Healer DPS or no?

Simple enough, I may have started tanking but I certainly don't have remotely the level of experience most of you have. The debate rages on in the saltiest place on earth (see: healer forum) but I'm curious if tanks care whether or not their healers DPS.

I know there are details here but if possible I'd like to go with broad generalizations. I get DRK's don't enjoy Holy spam and no one wants to die because your healer tunnel visioned but in general how do you guys feel about it? You are the most effected party member in most situations after all.

In raids/extremes: It's expected. Since healing can be so planned in high level fights, room for DPS can easily be found... and if there's an enrage timer, DPS from any source helps.

Anywhere else: It's a bonus. I won't say no to a Holy/Gravity/Bane or three, but I'm not going to lambast dungeon healer #578 for not DPSing either. As long as I don't feel like I'm perpetually near death, I'm satisfied :)

If I'm the healer: Run :P

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I get DRK's don't enjoy Holy spam.

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WTF? Why? The damage done by Holy far outweighs any gauge the DRK is generating from BP.

But anyway. A healer who throws out damage feels like part of the team. A healer who stands there and casts cure a few times to top me off during the trash/bosses feels like I'm a chaperone. I get when a healer is new to certain content or getting a feel for the damage the tank takes, but there's no excuse to not throw out DoTs. If I see a healer who ONLY heals, you better bet I'm gonna make them contribute, by pulling as much as I can so the DPS can pick up the healer's slack with AOE.

Unless you plan to savage raid it doesn't matter if your healer DPS's, your tanks flash spam, your meld slots are empty, or you 1,2,3 spam with your eyes closed.

- Not DPS'ing as a healer is a personal choice
- Kicking said healers for not DPS'ing is also a personal choice (though I've never seen it happen)

However, anyone that plays their job to its maximum potential (using the jobs entire toolkit) never has to worry about silly opinions, party drama, vote kicks, or forum discussions. That makes my choice pretty easy, personally. That being said, Holy spam is always really nice but on very specific pulls (four Final Stings in Neverreap) it prevents Paladins from Shield Bashing (stunning) dangerous mob abilities since they've become immune to stun.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I get DRK's don't enjoy Holy spam

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Na, a good DRK will enjoy the fact that there is no need to mitigate any damage for 7s and delay his Blood Price DAAD Spam accordingly.

But in general, I love every healer that starts nuking mobs, it makes a run much quicker and encourages me to mitigate even better so that the healer has even more time to throw out some mad deeps.

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WTF? Why? The damage done by Holy far outweighs any gauge the DRK is generating from BP.

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Playing with pugs don't allow you to time their holy as they don"t allways follow logic or sync to your gameplay.

If you go full grit with a pug WHM and he shuts you down with holy spam during a BP + TBN moment, your dps will be severed. That's the main problem : Of course it's more effectibr than having the DRK spam AOE under BP. But it happens at an unexpected time, and effectively might waste ressources the DRK has been putting in, while condemning him to a low gameplay for the next few seconds. Effectively : that's a potential shutdown of ressources, and on big packs (like gubal's library during 3.x) the DRK with BP & BW would throw any WHM away in DPS if he doesn't get the mobs stunned.

Of course in prepared teams, the DRK might as well go gritless and Blood weapon while preparing a TBN break for the moment they will be immune stun, but that means you need to communicate or share a sequence with the DRK so he can prepare defensive gameplay for when it's worth.

I prefer that my healer dps as much as the duty and their mp will allow. I have a 70 WHM myself and I'll be leveling the other two when I can, so I'm pretty familiar with how much or little a particular instance allows.

That said, I'm not actively monitoring what they're doing outside of keeping me alive. If I notice them standing idle it may irritate me but I won't say anything. I might pull more just to make sure they have enough to do. :)

I typically don't confront anyone, but it annoys me when a healer shows they clearly have time to dps but they won't actually dps.

Personally while it's nice to see a healer doing DPS I don't get to fussed if they're not. Really I think the healers should focus on keeping themselves alive, then the tank, then the DPS, and only then focus on dpsing. The extra helps and is necessary in some fights, but not getting a tank healed or dying as a healer will cause a wipe. Also I'd argue the issue with enrage timers would only be a real one if the healer A) does NO dps during the entire fight or B) The boss gets down to like 1% and the healer wasn't dpsing as much as they could have.

I appreciate everyone's responses!

To those asking about my DRK/Holy comment I don't know anyone who mains DRK but I've heard several times in DF DRK's complaining about it. Glad to know it doesn't actually cripple you guys fully or anything though.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I appreciate everyone's responses!

