1.20a Archer Damage Test [Att vs Dex vs Pie vs Str]

Please read #21 first before you continue to read this one...

Hi all,

It has bought my attention that I need to build my archer suit and super unbalanced matiera pricing. SE alredy said Str also contribute to attack. However, Tier IV STR materia cost 30k when I build my gears... So, I decided to do the test.

in summory:
http://t.imgbox.com/aah91Ilk.jpg


Google doc is here

For damage, Str ~Dex ~ Pie in this test.

So, if you can't afford to build double meld attack gloves, I think str is also a good all-around DoW gloves while the cost is 1/3-1/5. It is really interesting the market become this way which people follow each other blindly and do something they don't seem to understand. But, on well that's how real life is...

So, dex still have acc bonus. Pie has that possible shadowbind benefit.
For att, maybe it has the same relationship as previous attack magic potency (AMP) vs int relationship, att raise the base damage, str increase more when there is combo damage bonus on other class.

So, if you can't afford att, pie, dex materia, str is also a good choice for your damage. ^^

seems to me SE pretty much crapped on the bonus traits of archer making the hulk and muscle (attack/str) the main modifiers? i hope i am wrong tho :x

I cant even comprehend your google doc its so poorly organized.

I won't even try.

Ill just assume you didn't have a high enough quantity of shots and the number of variables you had were too many to get a real sample.

Hell its bound to show up somewhere in this thread.



On a serious note;
Thanks for the work at trying to figure out the modifiers XD

STR is not a good choice. Please get better data before all the people who don't know better stack STR and suck against mobs higher level than them.

You can't sample on things that you cap out on in terms of attributes. If you notice your STR and DEX stack results showing similar results on Lv40-42 mobs, well, that's because your STR/DEX is against or over their VIT.

STR doesn't really add Attack. It is more of a supporting role for your attack. Higher STR against mobs with high VIT pushes your attack through to score higher and more consistent rates of dmg per hit.

In other words, your basic MMO attribute modifier. STR is lows and Attack is Highs.

In Archer's case, DEX acts as the STR modifier.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

STR is not a good choice. Please get better data before all the people who don't know better stack STR and suck against mobs higher level than them.

You can't sample on things that you cap out on in terms of attributes. If you notice your STR and DEX stack results showing similar results on Lv40-42 mobs, well, that's because your STR/DEX is against or over their VIT.

STR doesn't really add Attack. It is more of a supporting role for your attack. Higher STR against mobs with high VIT pushes your attack through to score higher and more consistent rates of dmg per hit.

In other words, your basic MMO attribute modifier. STR is lows and Attack is Highs.

In Archer's case, DEX acts as the STR modifier.

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^

this is my concern, as well. while i appreciate the effort and applaud anyone for trying to work this out (i've been too busy/lazy to contribute much in this realm, myself)- i just don't know that we can trust any results unless they're thoroughly vetted on like-level mobs. ie: hundreds/thousands of attacks on mobs of a consistent level (preferably 50 or higher)

Did you really perform 30 shots against a range of different-level mobs (when we know that dLVL is the biggest contributor to damage results) and then expect to be able to analyze those results with confidence?

Your data is worthless.

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Originally Posted by carraway

Did you really perform 30 shots against a range of different-level mobs (when we know that dLVL is the biggest contributor to damage results) and then expect to be able to analyze those results with confidence?

Your data is worthless.

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Did you?

The reason I did this test is I want to figure out which gloves I should use between my att and dex gloves. Since I made a pair of str gloves, I tested it all together.
There are something about str to archers. However, seems no one on the forum seems to know str is a damage factor of the archer's range damage. and look at my post, the words I used there is very careful that I said "For damage, Str ~Dex ~ Pie in this test." I'm not that type of cocky person like to use a single evidence and agree or deny everything.

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Originally Posted by Deli

Did you?

