Let's talk about ping, oGCD abilities, and super tight rotations...

With the new MCH changes, the class was pushed in what some (myself included) feel is a better direction to move in. It placed the focus more on getting as much mileage as possible out of overheating, which is a good direction for a burst phase-heavy ranged DPS.

The problem, however, for MCH and any other class that has a lot of oGCD abilities, is that oGCD abilities get a bit dodgy when used in rapid succession, but "rapid succession" is exactly HOW we need to use said abilities in order to get the most out of these classes (such as NIN with mudras).

Here's a slow motion clip of two MCH oGCD abilities failing to activate when pressed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBuShjLJChc

Rapid Fire is pressed but fails to execute at 15 sec, Gauss Round at 30 sec.

The key problem here is that these abilities appeared to be functional and ready to use before being pressed. In the video, both abilities have their corresponding hotbar buttons light up when they're pressed, but they simply do not activate.

Unlike with regular GCD abilities that have spinners over them and will elicit both an error message AND sound effect informing you that the abilities didn't activate, there is no such feedback given to the player when an oGCD they pressed failed to activate.

I'm guessing this problem could very well be ping-related, not that my ping is high, but I'm on the east coast so I'm a bit further away from the servers than many players.

Either way, this is a serious hindrance to being the best player I can be. The end result is that I need to mash every oGCD ability 4-5 times to ensure it activates, which means I'm not pressing my regular GCD abilities the moment they're off CD. It's also hell for trying to get the most out of Wildfire, in which I need every oGCD ability to happen when pressed to maximize my damage.

My request to the devs is this...

If for whatever reason an oGCD ability isn't going to activate when pressed, we need a visual indicator to inform us of this (aka an oGCD spinner that informs us when it's clear to press the next oGCD). It doesn't matter whether this is due to latency, "animation lock", or whatever, players NEED to know when pressing a button isn't going to activate the corresponding ability.

Or alternatively, give us a more generous buffer for stringing several oGCD abilities together in a row, maybe placing the emphasis client side so we don't have to press each oGCD multiple times before it activates.

In the end, the whole reason we call these "off global cooldown abilities" is because of we can supposedly activate them free of any timing restrictions. If timing restrictions do indeed exist, we either need some means of removing these restrictions or an indicator of WHEN we're restricted from activating them.

It'd also be nice to hear from other players regarding their location and whether or not they suffer from these issues. I'm ASSUMING this is ping-related, but there could be players living a few miles from the server colo who have these issues so more data is always useful.

I didn't have these problems until the server move.
Now I have to wait a tick (or three) once things light up before I can actually use them. Took a while to get used to and I still mess it up from time to time. I just assumed this was due to the server being moved from the right coast to the left.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zarabeth

I didn't have these problems until the server move.
Now I have to wait a tick (or three) once things light up before I can actually use them. Took a while to get used to and I still mess it up from time to time. I just assumed this was due to the server being moved from the right coast to the left.

---

I mean, it very well COULD be, but the issue created by it is that, as of now, our hotbars are displaying information that is sometimes entirely inaccurate: a button will appear pressable and ready for activation when it actually isn't.

Whether that's a ping issue or a buffering issue is completely irrelevant, the hotbar just shouldn't be "lying" about which buttons we can and cannot press at that moment.

It's good to know that others are having similar issues and WHEN they're having these issues because it'll give the devs more to go on, so thanks and keep it coming, folks. :)

There is a .7 second delay on using any oGCD after using a GCD. That has existed since the game has been in beta. That's why you see the delay. It has nothing to do with ping, and everything to do with Square putting up a global blocker on all oGCDs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AkashiXI

There is a .7 second delay on using any oGCD after using a GCD. That has existed since the game has been in beta. That's why you see the delay. It has nothing to do with ping, and everything to do with Square putting up a global blocker on all oGCDs.

---

Then we really, REALLY need a visual indicator of some kind to let us know when it's in effect, plus all of the corresponding error messages and sounds that come with trying to use an ability that we cannot at that moment.

Even if it's just a super fast spinner over oGCD abilities.

At 100 ms ping I can barely press 2 oGCD within one GCD and too often doing that delays the next spell. It's not caused by my net or player ability because I can do the same without issues in WoW and that game has a 1.5 second GCD or less. Gameplay in this game feels like wading through mud compared to other games.

