Hi guys, I main SAM at the moment. I've been told that it's a good thing to have an ALT at your disposal for static groups in case they need you to swap.
Any suggestions on this? Maybe it's wise to also have a ranged job, or is it better to keep it at a second melee job?
ALT DPS role for raiding?
Printable View
-
08-14-2017, 12:19 AMRaiden_KiALT DPS role for raiding?
-
08-14-2017, 12:23 AMNabian
Typically you want something completely different. I would suggest tank or healing personally, but ranged dps wouldn't be bad either.
-
08-14-2017, 01:04 AMFinkledoodoo
If you're doing it for other people, just circle jerk the current meta... Looks like you can start rdm, but bard and ninja seem to be next in line. Monk is just a lesser Sam, Mch is just a lesser bard, Smn (LOL WUT M8) and Blm is just a forth dps that can just be replaced by another Sam...
Otherwise, just play what you want. If you don't want to be anything else don't... -
08-14-2017, 01:22 AMSakyun
You already raid with a melee job, going as another melee would be more of the same (unless its NIN if your group requires that melee support) if you want to stay as DPS i recommend a ranged/magic DPS.
-
08-14-2017, 03:06 AMHoLoFoNoI don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.... RDM is no longer meta since prog is over, NIN is literally the core of any meta group since forever and has been the best DPS class since its inception. BRD is also at a similar level to NIN. MNK is more favourable than SAM since the DPS output is similar but brotherhood actually helps people. MCH is actually good now, and is currently meta. SMNs main issues meta-wise comes from poor synergy with the current meta classes (that is to say, physical classes and if the meta was magic heavy, it would certainly be better).Quote:
Originally Posted by Finkledoodoo
-
08-14-2017, 04:31 AMFinkledoodooUm, you do understand where your argument falls apart right? You know, the part where you say that Rdm is no longer meta, but Mnk is favorable because of its buff? You are using a utility vs dps arguement as a non-sequitur to prove your point, which I will use against you in just a little...Quote:
Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo
As for Rdm: You are also discounting Rdm in 2 ways: 1. you can tell from his post that he isn't exactly pro, so chances are that his raid group will be in some type of progression or at least they aren't farming today and 2. you are discounting any upcoming progression, as the devs may not change progression tiers with their balancing attempts.
Onto your next argument, I definitely held Brd and Nin up to your impression of them; only discounting them to the rdm because op was already a melee... (implied caster swtich)
As for Mnk, if buff utility is important, then Rdm buff utility is important and he should learn Rdm. If Rdm buff utility is not important, then Mnk buff utility is not important and he doesn't have to learn Mnk because he already knows Sam. Mnk = irrelevant...
Finally, Mch... (LOL WUT M8)... But seriously, even if Mch is good, Brd is better, Nin is better and (if it can't out dps a Rdm) Rdm is better... And honestly, human nature is to not change. So if Mch is only close to Brd, few people will want to experiment...
Either way, I'm a big armored core fan and I love your name WG!!! -
08-14-2017, 05:27 AMElazulHP
I'm SAM and BRD. I found that I can almost always find a spot for one or the other, but I'm also leveling up an AST atm in case Healer is needed.
-
08-14-2017, 05:53 AMAlistaire
Another thing to consider is who they'd want you to swap for? What job is the person most likely to miss time?
-
08-14-2017, 06:09 AMHoLoFoNoThe current DPS meta is DRG (yeah you forgot about this one didn't you?) BRD NIN and MCH/MNK. You called MNK a lesser SAM, implying that it is somehow less of a favourable class to choose over SAM when this is definitely not the case. Their DPS is similar but MNK also brings brotherhood which is more than enough to close the gap. I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to say here....Quote:
Originally Posted by Finkledoodoo
RDM's main niche was the power of verraise in progression, which made it easier to continue when things went wrong. Outside of that its damage and embolden its 'eh, its alright'. Regardless of OP is pro or not, you used 'meta' which in this game strictly refers to the best comp possible even if there are competitive roles they aren't 'meta' unless they are apart of the 4 kings (4 meta dps). The meta focuses on speedkills, which is obviously not applicable here therefore you used the word in the wrong context.
BRD isn't a Melee nor did OP specify that he needed a completely different role. Especially as a SAM, OP could go to one of the other melees that don't suck ass to play with (LOL MY PERSONAL DPS LOOK HOW HIGH MY MIDARE CRITS FOR XDDDDDDD) as this isn't really a rare situation. Maybe he could be asked to go to MNK for mantra or to go to NIN for agro management. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't have a class of another role in mind but in the parameters laid out in the OP, it's more of a what-if scenario. And if it is within a raid group, very rarely would they want you to change outside of your role (dps in this case).
