Judging pull sizes

Hi everyone,

I've started doing a bit of tanking and wondered how you judge pull sizes?

I got kicked from a level 50 dungeon because apparently I wasn't pulling enough monsters - I notice most tanks don't ask at the start if everyone wants big pulls or not, so do they do it based on the other players health, sprouts etc? Or do they just try one pull and if everyone survives, keep doing that?

Thanks :)

Back when I first started playing, I would only do single pulls in dungeons I hadn't cleared before. Now that I'm more confident in my judgement, I tend to double pull first upon entering a dungeon, just to see where I stand stats-wise. If I get exploded by the mobs and we wipe? So be it, I'll just pull smaller for the rest of the run. If the healer isn't having trouble to keeping me above ~60-70% health, I go and see if I can pick up another pack. In your case I would recommend just telling everyone that you're new to tanking; statements like that let me understand the tank making small pulls.

Depending on where your tank is at in terms of level and ilevel, I would recommend going into a level 60 dungeon and telling everyone that you'll be experimenting with bigger pulls. Most 60 dungeons allow you to pull wall-to-wall without many issues in Shire gear, so you should be fine.

Hi :)

Generally I do a quick glance at health/gear and classes and go from there. If the group looks solidly built I don't worry about going through asking and just run and grab (of couse if we die I appologise). Otherwise I will ask, or just do smaller pulls unless complained at.

Frankly as a tank you shouldn't be kicked for smaller groups, everyone gets to play their class as they like and I can't stand when people kick people for not playing how they want.

At the end of the day everyone should be working together to make the run as smooth as possible for all, if the white mage is uncomfortable with large pulls I am more than happy to do smaller ones, I would rather a slightly slower run then a fast run full of grumps.

I say just keep doing what you can do, you will get better with the class through practise.

The main thing is to keep a steady pace. You're leading the group. As the last mob dies glance at healers mp, if full move. While pulling keep an eye on your hp and the healers mp. If both are steadily full pull more, if they fluctuate a lot pull less.

Most importantly. Make sure your healer is following you. You'd be surprised how often you get into a rhythm, pull your next set of mobs only to notice that the healers name is now suddenly grey'd out.

I find it's kinda an unwritten rule of "I set the pace and everyone follows or wipes after which we blame the healer." A good default is double group pulls but it depends on the content. DD and Vale have both hard hitting trash and can't use our nice toys so are kinda forced to limit pulls (when synced) while on the other hand library hard big pulls were kinda expected to get it over with (lore/poetics grinding).

If there's not a lot of aoe dps potential then big pulls are counterproductive. If healer is new or not comfortable doing big then (we) don't. Hell, if you don't want to do large groups it's your choice, not that of impatient dps players. If it's something like deltascape then yeah it's kinda an hp contest for who main tanks (let's ignore the fact vit melding is still a possibility) but that's the exception rather than the rule(s) of gauging party player ability and resulting pace in the instance (especially in random parties with super variable levels of skill).

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

Hi everyone,

I've started doing a bit of tanking and wondered how you judge pull sizes?

I got kicked from a level 50 dungeon because apparently I wasn't pulling enough monsters - I notice most tanks don't ask at the start if everyone wants big pulls or not, so do they do it based on the other players health, sprouts etc? Or do they just try one pull and if everyone survives, keep doing that?

Thanks :)

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Kicking a tank for "low efficiency" is allways a weird spot, as they are mandatory to clean anything and pretty much the least played role.

Pull at your pace, because fine managed pulls are allways better than struggling big ones. If you get some really heavy AOE jobs (BLM/SMN/RDM comes in mind first), you can afford a bit more if your healer is not already busy. Most jobs in SB have a good AOE now, but casters stands a bit higher, and never run out of ressources to AOE.

Talk to the group, and especially talk to the healer. Take risks and own up to mistakes, I was in my first temple of the fist since launch yesterday and I pulled all of the coerls to the moss wall at the beginning - needless to say, we all died a horrible coerl death (which is the main reason why people are afraid to pull large).

This is what I said: "Damn, I definitely misjudged that, sorry for the stress<insert healer name>, I guess I'll pull smaller this time".

I generally pull two packs at a time and monitor my health and cooldowns, if I am not taking much damage I will try for a bigger pull on the next dungeon run

small pack of 3 or the entire way from point to point.....there is no middle way XD

Try to understand the other classes you're with at the time.

Depending on the level and party composition, big pulls can either be a great thing or a terrible thing.

No sense in pulling large if the level you're at and party comp you're with doesn't currently have strong AoE.

Many players almost expect big pulls these days, but in my experience, a short "heya, I cant really do big pulls yet / dont feel comfortable with it" will result in general acceptance from the players. Of course, there will always be the few odd ones that kick you regardless, but since your tankqueues are pretty much instant, you can just requeue and enjoy a propably less stressful run right thereafter.