To those asking about my DRK/Holy comment I don't know anyone who mains DRK but I've heard several times in DF DRK's complaining about it. Glad to know it doesn't actually cripple you guys fully or anything though.

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Honestly I thought the comment about holy and drk was a joke about their evil edginess disliking holy things and it whiffed over everyone's heads due the salt weighing them down lol

Whether or not a healer should dps depends on the situation. If they have the time and mp, then yes they should throw out dps as opposed to just standing there or over-healing. If for whatever reason they need to focus entirely on healing, then so be it.

As a DRK main, I have no problem with WHMs going nuts with Holy as long, as I don't need healing and there are more than 3 mobs. I may lose a little bit of resource gain but the stun interrupts are great for lessening damage that I take and making AoEing the pack down easier.

As far as I'm concerned if I'm not going to drop, then, like a Hawaiian picnic, go ahead and bring the spam.

If you're in a raid environment you should be DPSing, that is just the way it is. If you're not you're doing a big disservice to 7 other people.

In a dungeon, if I see a healer literally just standing there or just spamming heals on me when I don't need them, my first impulse is to do the entire dungeon out of tank stance to pick up their slack (and make all that overhealing count for soemthing). I usually won't say anything to them about it though because I'm very drama-averse.

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Originally Posted by Paiyne

Honestly I thought the comment about holy and drk was a joke about their evil edginess disliking holy things and it whiffed over everyone's heads due the salt weighing them down lol

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Oh my god I wish I had been that clever.

I enjoy the healer DPS debate as much as anyone, but I think it's best quarantined in the Healer sub-forum lest it destroy the universe.

That being said, the secret is that there is no debate: you use your GCDs that aren't spent on healing to provide supporting DPS. If you're especially good, you'll heal in such a way that you maximize your DPS windows. No one likes a lazy anything.

I may be main tank, yet I also enjoy healer, and I DPS in every dungeon and trial as much as I can.

Yes, healers should definitly DPS. They even can out-DPS tanks in dungeons, contribute ~50% damage of one DPS job without endangering any team mate's life. Don't let this opportunity gone to waste.

It annoys me when other healers ain't doing any DPS at all, healing all the time and used TWICE the mana amount than me - only healing when necessary, and overwise DPS-ing. They waste mana, which could have been damage dealt, thus resulting in faster clears.

A healer that doesn't DPS when they have the opportunity is lazy and bad, in the same vein that I believe that any tank that just sits in tank stance and spams enmity combo or AoE enmity generation is lazy and bad. Sometimes a healer has to focus on healing during those "oh crap" moments, which is one thing, but if they're standing around doing nothing or just healbotting because they want to watch netflix then they're just being a selfish anchor who wants to be carried through content.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

In raids/extremes: It's expected. Since healing can be so planned in high level fights, room for DPS can easily be found... and if there's an enrage timer, DPS from any source helps.

Anywhere else: It's a bonus. I won't say no to a Holy/Gravity/Bane or three, but I'm not going to lambast dungeon healer #578 for not DPSing either. As long as I don't feel like I'm perpetually near death, I'm satisfied :)

If I'm the healer: Run :P

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This 100%. I expect my static healers to dish out damage, but when I come across a random healer in DF, then I could care less.

I like doing big pulls, so I don't mind if the healer doesn't DPS. However, if I somehow end up dying and the healer isn't doing more damage than me, I'm freakin' done with them. lol

If the group isn't dying and you can dps... dps.

I expect healers to follow the same rule I do when tanking: I'm going to do my role first and then maximize DPS. So, keep me and the others alive, then fit in as much damage as you can. Keeping us alive does not equal cure spamming and overhealing and making sure we're above 95% HP at all times, etc. just the same way I'm not going to use 15 power slashes in a row to "get a lot of enmity to tank better" when it's not remotely required.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Simple enough, I may have started tanking but I certainly don't have remotely the level of experience most of you have. The debate rages on in the saltiest place on earth (see: healer forum) but I'm curious if tanks care whether or not their healers DPS.

I know there are details here but if possible I'd like to go with broad generalizations. I get DRK's don't enjoy Holy spam and no one wants to die because your healer tunnel visioned but in general how do you guys feel about it? You are the most effected party member in most situations after all.

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Without reading other's replies:

Healer AoE dps can certainly exceed tanks, especially White Mages, so using it is, in my book, a good idea. However, healing is more important than DPSing. Some healers don't know how to multi-task well and end up letting people die, or accidentally healing themselves because their heal was focused on the enemy they last attacked.

