how does it feel to be rejected in raid party?

yes am talking about you "Machinist"... :mad::mad::mad:

"MCH dps isnt great"
"We prefer BRD"
"sorry, cant tag you along because we already have a BRD"
"SPOT is taken by a BRD sorry"

should i rant some more? >.>

I mean....if the ranged slot is taken by a Bard then it's reasonable. I find an issue is that the MCH playerbase is extremely small right now, and an even smaller percentage of that can actually dish out savage acceptable damage. When the majority of MCHs people experience aren't up to the challenge they're going to be hesitant, then add in the fact that MCH is in an absolutely terrible state right now compared to Bard.....

All you can really do is keep trying, and maybe ask them to give you an opportunity to prove yourself? There's no harm in them seeing what you have to offer. It sucks, but it's all we've really got until SE attempts to buff us again....

I'm gonna be frank - unless O4S is some kind of monster, our group has yet to meet any DPS check in Omega Savage that has been problematic for our group, and we have a MCH instead of a BRD. That's not to say the job doesn't need tweaks, but it's the same with SMN really - if your group is failing DPS checks on the first two raid floors, the problem isn't likely just the SMN/MCH, it's all the DPS in your group.

A more realistic issue is that BRD brings higher numbers than MCH AND a boatload of support buffs too. A thirty-second magical or physical defense buff every three minutes? A free single-target Largesse for one of your tanks? A constant rolling 2% crit buff? A straight-up 3% group-wise damage increase in Foe Requiem? Yeah, those are pretty solid tools to have, and Hypercharge may not be enough in comparison.

Waited like a couple of hours with open MCH slot for o3s weekly kill(granted all other slots were open except casters), no MCH joined... Actually nobody joined so we just took bonus nin lol...
But pretty much if I get MCH in the party I expect subpar dps even lower than what I would except from a smn(despite me doing pretty ok-ish).
Also in pf I saw all kinds of parties for savages with slots open for everybody - smn\mch\blms\whatever without much "meta comp" memes.(EU data center).
What I see from fflogs about DPS shows that it's pretty much up to player skills. Every job can do around 4k which is enough to clear any Omega savages easily. Even like 3.7-3.8k should be enough.

Again people are only comparing MCH to BRD thinking that some how "physical ranged dps" is some sort of unique position that one can only replace one with the other. Right now if there is no BRD around, it is better to take any other DPS class over MCH (except maybe SMN) if you want to maximize your dps. Yes, this accounts for MCH utility.

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Originally Posted by Jilliebeans

yes am talking about you "Machinist"... :mad::mad::mad:

should i rant some more? >.>

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That's not the problem...really. If you want to raid as MCH, you can and you should. DPS is not very important in omega, and any party that refuses a MCH is probably bad anyway so it's better if you stay away from it. Also, this game allows you to quickly level other jobs. MCH can just switch to brd if they're not satisfied with the current MCH, or any other job. The only problem is that MCH right now is noticeably weaker than brd. It's only a matter of job balance, there's no content that can't be cleared with a MCH in your party. But because job balance is important in a game like this, there aren't many players that want to play mch. There are very few players that will stick with a job because they enjoy it even if that job is clearly underpowered. Some probably feel like a burden and switched to brd just to feel useful again. It doesn't help that mch was a overpowered abomination for the last part of hw. Just like SCH. We have 2 jobs that went from being stupidly op to being the worst among their peers, the outrage was to be expected.

O4S is a monster, the first phase is basically a giant DPS check.

Nobody wants the blm, they all want red

Have you ever thought that those Bards were once Machinist too? but had to play Bard because... I'll leave it at there.