The delay would not bother me as much if it was the same for everyone, but the way it is the people who get very little ping have an advantage over other players since they are able to double-weave. What's the point of slow-paced combat if excellent connection and fast button spamming are still rewarded? If single-weaving is intended then enforce it by adding a shared 2 second recast to oGCD abilities. Alternatively get rid of the invisible delay so everyone can double or tripple-weave.

I am very saddened MCH needs good ping to play well....it's 3.x all over again. I can't get the 6 GCD overheat ; ;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinha

The delay would not bother me as much if it was the same for everyone, but the way it is the people who get very little ping have an advantage over other players since they are able to double-weave. What's the point of slow-paced combat if you excellent connection and fast button spamming are still rewarded? If single-weaving is intended then enforce it by adding a shared 2 second recast to oGCD abilities. Alternatively get rid of the invisible delay so everyone can double or tripple-weave.

---

Soooo much this.

I love the MCH playstyle, but yeah, actually fitting all of the oGCDs I need in there feels impossible due to them just not activating over half the time when I need to go FAST. :(

There is another problem that goes with this. If you use something at the last second (I do not know if MCH has anything like this) but with stuff like pitch perfect or deathflare, if you use them at the very last second, the button will show being pressed, start the animation, then cancel, and the CD resets itself. I think it is a combination of bad coding and the extra ping we got with the server move. I think the game was always able do this but with the move, more people notice it.

It is very awkward seeing you use something then cancels in the middle of the animation.

With my high ping,I can't double wave anything.
So I need to come up with my exclusive modified rotation for my mnk,sam,goon that fit my ping.
As far as i've noticed all Dex-user jobs really need very low ping to perform efficiency though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

It is very awkward seeing you use something then cancels in the middle of the animation.

---

I'm starting to think FFXIV needs a better means of handling client/server interaction in general, since I've seen odd things like this as well...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kahnom

With my high ping,I can't double wave anything.
So I need to come up with my exclusive modified rotation for my mnk,sam,goon that fit my ping.
As far as i've noticed all Dex-user jobs really need very low ping to perform efficiency though.

---

Yeah, this is an issue that effects far more than just MCH. Any class with multiple oGCDs they'll need to use in rapid succession is going to be effected (and possibly crippled) by this.

Yup this is ping related. Basically denied to be of influence though, sometimes it makes you wonder how they actually test stuff.

After the move many people magically couldn't double wave anymore, it is still considered as a valid reason to question the whole move and not going for an expansion. But yeah time moves on and people just accept things, it's the easy way after all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eschaton

Yup this is ping related. Basically denied to be of influence though, sometimes it makes you wonder how they actually test stuff.

---

Have they officially denied influence in an interview or anything of the sort?

Sorry to bump this, but I REALLY want to know if they've officially stated that they don't feel this is a latency issue. :\

You could try pingzapper or mudfish. I know people don't like throwing money at problems, but sometimes it really is the easiest solution. At least, it was for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coatl

You could try pingzapper or mudfish. I know people don't like throwing money at problems, but sometimes it really is the easiest solution. At least, it was for me.

---

So did you have the oGCD issues but they went away with using a ping enhancing program?

For Rapid Fire, it looks like you attempted to cast it the split second you used Split Shot, The damage from that skill hadn't even been applied yet.
For Gauss Round, You used Ricochet and then tried to use Gauss Round before you even started the Ricochet animation.

Thats not unique to MCH or anything to do with ping. Its entirely due to the way animations work. XIV doesn't let you animation cancel the way other MMOs do. Its why the old MCH and BRD cooldown macros forced you to hit the key once for each skill in the macro, since the animation of the first skill prevents the second one from firing at the exact same time.

Pretty sure they do it that way because your character would look like it was having some sort of fit if it tried to activate 4 skills all at once. Hell, BRD during 3.0 had that issue when using certain skills in sequence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylve

For Rapid Fire, it looks like you attempted to cast it the split second you used Split Shot, The damage from that skill hadn't even been applied yet.
For Gauss Round, You used Ricochet and then tried to use Gauss Round before you even started the Ricochet animation.

Thats not unique to MCH or anything to do with ping. Its entirely due to the way animations work. XIV doesn't let you animation cancel the way other MMOs do. Its why the old MCH and BRD cooldown macros forced you to hit the key once for each skill in the macro, since the animation of the first skill prevents the second one from firing at the exact same time.

Pretty sure they do it that way because your character would look like it was having some sort of fit if it tried to activate 4 skills all at once. Hell, BRD during 3.0 had that issue when using certain skills in sequence.