Another important thing, if you going to spam Holy, you better know how to avoid AoEs. I seen more WHM than I can point fingers at die because they just stand in everything as they spam Holy.

Finally: I understand "I only need one HP to live" but when you let a tank get too low in HP, he cant know if you are doing it just to optimize Benediction or because you are distracted, this may result in a wasted Living Dead/Holmgang/Hallowed Ground, and again: more than once I have died because I wasted that big cooldown earlier to a "false emergency."

Without reading other's replies:

Healer AoE dps can certainly exceed tanks, especially White Mages, so using it is, in my book, a good idea. However, healing is more important than DPSing. Some healers don't know how to multi-task well and end up letting people die, or accidentally healing themselves because their heal was focused on the enemy they last attacked.

Another important thing, if you going to spam Holy, you better know how to avoid AoEs. I seen more WHM than I can point fingers at die because they just stand in everything as they spam Holy.

Finally: I understand "I only need one HP to live" but when you let a tank get too low in HP, he cant know if you are doing it just to optimize Benediction or because you are distracted, this may result in a wasted Living Dead/Holmgang/Hallowed Ground, and again: more than once I have died because I wasted that big cooldown earlier to a "false emergency."

Keep in mind a single wipe can slow down things so badly that you may as well had not done a single point of damage.

I've co-mained tank and healer for three years now, and at least play all three healers quite competently. Not pro-level but wtv.

I'll say this: whenever I tank, I always do my best to open up DPS opportunities for healers. It is very annoying when they don't take them, specially because I know that, if I was healing and the tank was mitigating like I am, I'd be DPSing my brains out because it would be 100% safe.

So yeah, it really annoys me to see healers not DPSing, or not making use of their full toolkit in order to open up DPS windows for themselves.


That said, I never really confront them. If they ask, I'll offer my best advice with a smile. If they're a sprout in a levelling dungeon, I'll ask if they know about it and if they don't feel safe, and reassure them that it's nothing to be scared of. If I get no response, I'll just let it be.

So long as I'm not near death I'm fine with the healer dealing some damage. I'm not expecting nor demanding it of them and if they want to stand there and let the dps and myself kill things then by all means. What annoys me is when the dps start to die from the healer not healing or I get so low on hp I feel I have to pop some of my larger cds to stay alive or if I'm on Pld spam heal myself. With how much hp tanks have at end game there is no excuse for their hp to drop drastically low. I also have run as a healer in randoms so I know even bad tanks can be healed and some dps can be dished out.

A healer that does not dps is bad, a healer that delays a heal because of movement is worse, a healer that miss a live/death heal because of dpsing is trash.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

A healer that does not dps is bad, a healer that delays a heal because of movement is worse, a healer that miss a live/death heal because of dpsing is trash.

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I always a felt that a healer that can't keep their party or themselves alive would be considered bad. But then I assume thats the lovely thing about opinions.

As long as my health is within the range of 5% to 100% and the healer knows what they are doing, it's good.
A good healer would know the fight and anticipate damage spikes and would adjust my HP accordingly. Failing that I still have my tank oh-shit skill.

I take pride in needing less heals as a tank via self-mitigation/skill.

I am ok if healer is not doing dmg, and the run in dungeon will be longer

If a healer want to clear the dungeon faster then he would need to make damage especially aoe on trash pulls

That's about it

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

I always a felt that a healer that can't keep their party or themselves alive would be considered bad. But then I assume thats the lovely thing about opinions.

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Did you even read his post ?

If I'm going to bother with a proper CD rotation, especially for trash pulls, the healers damn well better DPS.

Has long as I don't die, the healer can do what they want. I don't care if I sit in the triple digits for most of the dungeon. That's what LD and TBN is for. DPS to your hearts content.

I do get a little annoyed at the opposite. If I'm sitting in the five digit range and your sitting there doing nothing, then yea a little upset. DRKs are not that squishy. I even melded Tenacity for that problem.

From a healer perspective:

DF Dungeons
If a tank does a big pull and starts using CDs , I go havok and DPS, because keeping you alive with your CDs active is easy.
As e.g. AST I will help too, stun, aoe, buff like mad and make sure everyone stays safe.
The opposite, no CDs and big pulls, I'll let you die, over and over and over, until the DDs leave or you start to play your role like you expect me to play mine.
It depends on the players really. A "new" tank won't satisfy a "good" healer and vice versa.

Raids
Can't speak for savage, haven't been there, but from my Ex experience a healer should also DPS AFTER making sure everyone is safe.

But generally speaking, no, a standard healer doesn't have to DPS.
If you want to "up" your game, do it.