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Originally Posted by Jilliebeans

yes am talking about you "Machinist"... :mad::mad::mad:

"MCH dps isnt great"
"We prefer BRD"
"sorry, cant tag you along because we already have a BRD"
"SPOT is taken by a BRD sorry"

should i rant some more? >.>

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/femroe e-hug

There are two statements that are unreasonable, and two that are perfectly reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Jilliebeans

"MCH dps isnt great"
"We prefer BRD"

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This is unreasonable because MCH still fits their role as the Ranged DPS, with a vulnerability up debuff even. You're not the only one though. BLMs and SMNs usually get the short end of the stick as well in a minority of groups; they just want RDM for its mobility and utility, while some prefer BRD for its superior supportive abilities.

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Originally Posted by Jilliebeans

"sorry, cant tag you along because we already have a BRD"
"SPOT is taken by a BRD sorry"

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This is reasonable because another Ranged DPS has taken the slot. It is possible that an MCH had taken the spot as well. In a raid, we would desire only one Ranged DPS, so look for a group that has a free ranged DPS slot. When the above happens, just keep looking.

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Originally Posted by Genoreaper

Nobody wants the blm, they all want red

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Go look at top 10 dps for all savage. It's nothing but sam and blm with the occasional monk.

I got my O2S clear on BRD in a pug, alongside a SAM, BLM, and MCH. Honestly, I believe MCH deserves some buffs but clearly they shouldn't be blocked out of parties when they can clear just fine even in a non-optimal comp. In the case of a static, either a BRD or MCH taking the ranged position should be fine. Just keep looking for parties - players that block out specific classes usually aren't worth playing with anyway.

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Originally Posted by Genoreaper

Nobody wants the blm, they all want red

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That's because they already have a SAM or a MNK, since BLM's damage is on par with them

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Originally Posted by Elleia

Just keep looking for parties - players that block out specific classes usually aren't worth playing with anyway.

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Kinda true - most of them lack in skill themselves trying to hide their inexperience by overkill dps and phase hooping. You know it's always easier to point mistakes and weakness on others than on yourself.

edit: had a nice experience yesterday in this regards...

I was asked through a LS to help some random to get his Lakshmi clear – np joined as smn cause both healer spots were already taken. The random one who needed the clear was a Mnk, let's call him "John Doe". The mixed up grp was easily able to get that clear, so far so good. But just after the clear the lovely John Doe opened up a pf to farm accessories – guess what? smn/sch/mch were locked out in his own farm party. ^^ – so leeching clears by others is totally okay (no matter which cls') but than they don't wanna see you ever again höhö - nice community indeed.

as long as the jibs are nit balanced and there still +/- one meta..

is as long as some jobs will still have issues.., as blm was kicked out of a party just as it filled, ti be replaced by a rdm..., same would have happened to me as smn..

I can feel the mch

My static went in blind on our first week of raiding and downed O1s and O2s with a MCH, DRG, and a SCH in our group. It can be done with "non-viable" jobs so long as you do your part, are competent, and your team works well together. Unfortunatly a lot of people playing at being hard core tend to not understand that. Hang in there!

As OriWhitedeer mentioned, this is why a static tops the PF any day. The PF is full of people who have no patience for anything but "clear it as fast and easily as possible". You pay for the game, it's your money and your character to do as you please. All of this content can be done with any job regardless of efficiency, so a static of people you know and that will support you is the best thing you can do for yourself. Get to know each other, strengths and weaknesses, address issues and fix problems to get the clears.

ya this is so true <3

"i didn't watch guide"

*You leave xxxxxxx party.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I'm gonna be frank - unless O4S is some kind of monster, our group has yet to meet any DPS check in Omega Savage that has been problematic for our group, and we have a MCH instead of a BRD.

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When I cleared o4s last week, it was close enough of a dps check that our clear would've been a wipe if I was a machinist instead of a bard. We killed him just as the hard enrage cast completed, so it doesn't get any closer than that.

As people get more gear it will be less of an issue, but boy I'm glad I didn't stick to my machinist for progression in week 1, I would've let my raid down.

I actually think BLM is pulling a bit more DPS than SAM is now...

Hasn't it already been proven by some reliable sources that a MCH can pull comparable numbers to a BRD, albeit with a bit more work perhaps? (Don't chime in with the support thing, please. Unless support kills a boss, in the end the damage done is what really matters.)

No offense, but I call BS on the idea that your clear would've been a wipe purely if you'd have gone as a MCH instead of a BRD. Congrats on the clear all the same.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

No offense, but I call BS on the idea that your clear would've been a wipe purely if you'd have gone as a MCH instead of a BRD. Congrats on the clear all the same.

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yeah I think the same way... if you clear something close to enrage everybody have to improve for farming not just "the weakest" dd in comp. blaming the short-to-enrage dps isnt a single member issue but a whole grp issue in general - sure it is easier in progress to take the most effective cls but after the clear knowing the mechanics you should be able to clear/farm it with any cls - if not, just back to first sentence "everybody has to improve" ^^

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Hasn't it already been proven by some reliable sources that a MCH can pull comparable numbers to a BRD, albeit with a bit more work perhaps? (Don't chime in with the support thing, please. Unless support kills a boss, in the end the damage done is what really matters.)

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Current data on FF Logs shows MCH and BRD close to even for some fights, and BRD sometimes significantly beating MCH on others. I am not sure how much of this is due to a combination of lucky crits and multi-dotting vs. the party padding the BRD's numbers with buffs, but the best BRD run of O3S at the moment is 500 DPS better than the best MCH run. (There are also 10x as many BRD parses as MCH parses, so take that with a grain of salt. ...Or the truckload you probably already have as a MCH player.)

Regarding support, excluding damage buffs (which BRD does provide very slightly more of), support doesn't directly help you beat enrage, but it does help. Every death means less damage. I am working on O3S at the moment as a BRD, and BRD can mitigate damage in ways that MCH cannot. MCH is great for taking the edge off tankbusters and raidwide damage spikes, but the really scary parts for my group are the constant offtank damage during White Flame and the raidwide damage from books. I can provide 10% mitigation for the entirety of both as BRD, while MCH can only mitigate some of the time until the add dies, and cannot mitigate books at all due to lack of a target. MCH has nothing like the healing buff that BRD can provide to aid in healing the offtank during add phases, and I've saved some people from burning to death after screwing up dodging the fire spell with my status cleanse. Maybe none of this matters of your party has good gear and never make mistakes, but neither of those things are true for me right not.

Troubadour has been way more useful than dismantle in o4s from what I've seen so far. The 30s long duration is insane and at various points in the fight it covers not one but multiple consecutive mechanics. Now it could be just luck so far, maybe some fights have mechanic timings or combinations of mechanics that favour dismantle over troubadour, who knows? I won't chalk this one up as a win for bard as it could go either way.

However, there are some issues that go beyond just timing and luck. Some testing by people in a discord I'm in seems to indicate that the enrage punches near the end of the fight function like holy bleed in a12s too, where the damage comes from an invisible entity and is not affected by debuffs on the primary boss. Troubadour really shines there since it's a party buff, while dismantle does nothing - the target requirement of dismantle is a liability I have pointed out multiple times in the past. Who knows what other mechanics function similarly, but we don't know about because people don't test for it?

Minne also puts in some work letting you pull off gimmicks like giving your scholar an extra padded adlo-deploy. You can't discount these things as not contributing to fight success, less healing needed means more time for healers to DPS, and bigger safety margins are important in a fight where a single death means you won't meet the enrage timer.

As for their straightforward raid DPS contribution, it's pretty close wasn't it? You have hypercharge on one hand, vs 2% crit constantly up, plus 3% damage up foes and 15% dhit buffs on demand. I believe bard has a slight edge here, the last time someone did the math - I'll take their word for it but I'm happy to see someone try to recalculate it. The point is, you need every edge you can get no matter how small it might be, and that goes for the personal DPS both jobs bring as well.