The reason I did this test is I want to figure out which gloves I should use between my att and dex gloves. Since I made a pair of str gloves, I tested it all together.
There are something about str to archers. However, seems no one on the forum seems to know str is a damage factor of the archer's range damage. and look at my post, the words I used there is very careful that I said "For damage, Str ~Dex ~ Pie in this test." I'm not that type of cocky person like to use a single evidence and agree or deny everything.

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I actually have done testing that is of a far more significant order than 30 shots against mid-level targets without a control, without any kind of uniformity or rigorous methodology. However, it's still not significant enough to show off a spreadsheet that declares STR is analogous to DEX and PIE (spoilers: it isn't).

Do a controlled test against L50 or higher targets, using the exact same level on your target, with hundreds of shots, if you want to establish something. What you're providing is potentially more detrimental than beneficial to others' understanding of how stats work.

+1 to you XD

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Originally Posted by carraway

I actually have done testing that is of a far more significant order than 30 shots against mid-level targets without a control, without any kind of uniformity or rigorous methodology. However, it's still not significant enough to show off a spreadsheet that declares STR is analogous to DEX and PIE (spoilers: it isn't).

Do a controlled test against L50 or higher targets, using the exact same level on your target, with hundreds of shots, if you want to establish something. What you're providing is potentially more detrimental than beneficial to others' understanding of how stats work.

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aww I was expecting some data, link or something
/sad

This isn't even in the right forum. Go read this thread though - http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t....18-and-Beyond

The test itself is poor but I lol at those that say STR is worthless for ARC

Uh, too bad STR is better than DEX and PIE. Just fyi, those stats only increase damage on light shot. So GG for bashing him when you don't even read patch notes.

DEX>PIE>STR unless you fight lvl 40's all day this test is useless...

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Originally Posted by ApplePie

Uh, too bad STR is better than DEX and PIE. Just fyi, those stats only increase damage on light shot. So GG for bashing him when you don't even read patch notes.

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Pretty sure your just tossing fuel on the fire but just to be safe the modifiers listed affect all forms of physical attack dmg including ws's!

ATK>PIE>DEX>STR imo based on testing against the Moogle encounter (dex has no additional modifiers useful for ARC at least in parties, whereas pie increases additional effects chance to land).

You can find details of my tests in the archer forum, where this thread should have been placed (or at least the OP should have read first).

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Originally Posted by Murugan

ATK>PIE>DEX>STR imo based on testing against the Moogle encounter (dex has no additional modifiers useful for ARC at least in parties, whereas pie increases additional effects chance to land).

You can find details of my tests in the archer forum, where this thread should have been placed (or at least the OP should have read first).

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Uh......... Attack power does nothing, lol. I've put on full attack power gear and my auto-attack goes up by 10 at the most, and my ws damage hardly increases. STR shifts the curve; attack just moves along the curve. I do agree with PIE's usefulness with binding.

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Originally Posted by tachikoma

Pretty sure your just tossing fuel on the fire but just to be safe the modifiers listed affect all forms of physical attack dmg including ws's!

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Nope, it just is for the arms part. AKA Auto-attack. SE's translations are horribly troll.

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Originally Posted by ApplePie

Uh......... Attack power does nothing, lol. I've put on full attack power gear and my auto-attack goes up by 10 at the most, and my ws damage hardly increases. STR shifts the curve; attack just moves along the curve. I do agree with PIE's usefulness with binding.


Nope, it just is for the arms part. AKA Auto-attack. SE's translations are horribly troll.

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Not according to my tests.

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The above damage bonus also applies to “Shot” attacks by archers.

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That line is directly under the table that you are referring to Apple Pie. My understanding of this is that DEX and PIE also affect any arrow shot taken by ARC's, which also include Weapon Skills.

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Originally Posted by ApplePie

Uh......... Attack power does nothing, lol. I've put on full attack power gear and my auto-attack goes up by 10 at the most, and my ws damage hardly increases. STR shifts the curve; attack just moves along the curve. I do agree with PIE's usefulness with binding.


