side quest reward choice and HQ markets being destroyed before they ever happen with such rewards. The only reason any HQ markets have legs is through crafting leve requirements, crafting GC daily requirements and many of the side quests simply being more of a PITA than the slot warrants.
We don't compete right now as crafters, as said we haven't for 20 levels. Opening 3rd and up slots would allow us to again. The raise the bar debate was answered for us when SE lowered it by handing all our stuff out for kill 10 boar quests -
09-12-2017, 06:37 AMChameleonMSThe pieces right with limited stat caps right now are in the non-craftable gear area. I was using them as an example of what can be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamZ
We are talking about an idea for a new feature. Thus, direct examination of existing craftable gear stat caps would be pointless. By the time this feature would be added in a future patch the iLVL would increase would make the current gear pointless. If they added such a feature as being talked about the stat caps on that future gear should be adjusted to overcome your concern. -
09-12-2017, 07:15 AMKazzoeyYea I thought about that. Currently NQ is UNACCEPTABLE to anybody who isn't in it for glamour so HQ is the only meta there is. I figured adding in more materia slots would indeed raise standards of purchases. But unfortunately I think the majority of people here missed a critical part of how I said the 2nd bar would work (not that it's an excuse, the "against" reasoning still applies) by you have to use an ability to activate the 2nd Quality bar. Meaning you'd have to hit the 100% quality cap and stop to activate the ability to go into the 2nd bar. To my knowledge, most people can't hit 100% Quality without a Great Strides crit and losing your Inner Quiet (Star Crafts, that is). That way a "Good" or "Excellent" will not go through into the second bar and you must start from scratch, and with even lower CP to boot. But as I said, that's no excuse about the crafted meta. ALTHOUGH now that I think about it, only going up to a possible 3-4 open materia as opposed to a full five would still be acceptable as the first or 2nd Overmeld isn't too difficult to hit anyways. So a single materia slot on it's own would be a significant buff to help crafted gear reach it's potential and compete with Tome gear. Although, even using that "expectations" logic, you can still reach that degree of stats without this system in place, it's just difficult and expensive. This will simply just lessen the pain of reaching it's potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezerius
A full Penta-Ornate is probably overkill, but reaching for a third (MAYBE 4th) slot by completing a fresh Quality Bar with an exhausted CP/Durability pool would be balanced. The point I was making is that the 2nd bar would be likely impossible to fill unless you have the luck of the devil and with that level of difficulty, standard HQ would still dominate the markets. That way, reaching crafted gear's current potential will lean ever so slightly more in favor of those with talent instead of luck. And by the time they ever do implement a system like this, we would already be in the age of Grade VII materia and they can bend the system to adjust for it as they please. They also have the rights to simply adjust current systems and stats as they see fit anyways or make the "unlocked" slots not count as "base" slots so Grade VI and beyond materia don't work past the 2nd Slot without a true Ornate set. -
09-12-2017, 08:40 AMChameleonMSThis would definitely give more value to HQ materials as you would need the initial granted Quality to have enough quality touches to achieve the second HQ bar. And it would also pretty much require a crafter to use Byregot's Miracle on the first bar to have enough IQ stacks to get 100% on the second bar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
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09-12-2017, 08:47 AMNezeriusCrafters will just resort to using HQ mats. Using the current 2-star crafted chest as an example, all-HQ mats will give a starting quality of 7911/15837, so it wouldn't be unfathomable for the possibility of reaching 100% before using up all your Inner Quiet stacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
You can't reach that degree of stats currently, because you literally can't overmeld a grade VI materia past the first overmeld, hence my comment on 4 guaranteed materia slots being a bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
Except it wouldn't dominate the market, just like NQ gear is useless aside from glamour purposes. If someone commissions a crafter to craft something for them, they'll always expect to get the best possible outcome. This 2nd quality bar will simply move that bar from "HQ, not NQ" to "Best amount of guaranteed meld slots, not just HQ".Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
Then what would be the point of this addition, if it'll only save you from blowing up a few grade V materia? At that point, it'll just turn around completely, and no one will bother going through the effort of using the 2nd quality bar to begin with. Which, in turn, means wasted development resources that could be spent elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
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09-12-2017, 10:11 AMKazzoeyI'm pretty sure you're thinking too ridgedly about what I was saying and trying to fit it in with current mechanics. I was saying SE has the ability to change the parameters and systems in place to accommodate for the change in the materia slot system. Simply put, they can change their game's rules in order to put a new system or mechanic in place so there wouldn't be any worry about it "not fitting in with the current day system". They had to change all kinds of things for combat classes for their new gauges and whatnot to be implemented, so they can do the same for putting in a new quality bar for crafting. It doesn't need to be shoe-horn'd in without any changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezerius
I was also stating the logic of standards is completely hypocritical because the standard wouldn't hardly change anyways since you can still penta-meld and sell equipment. All it's doing is making it easier for the person to finish the melds and feel more inclined for doing so without spending another fat chunk of gil to accomplish that. If players would demand that there be a higher standard of melds available, why aren't they demanding that the materia already be affixed? It's the same end result, but nobody wants to be the poor sucker who has to sit there spending absurd amounts of gil and hours on end trying to overmeld. Also due to how difficult I proposed it should be, very few people would actually require a crafter to accomplish such a feat. The end result would be the same thing we have now, the means to reaching that end result would simply be less painful for the customer and more fun for the crafter. -
09-12-2017, 12:12 PMNezeriusFrom what I can tell of the materia change in 4.0, the grade VI materia is giving much more stats because they can't be overmelded past the first overmeld, so the 4th/5th overmeld has to be done with grade V or lower (which you get showered with by playing the game)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
I'd hardly call overmeld DoW/M grade V materia to be "another fat chunk of gil", unless you also allow grade VI to be melded onto these extra guaranteed slots. In which case, having more materia slots would definitely become the new standard of crafted gear. There's nothing hypocritical about that, since I'm sure you can see how big a difference there is between a piece pentamelded with grade VI, and a piece pentamelded with 3x grade VI and 2x grade V.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
Because it's not part of the actual recipe. The crafting part doesn't involve melding materia, just the overmelding afterwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
Most non-crafters don't really care about how difficult something is, they care about results. They want to get the most out of the materials they're giving to a crafter. Getting anything less than the most possible guaranteed materia slots would just make them feel like they lost out of something, just like something would feel miffed about getting a NQ version instead of a HQ version of a crafted piece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzoey
All in all, I'd rather they spend their development time on revamping the materia system itself, to make it more interesting to start with, rather than developing a band-aid feature for crafted gear that makes it easier to deal with the current materia system. -
09-12-2017, 06:06 PMMirararaMany crafter who don't participate in the selling of competitive product don't understand that it's really easy to kick other's out of business as long as you can craft something better. I agree that if it's possible to create more materia slot, all the current HQ product will simply went out of market because there are crafters that will undercut the existing HQ market with the extra materia slot equipment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezerius
It also allow botters to earn more gil because they can easily compete with the honest player by mass crafting HQ material. -
09-13-2017, 07:33 AMKseniaAll you need to do is look at markets on any gear 50 and up. None of the HQ has signatures. It's quest reward. We have a sprout tank in FC and when he hit 50 I made him a complete 115 set. When he hit 51 I started looking at the 52 set for him and the entire left side can be bought for 90K. (I'm quite sure I could have done the same with the 50 set, I just didn't look in to it) The amount of holy water needed to make that side with sundry vendor prices is triple the cost of buying it. Again, none of those pieces have a signature. In the case of hallowed ramie, the cloth is on the market for 300 gil each, HQ? They take 30K each to make as well. Crushed by desynth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirarara
This trend started with HW and continues.
Current markets are dominated by spiritbond activity. Even the Kugane leve turn in items are crashing. If you had a million Gil sitting around you could go from 60 to 70 and never have a tool equipped in any given craft and again, every item you turn in has no signature. You can buy thousands of NQ or HQ Molybdenum Ingots, Ore or Zelkova Lumber, Logs at 60K a stack because people are gathering and quick synthing them to SB gear. I've converted two sets of 70 crafting gear. I have 0 Materia VI to show for it but boat loads of parts that have no purpose. For every shortage they manufacture they create 2 gluts.
In reality this idea the OP mentions is just another glut that will evolve because people won't convert a penta melded set, even if the slots were open meld slots. So they won't need more than one. They will revert to HQ standard, even NQ if it's cheaper than NPC costs and trash meld it for faster spiritbonding. The idea is fine.
Final note, on Bots. I have 32 retainers. I can have up to 64. Bots in FF14 are an obsolete method of getting your account banned. There is no need to bot in this game. -
09-13-2017, 04:35 PMMirarara
Do player even buy lv 70 equipment to spiritbond? It's too cheap to just craft/buy the mat for lv 70 equipment for spiritbonding. Personally I had converted over 20 sets of crafting gear for spiritbonding, and I won't even buy it from market because the price difference is too big (even though its cheaper than NPC).
I think the market for equipment has nothing to do with those who want to spiritbond (depending on server though, as far as I know market in JP server and NA server is completely different).