Also, I'm told that the moogle that sits on my shoulder and adds up my damage isn't correctly factoring in the effect of direct hit on dots as well - which means that any bard numbers you might be seeing could be an underestimation as well.

The support and easier dmg output is exactly why people are taking brd instead of mch for savage progression. Which sadly no matter how you look at it certain jobs are going to be the best for learning fights due to less punishing kits.

I've been playing mch almost exclusively and have not had a single party exclude me for being mch, whether it's for savage or ex primals or whatever. I've also never had anyone make negative comments about my class or my damage. Killed ex primals around 60 times or so each and gotten to v3s both last week and this week and then ran v1s a couple extra times for fun, and not once has my class caused any negativity at all. I think people here are grossly overstating how big of an issue this is. If you know how to play you will be first or second highest dps in most party finder groups anyway.

I certainly don't dispute the amount of support or less-convoluted approach to damage a BRD offers one bit. Those are things I always loved and still do about the job. I only have issue with the misconception that their support (won't include damage due to sometimes similar numbers) is absolutely needed for progression. It's great to have, and no one would question that, but it is entirely possible to progress even without it.

I saw a recent calculation in which bard's rDPS contribution seems to be almost double that of MCH's :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...24/unknown.png

Take this for a grant of salt but I do believe that 2% constant crit buff is much more that what people usually credit it for

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Hasn't it already been proven by some reliable sources that a MCH can pull comparable numbers to a BRD

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The theoretical 40 DPS higher does not make up for the 200 lower rDPS. In any fight that cuts it close, that will always be the deciding factor. Once people get better that won't be the case, but in progression it will always be the case.

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Originally Posted by Miridori

I saw a recent calculation in which bard's rDPS contribution seems to be almost double that of MCH's :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...24/unknown.png

Take this for a grant of salt but I do believe that 2% constant crit buff is much more that what people usually credit it for

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This was formula'd on the japanese forum ages ago:
http://i.imgur.com/uiGorh5.jpg
I ended up doing an extremely shoddy translation job but I can't find it. But when you take numbers of actual uptime it differs from this images uptime
i.e; 15% hypercharge for Susanoo
25% for Lak, Alte, Onslaught, and hali
Which is indeed accurate for the post that you pulled out of discord (that being a 1.25% rDPS increase for MCH and near double for BRD). You can do the experiment on your own and pull form the middle 30 to bring up the numbers and then average them which will still give you a near 25% uptime which leads to 1.25%.

Naturally that ends up being tight right now. On the topic of DPS, i generally bring 3.8k-3.9k to most of the fights while also fighting against slightly more lag than what a normal player would face. That said, that requires as good of a rotation I can think of while also keeping up mechanics

I think we've come full circle back to the fact that, regardless of damage/support disparities, both jobs have shown themselves fully capable of being able to progress. Even if one is more favorable than the other, the fact that plenty of MCHs are still capable of progressing this tier shows how pointless the idea of rejecting one in favor of the other is.

This is in no way me saying that MCH is fine as is (let me be clear on that lest someone try to misquote me). Ultimately choose and bring what you want for progression, but both can pull it off, so rejecting anything really is a moot point.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

the fact that plenty of MCHs are still capable of progressing this tier shows how pointless the idea of rejecting one in favor of the other is.

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Plenty?
Know how many MCH have cleared V4S? How about parses. Do you know how many parses of V4S have been submitted?
Where are you in your progression?
I can pull 3.8-4k rather consistently (which is what SSS says I need to pull) so I don't feel like I'll have much to worry about in terms of clearing (and has indeed not been the case thus far). But I don't think SE intentionally designed a tier in mind where only the 85 percentile and higher can knock it over.