Nope, it just is for the arms part. AKA Auto-attack. SE's translations are horribly troll.

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I disagree that attack does nothing. (or less then nothing)

I have seen a significant increase in damage with +60 atk on moogles.

Right now I would rather stack atk over dex/str on my gloves. On mobs like the pally it doesn't really matter what you stack since archer damage is so poor anyway and the THM can just blow em up, but on Pom and Furry I am hitting 1k barrage and quick nooks, sometimes 1500+ with crits.

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Originally Posted by Meatdawg

I disagree that attack does nothing. (or less then nothing)

I have seen a significant increase in damage with +60 atk on moogles.

Right now I would rather stack atk over dex/str on my gloves. On mobs like the pally it doesn't really matter what you stack since archer damage is so poor anyway and the THM can just blow em up, but on Pom and Furry I am hitting 1k barrage and quick nooks, sometimes 1500+ with crits.

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Attack significantly increases archer damage versus Whiskerwall.

Phew... Hi all,

I spent some time to did a series test... which I should done something earlier so I won't waste such amount of the time. (I should do my 'naked' damage first :( )
I think this whole test says: Archer's damage need to be effective at certain distance.

By the way, now I see this test is completely garbage so read further if you want to know why. Otherwise stop here.

Here is why:
http://t.imgbox.com/aavjBKDf.jpg

In this test, the objects are L50 Black Wolves.
What I did is:
1. getting basic gear on me which + nothing to dex, str, pie (except Felt Bracers).
2. Charge Barrage >light shot wolves (usually max distance)
3. getting 1000 tp and pop my heavy shot
4. after battle, readying my chat log and key into my excel, filter out light shot critical amount.

Here is the new google doc

Discussion:

1. If you read above damage average, I have 2 separated parts. One is 85 trials average, one is first 60 trials average (yellow highlight). From there you can see in this method, even I did another 50 or more, the average should be around that number. So quantity of the trials shouldn't be that matter (if the test method is valid, I expect to see more difference. So it shouldn't be matter for comparison purpose.)

2. I really can't explain why there is no difference on heavy shot averages between dex+44 and pie+2 ('naked' situation for my test. I rather have slightly bigger pie than -4 from taking off my Felt Bracers. I don't have time to prepare another no-melded one ^^:) So, I suspect it's due to I didn't keep 8 yalms between wolf and me. Otherwise, I really can't explain it. If this is true, it makes my previous test garbage too because the eye is flowing around randomly and I didn't take my 'naked' damage down. This will force me to find a better target if I want to do the test solo.

3. position of the enemies. The wolves is moving randomly, so even my barraged light shot can't hit the wolves from same angle same distance every time. If the distance influence heavy shot is valid, that make my light shot result questionable too.

4. Which number to exclude, which to include. If you reading my data carefully, there are some critical damage I excluded which is ie 280. However, there are some normal damage is 270 and it didn't say it's critical damage. So, if I included critical values to my data set, then I really need to do a 1000+ trials each situation, if not, why do I included 270? It's a good question to discuss... ^^:

5. Misses. With dex I certainly can see I have more reminding hp in the end of my test for each wolf. These are causes by the misses. However, how do you calculate misses into equation? using dps? then do you need to put the button-smashing rate into the equations? (Also, don't know why many of you think I'm pro str. I'm going to use my att gloves...)


/sigh why am I get involves=d to this...
/waiting for the "far more significant" data...

The one thing I think people need to keep in mind is that if they just stack attack without the corresponding attribute DMG modifier they are not going to see the results they want to see.

This is being tested like a scale. You test with large amounts of STR or DEX, but you miss out on the attack power, you equip large amounts of attack power, but you miss out on the STR and DEX to push the attack power through which is why you start to see similar results.