I understand the point you are trying to make, but this is a non sequitur in itself as RDM and MNK don't typically share a raid spot. Also MNK is MUCH closer to SAM in DPS than RDM and as of right now contributes quite a lot more RDPS than RDM. Again, it seems like you are considering MNK and SAM to be the same class. They may share a raid spot but they aren't exactly the same thing with a different main weapon. If I were a raid leader, personally I would prefer a MNK to a SAM simply for the fact that a MNK can provide something while also producing similar dps to SAM.
The reason why you're incorrect on this point is because your line of thinking is that BRD and MCH are 1 spot, which they aren't. It isn't completely dumb to assume that, actually its the opposite. However as the last tier of Alex proved, this thinking is flawed and ultimately having them both is quite a lot better. NIN is NIN, it is practically the core of any raid group and is nothing but a positive class to have, essentially its irreplaceable (meta wise). Because of the shitty design of the development team, 3 DPS have a co dependant relationship together: DRG, BRD and MCH. DRGs value is alright, but it gets pushed up by BRD and MCH which is what ultimately makes it meta. However, you have to be careful not to double count; The DPS the DRG adds to BRD cannot be counted at the same time as the DPS BRD gains from DRG. I.E if DRG provides 4500 rDPS and BRD provides 4800 rDPS, if DRG buffs BRDs rDPS by 5%, it wouldn't then be 4740 and 5040, one of the numbers would remain the same while one increases.
But I digress, BRD is good, has the highest rDPS contribution and DRG helps BRD, so we have 3 DPS who are meta. With the Buffs to MCH, it slightly edges out the rDPS of MNK which was next in line, which causes it to be the 4th slot even if it technically is the weakest link. It also synergizes with DRG. Outside of shit going wrong, RDM genuinely isn't anything special, the only thing being in its favour is the way it synergizes with the physical dps that outnumber casters 2:1 and will more often than not be 3/4 DPS.
TL;DR
RDMs main power came from verraise and to a lesser extend vercure, these aren't super useful when you don't fuck up. Otherwise, RDM is 'alright'
OP doesn't have to change roles or even spot with an ALT, it could just be a class with the same raid spot that fills a different niche (agro management from NIN etc)
MNK and RDM are quite a bit apart when it comes to rDPS, and don't typically share a spot. MNK and SAM have similar rDPS, but who would you rather play with?
MCH doesn't have to share a spot with BRD, it can coexist and actually is a part of the optimal comp. -
08-14-2017, 06:31 AMHoLoFoNoBrotherhood also only affects physical. It is slightly worse than embolden (embolden is ~6% every 120 seconds for 20 seconds, so 6% with a 16.7% uptime while brotherhood is 5% that doesn't effect the MNK but is countered by chakra generation every 90 seconds for 15 seconds so also a 16.7% uptime.) The difference is about .15% rDPS while MNK itself is about 7% stronger than RDM at the highest percentiles. Quite a large disparity in rDPS tbhQuote:
Originally Posted by reyre
-
08-14-2017, 07:24 AMFinkledoodooWas gonna tl;dr roflcopter you, but you seem cool...Quote:
Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo
Didn't forget about Drg, I'm sure op knows how to wait to be rezzed...
For Sam V Mnk, I'm on team Sam until I see the speed runs prove otherwise.
For Rdm, my comparison is between Rdm and Blm because they are the same slot. Anything I said about Mnk and Rdm was used in the context of comparing them to their high dps non-utility counterpart.
Meta was used like popularity. That may be my mistake. But from years of competitive play, I've found that meta was not always most effective, it was always most used. But I'll let it go. Replace my previous use of the word meta with popularity...
Brd and Mch seem close enough to me... I didn't get to do Alexander, I started in April...
You gotta pick man, you're saying that like, everything is meta other then blm and smn lol... There's only 4 spots in a raid team. name your big four already... I'm saying Rdm, Sam, Brd and Nin are the popular goto team... Maybe if I follow, you think Nin Mnk Brd Mch? I'm highly skeptical, like, really skeptical... Personally, I'm an independent kind of player, I'd rather run hard hitters with no utility and just try to play perfect...
I'm outta time though. Nice discussion guys. -
08-14-2017, 09:03 AMaleph_nullThe current fastest kills for 4 out of 5 fights bring drg, only o2s fastest kill doesn't bring a drg (they have sam/mnk/nin/mch instead). When people say meta composition in this game it generally refers to the optimal speedkill composition, but currently most people aren't geared in BiS yet so it's still not clear yet. After a few more weeks more and more groups will attempt to speedkill and we'll see what the optimal composition is. For now it looks like drg/nin/brd have their guaranteed spots while the last spot is up for either mnk or mch, but this may change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finkledoodoo
-
08-14-2017, 09:05 AMAomine1992
I would have said healer or tank but then I re read the title lol but I would go with either RDM or BRD get the opposite Incase they need to shift ppl around and it's always good to be flexible currently I love my DRG but if need be I also tanked all the way up to V3s
I would avoid BLM unless you know fights 100% to know when you need to exactly move, dps wise they are better then RDM but moving is the key factor that makes them fall below RDM...SMN is just not a viable choice after V2s...MCH is good but BRD is still better :/...MNK is okay but it's pretty much the same thing as SAM...DRG is good but also is a melee and not the opposit of what you are already...And then NIN which is great but many many people already play nin lol -
08-14-2017, 09:39 AMAlistaireHuh? Did they release the post-savage fight? Or you're counting o4s in 2 parts?Quote:
Originally Posted by aleph_null
-
08-14-2017, 10:00 AMHoLoFoNoI already said my meta... DRG/NIN/BRD/MCHQuote:
Originally Posted by Finkledoodoo
But addressing your points I also said MNK isn't as bad as you thought and RDM isn't as good as you thought.