While I don't see anything wrong with the statement "MCH are capable of progressing" it certainly ain't going to be "plenty" of them that end up making it. ( The least of these reasons being not invited because people are blowing their faults out of proportion)

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

--snip--

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5. There have been 5 submitted MCH parses of V4S. They are the lowest personal DPS by any metric you choose to look at while bringing half the rDPS increase of a BRD. In a world of >1% wipes and kills literally >1s before hard enrage it is nobody's fault but SE's that MCH are being left out in the cold. For trivial content, sure, who cares, it's trivial. Real progression is a whole different game where refusal to adapt is a real detriment to your group, a point which was hammered home to me years ago during Heroic Cho'gall when our Arcane Mage flat out refused to change to Fire. (There was a mechanic that gave some sort of massive crit bonus which hugely benefited Fire Mages to the point that not having one in the group made the fight nearly impossible early on.)

"Plenty" of them won't make it when the general misconception that they can't do it or should switch to BRD so that they aren't "holding their group back" goes unchallenged.

And no, I don't know how many have cleared V4S. I really don't care how many have or haven't, and it's entirely beside the larger point I intended to make. I myself am not even there yet, but I do know I've had no trouble progressing in a group that's neither 100% perfect, nor a meta comp at all. You said it yourself that people are blowing faults out of proportion. That's WHY I even bother speaking up; I'm not okay with the idea of people abandoning or rejecting a job they like/are good at/are interested in, and is fully capable of clearing, just because the usual community overreaction paints a picture that it's impossible.

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Originally Posted by OriWhitedeer

It can be done with "non-viable" jobs so long as you do your part, are competent, and your team works well together. Unfortunatly a lot of people playing at being hard core tend to not understand that. Hang in there!

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I didn't see this on page 2 til now. This is all I've been trying to say.

You seem to miss the point altogether. Working harder 90% to achieve the least feels a lot worse than working at 60% to achieve the average. Given how execution heavy MCH is with their simple simple simple rotation, losing a WF in 10 minutes from doing improper wildfires will give you a rather large blow. My first clear had me just like that. While I can do up to 4k on alt roite my first clear on release was at 3.5k (actually just barely under). Try taking that 3.5k (or even 3.6-3.7k) into V3S and seeing what happens. That's a wipe to enrage. And I can guarantee you that most MCH don't play at the level to never make a mistake ever that I had to practice and practice and practice to do (mostly to compensate for the lag that I get on my weaves).


But to help prove my point. Go do an experiment for me. Do whatever rotation you use and go beat up the V4S dummy. I can clear that rather solidly at ilvl 321. Tell me how you fare. Denying MCH out of your V3S and V4S clears isn't stupid or unfounded. It's simple math. Unless that MCH is 70th percentile he probably can't even perform well enough to destroy a V3S target dummy let alone push a clear in a final phase party. That's a 30% chance you get a MCH worth his salt or pray to god you have a godlike SAM or BLM who can make up that difference. The "out of proportion" i'm talking about is people not even taking them to something as easy as V1S and V2S for some reason.

Which I feel like this is going to be taken wrongly so let me also add this:

YOU, yes YOU anybody who reads this, can and should be able to clear V3S and V4S (with enough practice). So don't let it get to you if you get denied out of a party because some dweebs think you're not up to snuff. It's not because you're bad, it's just because there's a higher chance of you being the "average" mch and not the "best" mch

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Originally Posted by Elleia

Honestly, I believe MCH deserves some buffs but clearly they shouldn't be blocked out of parties when they can clear just fine even in a non-optimal comp. In the case of a static, either a BRD or MCH taking the ranged position should be fine.

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Originally Posted by OriWhitedeer

It can be done with "non-viable" jobs so long as you do your part, are competent, and your team works well together. Unfortunatly a lot of people playing at being hard core tend to not understand that.

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

anybody who reads this, can and should be able to clear V3S and V4S (with enough practice). So don't let it get to you if you get denied out of a party because some dweebs think you're not up to snuff.