The ideal set up would be a mix of both on a pair of gloves. I have a +17 DEX +30 attack glove that I usually use for King Moggle Mog and really anything else, but high amounts of DEX for Ifrit being that he has such a high VIT check.

You can't just put DEX or STR into everything expecting to see significant results being that they SUPPORT your attack power. I mean, you can, but honestly that is only really the case for high VIT mobs. Your STR/DEX mods are going to exceed or push against the Lv45-50 mobs so you will absolutely see a significant increase there in those kinds of situations involving lots of attack power.

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Originally Posted by ApplePie

Uh, too bad STR is better than DEX and PIE. Just fyi, those stats only increase damage on light shot. So GG for bashing him when you don't even read patch notes.

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Actually you're the one who didn't read the patch notes it seems.

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Damage dealt by archer arms

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Damage dealt by archer, lancer, thaumaturge, and conjurer arms

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The above damage bonus also applies to “Shot” attacks by archers.

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Archer arms, not just light shot. It also applies to shot attacks, not exclusively.

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≪Parameters and Their Effects≫

Strength

* Attack Power
* Damage dealt by puglist, gladiator, marauder, and lancer arms

Vitality

* Damage taken
* Enhancement Magic Potency
* Maximum HP
* Damage dealt by marauder arms

Dexterity

* Accuracy
* Block Rate
* Parry
* Damage dealt by archer arms

Intelligence

* Attack Magic Potency
* Damage dealt by pugilist arms

Mind

* Healing Magic Potency
* Magic Accuracy
* Damage dealt by gladiator, thaumaturge, and conjurer arms

Piety

* Magic Evasion
* Enfeebling Magic Potency
* Maximum MP
* Damage dealt by archer, lancer, thaumaturge, and conjurer arms

≪Auto-attack Damage Bonus≫

Class---------Bonus 1-----------Bonus 2
Pugilist-------Intelligence-------Strength
Gladiator-----Mind------------- Strength
Marauder----Vitality------------Strength
Archer--------Dexterity-------Piety
Lancer--------Piety--------------Strength
Conjurer-----Mind----------------Piety
Thauma------Mind----------------Piety


* The above damage bonus also applies to “Shot” attacks by archers.

Planning is underway to give players the option to undo point allotment in a future patch.

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Need More be Said? Taken straight from the Horse's Mouth.

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Need More be Said? Taken straight from the Horse's Mouth.

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That's why I'm testing all of these... cus that str thing...
I need to find a nice lv of hippocerf... lv50-52
anyone knows?

Otherwise I'm going to mess with Lv47-49 Bandit archer and Bandit mage :(

and why do I have to test on Lv50+ :( you supposed to see the relationship on any level range :(


ps.-edit I went back and test with bare felt bracers... always did some embarrassing heavy shot damage in the end. 173, 175, 180... before it die. such as one more light shot then it die. This time data looks more reasonable, I need to figure out why the hat with +int materia didn't work.



summarized picture is here and google doc is here

I don't know it's lucky or not you can read this. I did more test about archer shot damage:
Object: L45 Serpent Reaver Eye (pretty much bandit archer)

Procedure:
1. light shot pull to certain distance that if I move a little she moved a little too. (ensure distance)
2. Once distance is sure, she didn't move after 1-2 shot, I do my first recorded light shot.
3. Invigorate
4. shot Heavy Shot when it's available. (ensure heavy shot doesn't changed by tp)
5. Leaden Arrow > Wide Volley
6. Light shot (tp should be just over 1000) > heavy shot > Leaden Arrow. Archer should die here.

If on #6 archer already dead, I abandon the light shot and heavy shot result. it will cause less data for L.A.

I really don't know what's right or wrong. However, my data still shows str~dex~att that doing nothing. There are so many "experts" out there too. So, I'll leave the stage to them. Please try not to reply to this thread anymore. Just let it sink to bottom.
Earth is orbit around sun or not, it's not matter to me anymore.