You got kicked because you didn't pull enough, i got kicked cuz some idiot who queue with his friends thought it was more" efficient" to pull 3 mobs at a time. Just pull at your leisure and don't give a damn about what they think. If your game sense see you can pull more, do it, if you see they are very undergeared, pull 3. There's always gonna be that one douche prequeue'd team who thinks they know everything.

I really don't know how can anyone be kicked for doing smaller pulls. Yes, it's frustrating for other players, but usually not to the point "we'll better wait and hope another tank will join". Probably the only time that could happen when impatient DPS/healer pulls another pack but tank refuses to grab aggro and do all that "you pull it you tank it" move.

The only pull size is the one you are comfy do not ever put yourself in a position were you are biting off more than you can chew because you have some impatient players. The opening pull take 2-3 packs ~ 9 mobs and work how long it takes you to kill the lot. If they don't seem to die quickly and the healer is now looking like his/her hands my explode from sheer casting of heals on you, then that group can not handle large pulls end of, you revert back to 1 pack and continue that way.

You should also tell by party make up if you will be able to get this done in a multi pull run, if you have 2x Dragoons then no, your wasting more time dealing with large pulls. If you have a SUM/BM with a RM sure go wild both of those casters are not going to be in the way and can use AOE.

Remember DPS that require themselves to be positional for their attacks can't do shit when they are having to move around because you have that many AOE angles to avoid.

Also if you are going to run and do multiple pulls to get the clear quicker take an healer you are confident in.

When I'm not sure on a pull I pay attention to the healer. As they're usually behind you and if they keep running, it's a clear sign to keep going. And I mean in a "I thought I you were still pulling" and now a "I'll pull for you" keep running. Take Bardam's for example, some healers hate big pulls there. I'll pull those three hoppits and watch if the healer stops or run past me. And nothing is a bigger stop sign than a SCH using their Salted Earth. I had a WHM more or less guide me with Asylum once. One of the smoothest runs.

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The only pull size is the one you are comfy

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No. Just no. The only way to become better is by pushing your limits. You don't become a better runner by jogging from the chair to the kitchen. You don't become better tank by pulling one pack at a time how you're used to in that first Sastasha's run. Try doing slightly more every time, analyze why you have failed if you did and how to do it better next time. "Do only comfy pulls" is a way to waste party time. If you don't want to work hard, don't register for duty. We have enough bad players everywhere already.

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if you have 2x Dragoons then no, your wasting more time dealing with large pulls

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It's heavily depends on a level. In low dungeons, where lots of jobs won't have good AoE, that is true. In 50+, however, any combination of jobs have enough AoE abilities to make big pull worth it. Assuming DPS players and healer actually use those abilities, ofc.

Should report the party for abuse of the system. Pull depending on how comfortable you feel, at your own pace. If they are keen on waiting for a tank that actually bothered to check 'join dungeon in progress' for 30 minutes, its their choice.

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Originally Posted by MahoSenshi

No. Just no. The only way to become better is by pushing your limits.

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So? What makes you think the average player is really interested in getting better? This isn't some kind of competiton.
I am sure I am not the only one who thinks "good enough" is indeed good enough. If I can get through a dungeon without any wipes then it was good enough. Only if we wipe is there any need to get better.

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It's heavily depends on a level. In low dungeons, where lots of jobs won't have good AoE, that is true. In 50+, however, any combination of jobs have enough AoE abilities to make big pull worth it. Assuming DPS players and healer actually use those abilities, ofc.

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Sort of. The only type of AoE attacks Dragoons get hit enemies in a straight line in front of them - which means if the mobs aren't lined up nicely DRGs might as well not have any AoE attacks at all.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

So? What makes you think the average player is really interested in getting better? This isn't some kind of competiton.

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This isn't about being a pro raider, it's about learning how to play the game. The OP asked for advice on how to do big pulls, they didn't come complaining about being kicked. The kick brought them here out of confusion, and the response from that was "How do I do better?". I don't agree with the kick and it was not valid in the slightest, but I admire OP for stepping up and using it as a self-reflection of their abilities, and we as a community should be supporting that. Telling the OP not to push themselves is perpetuating a bad mentality, and we should instead be helping each other improve and perform to the best of our ability.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Sort of. The only type of AoE attacks Dragoons get hit enemies in a straight line in front of them - which means if the mobs aren't lined up nicely DRGs might as well not have any AoE attacks at all.

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That's not an excuse to not AOE, if there are 9 enemies and a DRGs AOE hits 5 of them, then that's still more damage than a single target attack would do, AOE is best for ALL jobs under the right circumstances. Dragoon has access to Doom Spike, Dragonfire Dive (not line AOE), Geirskogul, and Nastrond for AOE damage, it is not exempt from doing AOE damage.