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With regards to the central topic of being rejected from parties, this really is all that need be said on it. This isn't about the math behind it. This isn't about who hits what and how hard. This is purely about whether it makes sense to be rejected from any of the current raids as a MCH, and it doesn't. Can a Bard do it better? Sure. But if your group doesn't have one or there isn't one available, a MCH can do it too. That's really just it. Just the raw fact that any capable player can get the job done, even if you're a MCH. And that "average/best" comment can be applied to any job. We all know WHY people are rejecting MCH. All I'm saying, all I've been saying, is that it's pretty pointless to unilaterally do so.

Being able to do something and doing it are two different things. We could hypothetically be a top 1 percentile MCH but we're not.

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And that "average/best" comment can be applied to any job.

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The exception being that an average MNK is still clearing V2S without seeing enrage. While it's impossible to extrapolate what a MCH is now given how nonexistant there parses are for V3S a 50% BRD does enough damage that his rDPS contribution alone would carry their group to clear if it came close because everybody was doing the bare minimal to clear. (and it does indeed come close)

In reference to MCH personal DPS and party acceptance:
You seem to think that nobody has the right to reject a MCH when there's a realistic chance that if he's average mcaverage he won't be pushing your clear before enrage. My first V2S attempt the weekend after release had us blowing up to enrage with no dps deaths. At that time I was still doing 3.6k. We didn't EVEN clear it normally. The boss AI broke and he did another DPS rotation instead of doing his enrage. I can do 3.9k to 4.1k now on that fight but that's because I spent hours practicing and finding ways to compensate for lag that I eat. And then there's screw-up recovery. I've seen a SAM die and still pull 3.8k. You know how much that MCH is going to hit if he dies? Up to 1k below that depending on where in his rotation he died.

On the topic of defensive cooldowns, there's the tools you have:
For V3 a dismantle is only covering a single AoE and that boss throws out ton of them and critical hit (tank buster) as well as summoning high damage adds that hit like nuclear explosions to the poor tank who has to deal with that. I use dismantle for the boss aoe (or tank buster depending on where the tank is at in his health+cooldowns), palisade on the sub tank when something like Apanda rolls out, and just pray the healers can handle the post book or add phase when lots of damage is coming to everybody. For library in particular it gets really dicey because you have to dismantle before stacks and spreads so people can outright survive if they got graced by so much as a stray wind. This entire situation would be mitigated far better with a BRD. The only time the inverse is actually true is for V4S where dismantle lower cooldown trumps all .

For Clarity:
It's fully possible to clear with any comp. And any MCH can clear if he wants to put in the work. But people are full within their rights to reject a MCH for V3S and V4S because your enrage timers are nowhere close to as generous as they are with V1S and V2S. This has nothing to do with the potential of that MCH being of the level of the 0.5% MCH that have even cleared Neo Exdeath. It has to do with simple math. He's far less likely to be on that level than he his of being average. And you don't need an average MCH, you need an exceptional MCH. Because an exceptional MCH can be on par with an above average SAM and push you to a clear in the case that anybody dies. (and I should note that it's easy to say "don't die" but that doesn't change the fact that mistakes happen, and I've seen parties disband on such simple things like Zurvan even if they were only wiping on enrage)

As a disclaimer:
This is only when taking into consideration "do are PF's being irrational from saying "no MCH on our V4S"
This is completely different when taking a farm party with gear into consideration
But for progression? Forget it. I'd rather make a party comp where somebody can die and it won't be the death of a run 9 minutes into it. Yes that would indeed mean "i'm bad", and because I'm bad I need my safetynet. Think of it like an aircraft carrier. On the flight deck they have nets on the side of the ship. You'd rather not have to use them, but the few times I've seen them be used they were great to have.

Note: This is why statics exist. My static sure was accommodating with me no matter how many times we enraged when we were doing V1S and V2S and I eventually paid them back by getting better.
Though we're like 6/8 out of this "static" so I guess it's a "dynamic" :cool:

/headdesk

Okay.

How does ait feel to be rejected in raid party? Honestly.... really good. I was a FFXI Dragoon.... so watching others suffer after years of LFG.... kinda gives me wood.