---

I sincerely want you to be right, but I'm hearing a lot of conflicting reports about this situation.

I'm FINE with the game's animation being the issue, so long as it's not ping-related, but if that's the case, we need an oGCD spinner to appear over abilities when we cannot press them, and give us an error message + sound when we try to press them at that time.

The game has all the feedback it needs for when players attempt to use a GCD ability when the GCD is still active (ie big red error message and error sound). We just need the same for oGCD abilities as well.

I wonder if they shouldn't just take away round-trip ping times from the timers. say it's 2.5 secs, if you have 50ms pings that would adjust to 2.4, if you had 250 pings it would adjust to 2.0. That would at least leave us with a level playing field - at the moment you have ppl with 15ms pings romping it in, people over 100+ getting in less skill opportunities (both GCD and oGCD) in the same time period. Ninjas TCJ, while a nice enough skill, needs perfect pings or it takes an age (and will flat-out fail if you try and pre-empt it)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RichardButte

We just need the same for oGCD abilities as well.

---

Technically speaking ... There is an indicator. Your character itself lol. Since animations are the reason the use of oGCDs can feel wonky, you can quite literally watch the current animation of your character to determine when you can use an oGCD without issue.

Ping is almost certainly not an issue with skills firing, XIV uses client side for the use of skills, the server legitimizes the action after the fact. This can be seen when disconnecting, You can completely execute any action on your bars, But they wont go on cooldown or trigger effects etc.

Try an experiment on the dummy.
Cast Split/Slug/Clean etc, But wait for the animation to play out and then use Gauss Round or Rapid Fire while the GCD is still active.

If your character is standing perfectly still and yet those skills wont fire on first press, then you have a case of input lag more than actual ping issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XiXiQ

I wonder if they shouldn't just take away round-trip ping times from the timers. say it's 2.5 secs, if you have 50ms pings that would adjust to 2.4, if you had 250 pings it would adjust to 2.0. That would at least leave us with a level playing field - at the moment you have ppl with 15ms pings romping it in, people over 100+ getting in less skill opportunities (both GCD and oGCD) in the same time period. Ninjas TCJ, while a nice enough skill, needs perfect pings or it takes an age (and will flat-out fail if you try and pre-empt it)

---

Yeah, I had no idea ping had this much effect on the game.

It's...literally making me not want to play it. It's hard to be enthusiastic about a game that punishes me for not living on the west coast...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylve

Technically speaking ... There is an indicator. Your character itself lol. Since animations are the reason the use of oGCDs can feel wonky, you can quite literally watch the current animation of your character to determine when you can use an oGCD without issue.

---

C'mon now, we're both lalafells: you know as well as I do that watching your animations amid the chaos of a fight isn't exactly a realistic expectation. :P

Aside from being unable to double weave effectively, at 200+ ping sometimes RDM's dualcast proc doesn't register fast enough and the next spell hardcasts instead.

Trying to lvl up MCH 60+ lately.
Well how should I put this ...
Its barely different from lvled to 60 back in HW.
The "Clunkiness" is the same.The overheat mechanics is not my style...
Brd has more smooth "flow" rotation even I can't double wave.
Its just seems wrong in many ways for this job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RichardButte

I sincerely want you to be right, but I'm hearing a lot of conflicting reports about this situation.

---

It's a combination of things. Animations are the reason you can't activate two (or three, or more) abilities at the same time. Imagine being able to hit literally every oGCD you have at once. That's what this game could be like without the dumb animation lock.
High ping means that your two abilities take longer to go off, preventing smooth double-weaving.

Animations are the core problem, high ping makes it bad.

With the server move my ping decreased from ~90 (~140 w/o WTFast) to ~30 (~70 w/o WTFast). For a while I could double-weave with zero clipping even at a 1.83s GCD on my Monk (skill speed shits-and-giggles build). Either weaponskills themselves had a shorter anilock, or each anilock was shorter than .7s.

Since the start of Stormblood, however, double-weaving has again become unreliable at as little as a 2.00 GCD since the swap from Heavensward to Stormblood, and my displayed Suiton Ninjutsu again started to produce the occasional Fuma instead. However minor, something changed with the expansion, separate from the server change, and not for the better.

On topic:
If I recall correctly, someone found a minimal delay to queue sequencing as well, beyond the typically alleged global .7s animation lock. While the animation lock itself will not prevent doubleweaving except at very high speeds, the queue being unreactive, wasting a portion of the previous animation's time to check and prepare a contingent skill, for a set period likely will.