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Sort of. The only type of AoE attacks Dragoons get hit enemies in a straight line in front of them - which means if the mobs aren't lined up nicely DRGs might as well not have any AoE attacks at all.

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Except for Dragonfire Dive. And it's a tank job to cluster mobs as compact as possible for melee AoEs. Which returns us to the topic of "good enough" vs "try harder". So one can either pull one pack at a time because its comfy and they can do it while watching Netflix or munching something (and what if dungeon will take an hour, whatever) or stop wasting everyone's time and pull more, completing run in 15 minutes. Your choice.

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

Hi everyone,

I've started doing a bit of tanking and wondered how you judge pull sizes?
)

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Big pull everything if you fail then go back to small pulls and do what other tanks dont do plan your pulls around hg, living dead, and hologom you can usually get about three in per dungeon which is well enough. Dont use them as an oh shit button use them on large pulls that you know will buy you more survival time.

Also as a tank use your aoe if your gona big pull use the tools you have, on palidan three or more adds spam TE, if your on drk pre 50 use dark passanger even tho its trash now, then use drain , quietous, dulurium extension on blood price, salted earth when its up on every pull for drk. Make sure you always have df cool downs up so if you have like three adds I wouldnt even worry about df cool downs , dont use ur big df cool downs on bosses unless you know they hit hard but most of the time they dont have tank busters and just auto attack so use the ones with the shortest df cool downs save them for the trash pulls. Also on warrior besserk overpower, heavy swing, maim, eye, overpower spam , if your feeling good about yourself decimate.

But also look to see what cool downs healers are using or which heals they are doing if they are just using cure 1, benefic 1 , with no regens are shields then thats probably a dangerous healer. If they not using their buffs like rouse, or thin air, largesses, syngerty on astro then ur runnin a risk with a healer that juse uses basic heals thinkin it will get the job done on large pulls. But the level 50 dungeons hit like paper so I wouldnt even be worried about them to much and they go down super fast. Excuse my spelling but you can look up the moves I mention for each job.

As a tank, gauge your party and your healer. not every group is effective for large pulls depending on the dungeon level.

As for you getting kicked, jokes on them. You have the insta queues. I don't agree personally with kicking due to smaller pulls. If a tank wants to pull small so be it. Id rather the tank be comfortable than overpull and wipe repeatedly.

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

Hi everyone,

I've started doing a bit of tanking and wondered how you judge pull sizes?

I got kicked from a level 50 dungeon because apparently I wasn't pulling enough monsters - I notice most tanks don't ask at the start if everyone wants big pulls or not, so do they do it based on the other players health, sprouts etc? Or do they just try one pull and if everyone survives, keep doing that?

Thanks :)

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Don't sweat it, pull what you're comfortable with and what you think your gear can handle. I've lost count of the number of doofus healers who call for big pulls only to let me die because they were too busy dpsing. If someone's dramatic enough to call a vote kick over it, then screw 'em, it's not like you're going to remember their names. Let them enjoy their meaningless power trip.

Being that big pulls didn't really become the thing until towards the end of Heavensward, you really need to pull what you can handle.
Heavensward mind set of big pulls really needs to go away. A lot of the aoes that were once a staple in big pulls have been nerf'd via dmg reduction or cost mp/tp cost increases. I personally have found that the 1-2 group pull runs are faster, smoother and less stressful on both me (as a tank and as a healer).
Understanding what a mob can do to you as a tank is also very important, debuffs and other attacks can wipe you really quick. I few examples would be the bird pack in Bardam's Mettle right after the 1st boss, the zu in that pack can hit you for 23k mitigated. As well as Kugane Castle with the summoner pulling in more mobs that would you really need to fight.

A lot of tanks I see in Stormblood have never played healer so they don't understand the stress and annoyance of some of the bigger pulls.

Also avoid bigger pulls in the lower dungeon. Not much point to doing this with the lack of any real aoes anyways.

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

Hi everyone,

I've started doing a bit of tanking and wondered how you judge pull sizes?

I got kicked from a level 50 dungeon because apparently I wasn't pulling enough monsters - I notice most tanks don't ask at the start if everyone wants big pulls or not, so do they do it based on the other players health, sprouts etc? Or do they just try one pull and if everyone survives, keep doing that?

Thanks :)

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Well pull the amount of mobs that you can control and then pull the rest on top of that. ;)

But seriously pull as much as you are comfortable with and if you have more practice try to pull more if the heal and the dps in the party allows that.

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Originally Posted by Morrigu

Being that big pulls didn't really become the thing until towards the end of Heavensward, you really need to pull what you can handle.
Heavensward mind set of big pulls really needs to go away. A lot of the aoes that were once a staple in big pulls have been nerf'd via dmg reduction or cost mp/tp cost increases. I personally have found that the 1-2 group pull runs are faster, smoother and less stressful on both me (as a tank and as a healer).
Understanding what a mob can do to you as a tank is also very important, debuffs and other attacks can wipe you really quick. I few examples would be the bird pack in Bardam's Mettle right after the 1st boss, the zu in that pack can hit you for 23k mitigated. As well as Kugane Castle with the summoner pulling in more mobs that would you really need to fight.

Also avoid bigger pulls in the lower dungeon. Not much point to doing this with the lack of any real aoes anyways.

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Unless you run with a BLM they are doing some serious aoe damage :)

Understanding how ilvl sync works at different level ranges is relevant to judging pull sizes. In leveling dungeons(ie 30-49, 51-59, 61-69) gear will sync down roughly equal to the ilvl of gear obtainable in the dungeon, but no higher. Often in leveling dungeons 1-2 packs is the limit of what you can pull depending on the the tools available at that level and the competence of the group.

However Lvl 50, 60, 70 dungeons, due being balanced for level capped players(at the time), are subject to powercreep. Lvl synced gear here can be much much stronger than what the dungeon was designed for, allowing wall-to-wall pulling with relative ease, compared to leveling dungeons.

Well I'm still in the learnings of tanking and for that reason I want smaller pulls whdre I'm sure I can keep aggro and my health but that's just me.

I usually ask what everyone is comfortable with and go from there. I'll still adjust, though, depending on how it plays out. Regardless of how comfortable everyone says they are, it's pretty easy to judge how big you should be pulling before the first boss.

I don't think there is a good way to judge it, although it would be great if there was.

Some pulls, like main scenario, have a bit of a meta to them. You either know it or you don't, and you are very unlikely to just stumble onto the "correct" pull. Other pulls are dependent on the party (or individual members) performing well, and try as you may, there is no way of knowing how your party will perform prior to combat. Lastly, the "correct" pull size is often subjective. "Healer A" may like your pace. "Healer B" may think it's too fast or too slow.

A few tips:

• Work with your party, don't fight them. In dungeons, it's rare for people to get kicked for poor performance; they get kicked for not being a team player. (Ex: tank is making small pulls, group asks for larger pulls, tank refuses/ignores request, tank is kicked)
• Learn to heal. You'll get reasonable queue times, get a better understanding of what a healer goes through, and get to see how other tanks handle xyz duty.
• Be willing to fail a pull by pulling too much. Part of learning your job is figuring out what the average group is able to handle, then making adjustments on a case by case basis. Don't be afraid to break a few eggs, but do it responsibly. Strong pulls demand strong cooldowns!

I find people complain more if you pull too little compared to pulling too much and causing a wipe.

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Originally Posted by Morrigu

Heavensward mind set of big pulls really needs to go away. A lot of the aoes that were once a staple in big pulls have been nerf'd via dmg reduction or cost mp/tp cost increases.

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This isn't really true. I have seen Bards pulling 6-7k DPS on Temple of the Fist and have nearly broke 9k on Samurai myself. People only struggled initially because the bulk of players tend to hang onto their Shire gear for as long as possible. Good DPS can do monstrous amounts of damage on mass pulls.

In any case, OP. I generally start by checking the gear my healer has and do a two pack pull unless they are severely undergeared in say, Doma Castle. It's a good rule of them to always pull 5-6 mobs and pop a CD once you stop. If you're new to bigger pulls, my go to CD rotation for Dark Knight is Shadow Wall into Rampart into Convalescence + Anticipation. Try to get into the habit of using them right as the next one is about to fall off but be mindful of the mobs. If you're not taking high damage and/or they're close to death. You can hold off a CD and see how things go. For Warrior you'll want to pair Awareness and Raw Institution together otherwise just sub their big CDs in for what Dark uses. Same goes if on Paladin.

If you're a bit nervous, I recommend practicing on Gubal or Sohm Al hard. Both have great six pack pulls right at the beginning that won't smack you too hard. So that can help shake any tank anxiety you may have. If you're at 50, Haukke Manor hard and Saint Mocci are good. :)

just echoing what some have already said, jokes on them if they kicked you, you get insta queue, they? stuck waiting for tank.

Also, you will never satisfy anyone, you pull small you will annoy the "pull everything" crowds, if you pull big you will sometimes ended up with stressed healer who arent used to it.

In PUG situation/random duty if they dont ask me to pull big, my pull size will be gauged from my party kill speed of the first 2 pack of mobs that i pull and how healer can maintain my health.

I rarely see people giving tanks a hard time by pulling small though, except if the tanks gets partied with 3 premade douches, which in my experience, really really rare.