Thank you for the responses guys! They have been really interesting to read in conjunction to the discussions on the healer forum.

The one big "difference" I suppose I've seen (and I am not criticizing any of you who have said it, personally I agree with you guys) is that many tanks have commented that if their healer doesn't DPS they would pull larger/drop stance/ etc. in an effort to make up for the lost healer dps.

On the healer forum the predominant argument for healersnot having to DPS (despite us not having to Cleric Stance dance anymore) is that there might be players who aren't skilled enough to keep up with both. I don't really understand this myself outside of progression maybe but if someone is not skilled enough to heal while DPSing in a 4 man dungeon I doubt they are good enough to handle a tank pulling big in his DPS stance.

Just some food for thought. Again personally I am on the tank side of this, who doesn't want a quicker clear? You guys all seem pretty respectful so I doubt you're harrassing anyone.

Again thanks for the feedback!

NO.

/10char

OK, sorry, haha.
Anyhow, I'll provide an argument to the oher side. No content in this game has healer DPS REQUIRED, and if you DPS, you may lack MP to pull some massive heals/raises if hings go south.

IF your group is skilled, and IF you're pretty certain that only minimal (or no) non-avoidable damage will come out, then go ahead. Else, being conservative about your MP is the better choice.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

and if you DPS, you may lack MP to pull some massive heals/raises if hings go south.

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If DPSing makes you so low on MP then you're doing something wrong. The only thing that can make a healer go OoM is raising people multiple times in a very short time.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

If DPSing makes you so low on MP then you're doing something wrong. The only thing that can make a healer go OoM is raising people multiple times in a very short time.

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But that's exactly my point. If you are conservative about your MP you CAN pull that kind of thing you described. If you're like halved, probably not.
I'm talking about "when things go south", not normal situations.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

But that's exactly my point. If you are conservative about your MP you CAN pull that kind of thing you described. If you're like halved, probably not.
I'm talking about "when things go south", not normal situations.

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But things shouldn't go south, especially in dungeons. And if it does, you won't wipe because the healer used its MP on DPS and couldn't raise everyone, you wipe because everyone else fucked up and died in the first place, so it's non-issue.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

If DPSing makes you so low on MP then you're doing something wrong. The only thing that can make a healer go OoM is raising people multiple times in a very short time.

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Well, you can pretty much go OOM if you (brain afk :D) AOE like mad.
But with one eye on your MP you can still do decent damage and heal enough.

If you stop to DPS for some manaregen or pop a manaregen CD, i doubt that anyone will yell at you.

But... isn't this Topic going out of hand in a way?
The threadstarter said it's all said and done? :)

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

NO.

/10char

OK, sorry, haha.
Anyhow, I'll provide an argument to the oher side. No content in this game has healer DPS REQUIRED, and if you DPS, you may lack MP to pull some massive heals/raises if hings go south.

IF your group is skilled, and IF you're pretty certain that only minimal (or no) non-avoidable damage will come out, then go ahead. Else, being conservative about your MP is the better choice.

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you are right, you have to save Mp , but thats what LD is for, if its on CD, my stopping point on dps is when my Mp reaches 15% of its max amount, so if mp on 15% or lower, and LD in CD for more than 10 seconds, i stop dpsing, else i just dps, theres really no reason to sit on max MP the entire fight, if you need to ress multiple times follow the basic rule: if a dps dies twice in arow for not avoiding dmg or due ignoring mechanics, just leave him on the floor, you are doing more dps than him anyway.

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Originally Posted by Nowakii

you are right, you have to save Mp , but thats what LD is for, if its on CD, my stopping point on dps is when my Mp reaches 15% of its max amount, so if mp on 15% or lower, and LD in CD for more than 10 seconds, i stop dpsing, else i just dps, theres really no reason to sit on max MP the entire fight, if you need to ress multiple times follow the basic rule: if a dps dies twice in arow for not avoiding dmg or due ignoring mechanics, just leave him on the floor, you are doing more dps than him anyway.

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It's all a matter of how you see your responsibility to the party as a healer.

You can either see yourself as a guardian angel of sorts whose main contribution to the party is to ENLARGE THE MARGIN OF ERROR so you can get a clear with less tries, or as a Half DPS who don't give a single proverbial F to people who fail mechanics and only deems acceptable for everyone to perform flawlessly, only feeling that you need to heal unavoidable damage.

Each of those different healers will have a different answer to "should I be DPSing". And each of those different healers are better suited for different groups. If they match, then it's wonderful. If it doesn't, you AND your group are in for an awful time.