In this game, the fatal flaw of the DPS design is offensive utility. That is to say, trying to make classes have synergy is the main reason balance with this game is kinda messed up. While everything at least works, the best classes are going to be the classes that help each other the most. Before you were playing, back in late 3.0 there was a meme floating about: Delete MNK. MNK was the old SAM; the class that brought no offensive utility to the party but did the highest DPS. However its DPS wasn't enough to bring it over classes that contributed to the party (remember: tanks and healers also do DPS) and boosted the damage of everyone else. Also playing with a MNK was ass, you literally got no damage benefit from them being there while they got some from you.
So objectively and subjectively they didn't fit into a party. This situation is starting to be replicated with SAM. While the damage difference does make it more viable than MNK was, due to the design of the game it just doesn't get along with others, and you could have someone else that does slightly less dps but buffs the damage of the 7 other party members.
Speed runs HAVE proved otherwise. SAM is in less top kills than MNK, but as others have said gear isn't there yet so essentially at this point the fastest kills belong to the best geared players/players with the most time. Give it 2 more months and then the results will be set (but by that point a major rebalance will be happening).
The difference between MNK & SAM and RDM & BLM is not as similar as you would think. For one, SAM, BLM and MNK comprise what is essentially the 'big 3' which are the strongest 3 DPS damage wise and the difference between them and 4th place is quite a jump (actually since the SMN buffs, SMN has halved the gap but due to the low amount of players, this number is inflated somewhat by the loyalists who perfect the job). SAM to MNK is about 200 at the 99th percentile (according to fflogs) while BLM to RDM is about 400. This is a much bigger difference. For reference, MNK to RDM is about 300.
Honestly, when it comes to optimal comp, there are no slots. You just take the 4 strongest dps rDPS wise. But under normal circumstances you could say BRD can compete with MCH (this was much more of an equal comparison during 3.x, but they dropped the ball with MCH somewhat this time).
As a DRG, I really don't like playing with SAMs. I find it just unfair that they can live inside their own little bubble while people give them stuff but the don't give anything in return. If we are speaking objectively though, they do add dps to be useful for faster kills, but it may not be enough (multipliers get crazy when they stack). -
08-14-2017, 10:15 AMFinkledoodooKQuote:
Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo
Where can I look this stuff up? Clearly there is a hole in my research abilities... -
08-14-2017, 10:17 AMTracewood
I was a MNK main, but I'm probably going to go BRD full time.
Not sure what happened but the dev team really turned the job around since Heavensward. It's been so long since I had that kind of fun on that class. MNK might be the backup job but I'm going to be honest, most people prefer to go MNK/SAM/DRG over other classes. -
08-14-2017, 10:24 AMHoLoFoNo
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...gregate=amount
You can check any percentile you want.
Delete MNK is a meme, probably find that shit around reddit or something idk
https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/17
Here you can check the fastest kill of each of the current savage fights. You can see the comp by clicking on the team name.
When it comes to my information on the game design, this is from playing the game for 4 years. Synergy has always been a design issue where BRD is directly tethered to DRG so both classes have to be balanced not to be too good on their own or they would be exceptional with the other. When they introduced MCH instead of fixing it they made it worse, so now there are 3 classes which have to be balanced together. DRG is the only DPS that provides piercing resistance down while 3.5 dps use it (RDM uses it for their physical strikes). Even after nerfing it from 10% to 5% its still cancer. This is more like dependency and is just 1 example, point being that there is too much emphasis on classes helping others and so they are balancing classes personal output on that rather than playstyle and convenience/ease of use. -
08-14-2017, 11:06 AMAlistaire
I'm still surprised they didn't just get rid of the slashing/piercing/blunt debuffs in 4.0 as part of their plan to simplify the game. As you've said, they cause nothing but trouble for BRD/MCH/DRG balancing, and they don't bring anything all that interesting to the game anyway.
-
08-14-2017, 08:44 PMaleph_nullYeah I count exdeath and neo exdeath separately, since they're like the faust fights in 3.x. I wouldn't be surprised if exdeath speedkill and neo exdeath speedkill use different composition just like faust z vs refurbisher (2 war instead of war + drk for faust, due to the short duration).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistaire