RDM is, in my opinion, one of the worst pvp jobs in the game currently. It's horrendous in frontline, and mediocre in feast, and I hope the devs take note and give it some significant buffs in the future.
I think their biggest problems are:
1. They're GCD locked. They have no source of significant off GCD damage, all of their damage comes from GCD spells/weaponskills. This wouldn't really be that big of a problem, BLM is similar in that respect, but the difference in BLM spells hit like a truck and they can pump out Fire IVs consistently. RDM just doesn't have the damage to justify having no off GCD damage source.
2. They need to go into melee range to deal max damage. Ranged jobs have the lowest HP and generally weakest defenses out of all roles, so going into melee range is almost a guaranteed death sentence. This is easily seen in Frontline, where RDM are easy pickin'. You can kind of play around this by preparing the first 2 parts of your melee combo, and then only gap closing onto your target to use the finisher + verflare/verholy and jump back, but that means you're basically wasting the first part of your combo. For a ranged job that's required to go into melee range, I feel like their melee combo should either deal more damage, or come out significantly faster, because currently it's just not worth the risk.
They have other problems too but they're not as big as the first two.
3. They have the worst self sustain. I find this one kind of funny because RDM is a job that has an actual, really good curative spell in their PVE arsenal, whereas BLM has none and SMN has a significantly "meh" one. Of course pve should have no bearing on pvp balance, but the other two casters have ways to heal themselves. Yes, even BLM does for those that don't know. Convert restores 25% of their max HP and MP, at the cost of dropping Enochian. SMN has Energy Drain of course. So now we have a caster job with no way of healing themselves, throwing theirself into the enemy team. I think some form of heal wouldn't be too much to ask for. It could have a cost in the same way SMN and BLM trade damage for self-sustain.
4. They have the worst CC of all ranged jobs. Their only form of cc is heavy, and it's aoe. That's actually not too bad on the surface, but once you take into account the fact that it's on the GCD and requires you to be in melee range to use it....Yeah. The least they could do is make Flunge off GCD so that when they jump in it's harder for their target to get away, I think it's only fair considering the risk that RDMs put themselves in.
Some quick fixes I can think of is just increase RDM damage overall if they want to keep them GCD locked. Maybe a slight increase on jolt/impact on their Ver spells, and a significant damage increase to their melee combo to make up for the risk. I think Flunge should also be off GCD, too.
Job Feedback: RDM
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07-25-2017, 09:44 PMPraesulJob Feedback: RDM
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07-25-2017, 10:08 PMNorthernLadMSP
The only thing I agree with is the self heal point. I definitely think it's strange that of the three casters they have the most powerful heal in PVE, but literally nothing in PVP.
As for other buffs, I do not agree. I frequently see RDMs with Battle High/Battle Fever so they're obviously capable of good damage/kills. They're OP in PVE, they don't need to be OP in PVP as well. -
07-25-2017, 10:13 PMPraesulYou can get battle fever as a healer. Getting fever shouldn't be the benchmark for whether or not a job is good, plenty of people have done alright on bad pvp jobs in the past but that doesn't mean they're okay from a balance perspective. Why play a bad job just to put in more effort and in the end only get worse or similar results AT BEST?Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
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07-25-2017, 10:24 PMNorthernLadMSP
Yep, I'm aware anyone can get BH/BF. My point was more that they are just fine in PVP minus the no self heal. You might not think they're as powerful as they should be, but that doesn't mean they're bad.
They're on par with SMN (IMO) and probably a bit better than BLM -
07-25-2017, 10:34 PMPraesulHow are they fine when they have to THROW THEMSELVES AT THE ENEMY to deal damage? All the other ranged jobs do it with safety and have off GCDs to actually burst (BLM being the exception of course). All the other ranged jobs also have pretty good sustained damage. When a BLM isn't using foul/flare they have Fire IV and Thunder. SMN has aetherflow abilities, dots, wyrmwave, and being able to move on the go. BRD has dots and mobility along with off GCD burst. MCH is the one I'm least familiar with so I can't comment on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
May as well play a melee job. -
07-25-2017, 11:13 PMNorthernLadMSP
The combo/finisher already does a combined potency of 6,500 and you want it stronger? Yeah, that would be insanely broken.
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07-25-2017, 11:24 PMPraesulBLM does 7250 potency in two GCDs. From range.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
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07-25-2017, 11:36 PMNorthernLadMSPYes and they have long cast times as well as more time consuming requirements to even have access (Foul). You can often easily avoid them by simply moving out of range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Praesul
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07-25-2017, 11:44 PMNorthernLadMSP
Foul is also not even an option if you're in Astral Fire as it changes to Flare which is only 3,000.
So, you're never going to be able to cast Fire IV and then immediately follow up with Foul (I'm assuming that is where you're getting the 7,250 potency). -
07-25-2017, 11:45 PMPraesulRDM also has a time consuming aspect before they have access to their melee combo: Black/White mana. And yet BLM can do their burst from range, fire IV is only a 2.18 sec cast time and Foul can be instantly casted right after. RDM can't skip to the end of their combo, and their damage outside of it sucks. RDM sustained damage is using jolt/impact (which cost MP) or verspells which hit for wet noodle damage. While BLM is waiting for Polyglot, they're throwing out Fire IVs and thunder, and sleeping people.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
Convert drops Astral/Umbral.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
Although, my point isn't to make RDM and BLM identical copies of each other. I'm just drawing comparisons to show what other jobs can do at less risk to themselves. I think the concept of RDM is cool, I just think it needs some help. Maybe not every fix I listed would be right, but SOMETHING has to be done and I feel like their melee combo doing more damage, OR their ranged spells dealing more damage (so as to give them the option of applying pressure from range) would be a good start. -
07-25-2017, 11:56 PMNorthernLadMSP
WOW, I honestly had no idea Convert dropped them (haven't played BLM much). That's actually insanely good to know!
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07-25-2017, 11:58 PMPraesulYeah when i first played the job I thought Foul would be completely useless. I couldn't think of any situation where waiting to drop astral/umbral was a good choice except maybe if you had polyglot and then were out of combat for a long time, and even then it felt way too niche. Then I actually read Convert's tooltip and it made sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
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07-25-2017, 11:59 PMNorthernLadMSP
So, how would you compare them to SMN? That is the job I've mainly stuck with, along with some BRD and MCH here and there.
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07-26-2017, 12:04 AMPraesulIndividually all of SMN's spells deal less damage than their other counterparts, but that's okay considering they apply constant pressure pretty much nonstop. They essentially switch between two "burst phases", dreadwyrm and than bahamut. During dreadywrm your dots are ticking and have a potent 1.5k GCD spell to use along with the 2000 potency finisher from Deathflare. After that when you enkindle bahamut, you're now applying pressure with dots, pet damage, and your ruin 3 (which while it does less damage, it's instant cast and being supplemented by pet damage) and can still use your aetherflow abilities (they're locked in dreadwyrm trance). So they switch between their two damage phases and...basically never stop. When they're done with one, the other just about comes up.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
I think SMN is in a really good spot because they have pretty good CC and deal a lot of damage, but that damage doesn't happen all at once. BLM on the other hand deals really good sustained AND burst damage, but they have no off GCDs to catch people by surprise or help to secure kills so I think it balances out. BLM is also more affected by LOSing compared to SMN.
I think the other two casters are in a fine state, personally. -
07-26-2017, 12:41 AMFlowroro
The real question is whether or not they plan to change RDM's playstyle.
If they don't plan to change their kit whatsoever, than these guys at the very least need an HP increase.
Fact of the matter is, you need to put out so much work to get your damage snowballing.
> Building up White/Black Mana
> Jumping into melee to do a 3 part melee combo
> walk out to finally get your 3k potency spells?
Seems like so much work when all the other Ranged Roles can rack up damage from a distance with little risk. -
07-26-2017, 01:02 AMMirch
There is the additional skill as self heal.
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07-26-2017, 06:35 AMHyrist
I don't see where people seem to get this idea that RDM is at all poor in PvP. Listing its flaws compared to a class with completely different structure and gameplay isn't how it works. RDM fits well in a dive composition and a poke composition. Its CC issues were resolved with the last patch, honestly, and its damage is fine considering how consistent its performance is.
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07-26-2017, 07:08 AMBloodRubyXII
A lot of people are also bringing up BLM for comparison - just remember, they can fire IV into instant flare and they can also instant sleep. Sleep is probably one of the strongest CCs in the game, no cooldown, decent duration and you can peel for ages with it. RDM brings virtually no utility. It's probably on par with MCH right now with being one of the worst range slots for 4s. Also having to be in and out of melee in PvP is incredibly irritating, rather be a SAM, have better overall damage, and an escape than be an RDM. Also because of the tick system even trying to LoS sleep at times can just be entirely irrelevant since you'll go behind a wall and it still hits you.
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07-26-2017, 10:20 AMHyrist
Eh, each to their own opinion, I guess.
Just somethings to keep in mind, both noticed on paper and just in gameplay in general - as I play this in PvP a lot.
Red Mage has both a close and an escape tool. It's burst is up frequently (Thanks to the tool that also resets both gap closer and escape). The risk of me diving in is usually minimal, and also makes melee very wary of chasing due to fear of getting burst themselves.
In frontline, the mobility is really good if you're smart about it. Corps-a-crops an enemy, followed by Flenge get in front of them and then displacement. You now have free casting time as they have to catch up to and pass you, which may also bring Corps-a-corps up again. (Usually this is also assuming you have fellows chasing to pincer them in.)
It's also wise to keep in mind that Both Displacement and Corps-a-corps does the same damage as Verstone/fire. Paired with a Dualcast of Jolt II/Impact, that's 4150 on a 10 second timer. Thanks to the adjustments to MP cost adjustments, you should be able to do that three times over a 30 second period before MP/TP runs out.
Now, I'm all for buffs but I find people underestimate a RDM's tricks in PvP ... a lot. -
07-26-2017, 10:46 AMPraesulRDM has an escape tool out of neccessity, not as a bonus. It'd be silly to throw them into melee range and not give them something to get out. The thing is, all you need is one stun, sleep, or bind once they jump in and they're fucked. It's very noticable when a RDM jumps into a group of people, and if they jump in just to jump out, what the hell was the point in going in in the first place if you dealt no damage? The risk is of course minimized in feast (at least in 4v4) since there's less people to pounce on them, and I do think they're slightly better in small scale pvp but still behind the other two casters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Flunge delays your combo because it's on the GCD. I don't really see the point in using it unless someone popped sprint or you know they have their escape tool ready, since you move at the exact same speed as everyone else the only reason you'd need to slow people down is if they're going faster than you in the first place. It's an alright tool in 1v1 I suppose but in group fights, every second you're in melee is risky, and by using flunge you're extending the time you're vulnerable even longer. Of course you could justify this by saying "well don't just jump into a group of people" which I would agree with, but then that begs the question...Why play RDM? Melee go through the same risks but they're tankier, have off GCDs, and access to melee LB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
BLM does more damage in two GCDs (Just two Fire IVs) and from range. SMN does similar amounts of damage in three GCDs, along with fester and energy drain, with dots ticking right after. And they can do it all while moving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
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07-26-2017, 11:05 AMSunako
It is funny red mage complain about defensive. You have 10 sec cooldown on charge and back step + flunge that allow kite melees so easily. While I played melee class, red mage was most annoy target kill from caster classes. If we compare summoner that have 0 teleport skills or 0 instant cc skills. Only what you can do use energy drain that heal 1k hp. You can try cast tri bind if you dont die before you finish the cast. I would say red mage have lot more options survive in general.
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07-26-2017, 11:32 AMHyrist
Napkin math arguments about the differences between a melee class, a turret, and a Job that can effectively alternate between both and is a threat on both fronts. It's fine to sit and look at stats but play the class and actually see it preform. I've no problem against melee, or straight mages.
Bards and Machinests are the most annoying due to their kiting while dpsing, but that's about it. I hear these complaints but they don't really pan out in gameplay to me. -
07-26-2017, 11:44 AMPraesulOf course I'm using math. This is an MMO, it's primarly math. All the potencies are there specifically so players know exactly how much damage/healing is being done, it'd pointless to NOT look at math.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
And in what world is RDM a threat from range? The most damage they can do without touching any of their melee abilities at all is 2750 potency in two GCDs. Something that can't even be done indefinitely, since they'll run out of MP and must restort to lower potency spells. You can poke, but those functions are just their so you have something to do before the moneyshot.
Also nothing is stopping the other ranged jobs from being a threat in melee range. Their damage doesn't stop just because someone is on top of them, they don't have to stop casting. Is it more dangerous? Of course, being in melee range is dangerous. But they're also not required to be in melee to be a threat, yet if they choose to sit there and use their damaging abilities they still can be, while still having the option of moving WHILE THEY'RE DEALING DAMAGE (obviously this doesn't apply to BLM, but that's because their GCD damage is higher than the other jobs to compensate) -
07-26-2017, 01:18 PMHyrist
I said napkin math. You're not figuring in timing and damage windows.
A Black Mage needs a full 2 GCDs to cast two spells. This means, if a target runs out of range or line of sight in one GCD, they miss that second attack. It is much less likely for a Red Mage to do so - because of the mechanics of Dualcast.
So yes, it's two global cooldowns, but only one of which is required to be frontloaded by the Red Mage, who can spend the other dipping in cover or following up with an off global cooldown skill (such as a heal, bolt, shifting targets with monomachy etc.
Same goes for the Melee risk calculation. Red Mage's melee cooldown for the first two skills is 1.5s as opposed to the 2.18 of a traited spellcast. No other class has this truncated GCD. You asked why spare the time to use Flunge? Because it's ALSO on this truncated GCD and deals 1000 potency to its target. It dosen't interrupt anything, it hits as hard as Jolt II, and has a faster recast to boot.
Red Mage is all about exploiting damage windows. It's not a factor someone who does not play the job well can understand just looking at potency alone without and understanding of how that plays out in real time.
Yes, a Red Mage only gets 2750 at a time at range before 'risking' melee range, that's more than enough poke to execute someone before they turn the corner though, because the full of that burst happens at the 2.18s mark, not the 4.36s.
And a person who tries to close in on RDM to attack them, risks getting burst 9650 in less than seven seconds ( CaC > 1.5 >1.5 > 2.3 Displacement > Finish) and that includes a free retreat before the finish.
Can a Black Mage outdamage that? Sure, but he's stationary the entire time, must invest more time beforehand to access the full burst and susceptible to having to reinvest the cast time if he is at all interrupted before cast is complete. Meanwhile, each step in RDM's burst combo is instant, you could stun, sleep, and silence him sequentially and unless you were perfect in your CC timing or outright killed him, he'd still get the full combo off.
All these factors need to be considered before crying wolf that Red Mage needs further buffs. Its damage is very flexible and it has deceptively powerful burst, on top of the fact that it is highly mobile. Yes, as a necessity, but that makes it all the more difficult for enemies to keep track of. I'd say if anything it could use a bit more utility in its kit, though an AoE Weight on global cooldown that deals more than its base cast to the first target makes it difficult to chose what other utility to go for. -
07-26-2017, 01:47 PMAlistaireConsidering how completely unrelated the 2 are, a more accurate statement would be "Being OP in PvE is no reason or excuse for it to be bad in PvP."Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
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07-26-2017, 03:33 PMPraesulBLM can do the same damn thing. Fire IV is 2.18 secs, and can be immediately followed up by an instant blizzard I (which is instant cast because being in the opposite element makes it instant), that's 3500 potency in 2 GCDs. And let's not ignore the fact that BRD and MCH can do the same thing with no cast times at all whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
If you use Flunge, you're stalling your combo by 1.5 secs for whatever arbitrary reason. So now your full combo goes from (1.5 + 1.5 + 2.3) to 6.8 with the addition of flunge because it's on GCD. That's an extra 1.5 seconds that you're vulnerable, unless you use your "escape" early just to get away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Literally every single damage dealing job is about exploiting damage windows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
All the other ranged jobs can poke for about the same amount, while also being able to move BRD/MCH don't even require initial cast times, because they have none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
7 Seconds is not burst. No one is going to go 7 seconds without recieving even one heal during that time unless they're just caught out alone, and jobs shouldn't be balanced around the "caught with their pants down" factor. The most you could argue is that using the first two parts of your combo counts as prep, and then redoublement + Verflare/Verholy is the real burst because it comes in two GCDs. 5750 potency is nothing to scoff at in two GCDs that's for sure, but it comes with the requirement of having to hit people in melee range first to even use it, on top of having to build the right amount of black/white mana to get there. Other ranged jobs have similar requirements (BLM has polyglot, SMN is gated by Aetherflow and Dreadwyrm etc etc.) but they don't have the extra requirement of having to be in melee range to use their abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Any job with a cast time is, even RDM is at the mercy of LoSing. I'll give RDM that the initial cast itself from jolt/ver spells is harder to avoid since it casts faster, but their damage is low. Unless someone is REALLY that close to death the "guaranteed poke" you get is not worth much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Also you don't have to CC any job perfectly to stop their burst. You just have to cc them at any point when they're doing it. RDM jumps in, gets stunned either during the first or second part of their combo for example, that gives time for a heal on the target, now that kill is gone. Of course most jobs are susceptible to this, right? But proper melee like take MNK for instance, have one GCD + 2 off GCD burst. 1250 gcd + 2000 off gcd + 2500 off GCD. 5750 potency BEFORE buffs (greased lightning and riddle of fire) in one GCD.
It's damage during melee range is okay, towards the end of it when the actual burst happens. It's damage outside of that is still abysmal though. There's hardly any flexibility either, the job is designed to build resource from range and then blow their load in melee, no ifs ands or butts. It's this half-ass hybrid that can't do either thing right. Less sustain and burst in range, less burst in melee than proper melee. There is absolutely NOTHING RDM can do better than other jobs, but it can do a bunch of things in a mediocre manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
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07-26-2017, 08:11 PMShirolumi
I wouldnt agree its horrendous in frontline. I can agree about bumping up our hp a bit but that's about in. In group situations Im doing pretty good, and they are even quite good in 1v1 too except vs Sam and Drk (and healers of course). Maybe a buff to the melee hits but a nerf to verflare/verholy would be a good change though.
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07-26-2017, 09:32 PMKfLeX
I'm enjoying rdm in 8s just need to time attacks right. But I see when I'm in the oh sh.. when I jump in at the wrong time and get focused. haven't done many 4s with it though so I can't really see how it plays out there.
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07-26-2017, 09:33 PMNorthernLadMSPAnd yet there is absolutely nothing "bad" about RDM so you point is irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistaire
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07-26-2017, 10:03 PMVejjiegirlThe only reason why your seeing so many Red Mages with battle high is because they are the gods of kill stealing. Red Mage in pvp is a very bad job compared to the other two Magic Ranged DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
Just because a job is capable at getting battle high/battle fever doesn't mean they are capable at good damage/kills, half the time it just means they are just do some sort of Ranged attack damage to targets that are already near death in frontline.
RDM just doesn't have the damage Potential and pressure that the other Magic DPS jobs have, not even remotely close.
1. Red Mage has just 10k HP and part of your burst rotation requires you to go into melee range of your target.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
2. Most of the time due to poor netcode and lag you need to also take Bolt in order to even catch a moving target to do sword combos on them.
3. The other two Magic DPS jobs can do much higher numbers than Red Mage and are much more safe to use due to being able to attack from a distance rather than needing to get close to enemies.
4. Red Mage burst is very slow between Sword Combos and there is a bad delay for Verholy/Verflare which can be prevented much easier by healers than say a Summoner bursting.
5. Flunge costs way too much, the heavy is just 3 seconds, and its not Off GCD making it pretty worthless in most situations.
like the OP said the best way to use red mage is to do the below combo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY4BCBbG4j8
(note I did not use Monomachy in the combo the numbers are actually about 10% higher for dmg)
This is the fastest combo you can do as a Red Mage, Building your 1-2 on something else (healer or tank?) then moving to your actual target to do the rotation in the video.
Sadly this dmg pales in comparison to Black mage and Summoner. -
07-26-2017, 10:10 PMNorthernLadMSP
I guess we have different experiences then. As a RDM, I never have issues with MP or TP.
I have more issues with MP on SMN as trying to cast both DOTs on multiple opponents sucks your MP dry insanely fast. -
07-26-2017, 10:58 PMVolene
Perhaps I can bring a new perspective to the table as a Bard player, seeing as in a 4v4 Feast match, we occupy the same slot and would be meant to perform a similar role.
Obviously we're in a great spot right now. Removing BOTH the cast times and the damage falloff from long range made us straight-up OP in Frontlines, there's no other way to put it. Still, the game isn't balanced around Frontlines, so I'll focus more on 4v4, which I've played plenty of before queues died in 4.05.
As it feels now, I agree that RDM is very weak, both from observation and from actual numbers. I'm pretty sure my class out-performs them in literally every way, and obviously that shouldn't be a thing because proper balance makes it more fun for everyone. As a Bard, I have better sustained damage, a (dare I say it?) better burst, better CC, better mobility, and with it, better survivability. But let's look at actual numbers.
First of all, I don't think that's fair - Jolt II -> Impact costs 3000 MP to use, and it's therefore not sustainable. If you try to use it as your bread and butter for pressure, you'll be MP starved for basically the whole match. In reality, you'll still rely a lot on Stone/Fire -> Aero/Thunder, which is actually 2250 potency. But still, for the sake of the argument, let's assume you're right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
As a Bard, my sustained damage consists of the basic Heavy Shot -> Straight Shot combo with the occasional Empyreal Arrow as TP allows (I personally run the TP trait which allows me to use it almost on cooldown, so every 5s, or every second combo, thanks to very few Repelling Shot uses), and with 2 DoTs ticking on my target (I won't consider the DoTs' initial potency as I only reapply them every 15-18s or so, so I don't think that should count in the "sustained damage" argument). Heavy Shot + Straight Shot + Empyreal Arrow + DoTs tick = 500 + 1000 + 1000 + 450 = 2950 potency. This is not even factoring the 20% bonus from Repertoire stacks from Army's Paeon if I'm in it, or Pitch Perfect which is 2000 potency that I can use every 3rd GCD if I'm in Minuet instead. Still, this conservative estimate of 2950 potency (most likely actually higher) is also delivered in just 2 GCDs, is also frontloaded because it requires no cast times whereas RDM requires at least one, and despite all that, is still higher than the (generous) 2750 potency from Red Mage from their unsustainable combo, and a lot higher than their actual spammable moves which are 2250.
Having a frontloaded follow-up GCD is an advantage over BLM for sure, but BLM spells deal more damage to compensate. And as a Bard, well, both my GCDs are frontloaded, I can always use OGCDs or move into cover as I want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Let's talk about burst now.
That's not bad, though I have to agree with Praesul that 7 seconds is no burst. The window to get a heal is extremely generous. Now, let's compare to Bard. My burst happens as Minuet is about to expire, during the transition to Army's Paeon. Basically, I will reapply fresh DoTs, prep 3 stacks of Repertoire and use Heavy Shot to have Straight Shot ready to go. Then, the burst is Pitch Perfect -> Straight Shot -> Army's Paeon -> Barrage Emp Arrow -> Sidewinder. If they're really low, I'll throw a Repelling Shot on top of it, but only if I think it'll kill because otherwise it'll murder my TP for a meager 500 potency gain and I won't be able to Emp Arrow as much for a bit. The potency on that burst, in order, is 2000 + 1000 + 500 + (3 X 1000) + 1250, with no Repelling Shot. That's 7750 without Repelling Shot, 8250 with it. But here's the thing: you'll notice that Straight Shot is literally the only GCD skill in the entire burst. Aside from that, it's delivered with only OGCDs, and from experience it takes around 3 seconds to go off, depending on your latency, which matches a ~2 GCD window. I don't know if you've ever played much serious Feast, but I can guarantee you that a 7750 potency burst delivered in 3 seconds through OGCDs is a lot better than a 9650 one if it takes 7 seconds to go off (realistically, as Praesul said, RDM burst is more the 5750 potency from the last melee step + finisher in two GCDs, meaning Bard burst would be both more potent and doesn't require going into melee range).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
I wanna talk about this for a bit. The way CC works in 4.0 makes it a lot harder to outright stop a burst combo, you're right. Most likely, any job can get its burst combo off in its entirety. But the thing is that it's not really the point. Getting a burst off is good for damage, but the only thing that counts is getting a kill, and that depends a lot on getting a burst off in time. I could have a 15,000 potency burst in 2 GCDs - if I hit a 10,000 HP target with my first 7,500 potency GCD, get stunned for 3 seconds, then hit my second 7,500 potency move, I did indeed get my full burst off - but I most likely missed the kill because their healer had time to react. Yes, a RDM can and will get their melee combo off through a stun - but getting stunned in-between Redoublement and their Ver-finisher will make any attempt at bursting basically worthless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
And this is where something else comes into play that can't really be explained with numbers: RDM burst is one of the most obvious, easily predictable in the game. With 4.0, most job features that allow them to burst are hidden from the buff/debuff bars, which effectively made most of them harder to predict. You can't see a SAM's kenki or sen gauge, nor whether a BLM's Foul is ready, or a DRG's Nastrond. If you want to predict Bard burst, you have to note when you get hit by Wanderer's Minuet, then calculate ~25-30 seconds from there. If it wasn't used on you, then good luck seeing it coming. For RDM? Seeing them rush in with Corps à corps and start their melee combo is ridiculously easy, and then you know to expect the burst more or less immediately, within 5-10 seconds. If you missed that, the animation for Zwerchhau is really hard to miss (that big Z can be seen from across the map). The best RDM will try to trick the enemy healer by starting off the melee combo on someone, then gap-closing to someone else for the last step and the Holy/Flare - but then, good healers will just look at whoever Monomachy is on. I do it and I'm a terrible healer outside of unranked/bronze matches, so I can't imagine Platinum+ healers ever getting fooled by this. So then, even as a Bard, if I see a RDM start their melee combo (and I will), I will keep track of them and Blunt Arrow them just after Redoublement. It's not hard to do. Then, the 2s silence delays the Holy/Flare by an entire GCD, meaning both burst skills will hit ~4-5s apart, and there goes any hope of a kill.
All in all, RDM is in a pretty terrible state right now as far as competitive Feast goes, if you compare them to Bard, another job with which they compete for a ranged slot. Their sustained damage is lesser. Their burst is lesser, more predictable and requires going into melee range. They are less mobile. They have cast times. Their CC consists of a melee range, expensive Heavy instead of a free, ranged Silence. Really, I can't think of a single reason to take a RDM over a BRD right now - and that's not the sign of a proper balance. RDM needs help. -
07-27-2017, 12:10 PMHyrist
That's not a call to buff Red Mage so much as heavily nerf Bard, however. Their current performance is far and beyond even Machinest, their direct peer.
This is why I drew the correlation to Black Mage, who sacrifices mobility under Red Mage for its power, not Bard, who has burst, mobility, dots, its range makes up for its squishyness with down real downsides. You don't/shouldent take anyone over Bard in this meta - and that's a more serious problem.
Taking something that has clearly been declared overpowered and using it as justification to buff another class isn't proper balance management. Again, I'm all for adjusting Red Mage upward, but saying it's terrible is incorrect. It's comparable to its direct counterpart, Black Mage in performance. It does not, however, have enough utility to offset its increased risk. And yes, I'm pushing utility, or probably suitability over damage bonuses because increasing Red Mage's damage performance will overcompensate.
Overall though, 4-man ranked has a lot more troubles of where Red Mage fits on the power rankings. -
07-27-2017, 12:18 PMVolene
Is Bard too strong? Compared to RDM, maybe, but MCH, SMN and BRD I find to be very well-balanced, all being able to apply significant pressure with high mobility (SMN less so, but it's a caster). BLM would also be up there, but it's affected a lot by LoS much like it was in 3.X, so it's likely few players will be successful with it. Really, RDM is the only one that's significantly behind the others - I just can't offer numbers to back it up as much as I can with Bard, seeing as it's my main. Range isn't an advantage as all ranged classes have the same. BRD mobility is the same as MCH, with SMN and RDM a bit behind with few short casts, and BLM being a weak point. On the other hand, BLM has the damage to compensate - RDM doesn't. You seem hell-bent on comparing RDM and BLM exclusively, but why? There's no distinction between magical and physical ranged DPS. In Feast, all ranged are the same and compete for the same spot. And honestly, RDM is the only one that's out of balance. Don't nerf Bard, buff Red Mage.
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07-27-2017, 01:25 PMHyrist
In short, RDM and BLM comparison is the same issue you just brought up about BLM - LoS comparison. Red Mage has a better Damage window frame than BLM in this regard, which is why the damage balancing tunes it lower.
My concern is people here are citing it as horrible (it's not, at worst, it's under-tuned). I find the kit to be sound, but lacks defensive/recovery utility to balance out the Melee Phase's 'risk', which requires a defensive Additional skill to compensate. I don't think its overall damage needs an increase which seems to be the biggest beef here.
Frankly I find it to be a boon of the class that it's just as if not more effective in its melee phase. It provides a strong chase utility against kiters, and tends to deter dives. People on the forum see it is as massive disadvantage. Perhaps that becomes more of an issue in ranked play than what I'm seeing as I'm new to ranked. I'm not seeing these issues in actual combat.
As far as the idea of 7 seconds not being a burst. Perhaps it's because my secondary is Paladin. I have no trouble locking a caster out of the bulk of its healing capability for seven seconds. (Stun into a silence.) And both the Damage window, and the Lockdown Windows for Paladin and Red mage time up fairly well (Provided the Red Mage takes full advantage of Manfication to bring up the Melee window a second time swiftly.)
Personally I swap out Recuperate and Safegard as needs keep on Bolt for Flee/Chase, use Monochrom defensively (because otherwise, yes, it's a clear indicator as to who to heal) and use the offset damage components to my advantage. Again, CaC and Displacement are OCD damage attacks as well as positional utilities, which I often see underused among other Red Mages. As well as small things like opening with Jolt two when they don't have the mana for both (I can be guilty of that too.) Small things that really do make a difference. I don't see 'the maths' play out the way people depict it here on the forums.
Jumping back a moment about this phrase:
This might actually be a good rotational improvement point for Red Mages. If you're going to us that as burst, and narrow the frame, it may be good to hold CaC until after the second hyphenated Melee hit, that'd bring the burst window up to 6500, if we're just counting the last two GCDs being used most efficiently. At that point the balancing question would be "How frequently can you get your burst back up?" I'm not certain of Bard's burst window but RDM can do two combos almost back to back whenever Manification is up. That's something a designer is going to have to balance against, especially if a Bard is waiting on several OGCS and a song to finish up before their burst comes back up.Quote:
I can guarantee you that a 7750 potency burst delivered in 3 seconds through OGCDs is a lot better than a 9650 one if it takes 7 seconds to go off (realistically, as Praesul said, RDM burst is more the 5750 potency from the last melee step + finisher in two GCDs, meaning Bard burst would be both more potent and doesn't require going into melee range).
Anyways, if I was going to go for improvements, ignoring tuning - just for the sake of improving the feel of Red mage - I'd drop Monochrome for Fleche and add some defensive improvements built into the melee combo. That's about as far into the kit I'd change.