Why wasn't Heavy Thrust merged into Impulse Drive?

Think about it for a second, and then sit there in awe when you realize how perfectly it makes sense to do this.

You already Heavy Thrust into the Impulse Drive combo, but the only reason you *ever* hit Heavy Thrust is to get that damage boost.

The button serves no other actual purpose, especially with the removal of the "noob trap" combo into the now removed Ring of Thorns.

The damage boost effect from Heavy Thrust should just be merged into Impulse Drive, a button that literally does nothing other than some average potency damage but is part of your buff/debuff application combo.

As literally any halfway decent goon can tell you, the job isn't in the greatest place right now. Sure, it's more than capable of holding itself up in endgame content, but why bring something that's just average when you could bring something that excels?

This change wouldn't fix the problems, but it would still improve things that little extra bit. Not to mention how much better it would feel to not have to push some random standalone GCD for an effect you need to perform your job correctly.

For some reason they removed the DoTs from most of the classes because it was 'busywork' you had to maintain even though it had a role in AoE DPS that required judgement, yet kept all of the 'pure busywork' damage boost skills like Heavy Thrust and Hot Shot that have no function other than being a button you must press every X seconds, or lose a chunk of your DPS.

The mind boggles...

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

For some reason they removed the DoTs from most of the classes because it was 'busywork' you had to maintain even though it had a role in AoE DPS that required judgement, yet kept all of the 'pure busywork' damage boost skills like Heavy Thrust and Hot Shot that have no function other than being a button you must press every X seconds, or lose a chunk of your DPS.

The mind boggles...

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Monk still has Twin Snakes buff as well. I feel like Monk would be boring if they took out Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes and Demolish.

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

For some reason they removed the DoTs from most of the classes because it was 'busywork' you had to maintain even though it had a role in AoE DPS that required judgement, yet kept all of the 'pure busywork' damage boost skills like Heavy Thrust and Hot Shot that have no function other than being a button you must press every X seconds, or lose a chunk of your DPS.

The mind boggles...

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To be fair, Hot Shot would require a ton more work than just "remove button, put effect on something else" or whatever. It's tied into just about every single MCH job quest, they'd have to completely rework the entire questline from the ground up. Still isn't a button that should exist anymore though.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Monk still has Twin Snakes buff as well. I feel like Monk would be boring if they took out Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes and Demolish.

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Twin Snakes isn't a random button, it's part of their buff/debuff combo. MNK also has a completely different button setup/design, so isn't really directly comparable.

I wonder about this every day, heavy trust is not fun or engaging, nor does it add anything to the gameplay of the class, it is just a silly skill that adds a silly buff.

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

To be fair, Hot Shot would require a ton more work than just "remove button, put effect on something else" or whatever. It's tied into just about every single MCH job quest, they'd have to completely rework the entire questline from the ground up. Still isn't a button that should exist anymore though.

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Turn it into the PVP version of Hot Shot. If you're below 50 heat, it generates 25 heat, turns into Cooldown above 50 heat. It now has a legit use, and doesn't break the MCH questline.

Heavy Thrust... really should go, it's just inane now, even more so since it doesn't even chain into Ring of Thorns anymore.

Honestly i believe the way PvP skills works is the way to go after Stormblood. I've played MCH and DRG in PvP a lot and it just feels good. Bard is a total mess in PvP tho.

The whole point of Heavy Thrust is to give you something necessary to do that's outside of your normal combos. If the damage boost effect was moved into Impulse Drive, you wouldn't even need to pay attention to the buff - it'd just always be up, simply by doing what you'd normally be doing anyway. Heavy Thrust is separate from your DPS combo specifically so that you have to pay attention to your buff, and work a Heavy Thrust into your rotation when that buff starts to run low.

It's a way to add complexity to the job. A cheap way to add complexity, possibly, but complexity was its intention. It's another way to differentiate the good DRGs (who keep their dots and buffs up full time) from the mediocre ones (who let the buffs slip from time to time).

The same used to be true of Hot Shot, before it got it's 4.0 makeover.

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

Twin Snakes isn't a random button, it's part of their buff/debuff combo. MNK also has a completely different button setup/design, so isn't really directly comparable.

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It's true that it has a different design with the stances, but I did play Lancer up to 35 for B4B and I kind of setup the buttons very similarly based. Like for Monk I have Bootshine - True Strike - Snap Punch - Dragon Kick - Twin Snakes - Demolish. Heavy Thrust felt similar to Maim (although they switched it so Storm's Eye is a self-buff now) and Twin Snakes to be honest? The only difference is that Heavy Thrust doesn't chain off True Thrust or anything like Warrior does with Heavy Swing or Monk does with Dragon Kick.

I personally dislike these random abilities that don't seem to serve a purpose beyond 'hit this button every 15 seconds for a dps buff because... reasons?'.. Heavy Thrust, Steady Shot for Bard and similar abilities. They don't add complexity, its not hard to push a button every 15-20 seconds.

I would have loved it if the combat revamp would have actually gotten rid of some of these abilities for more interesting spells in their place. They aren't fun to use, give us something fun and just bake these abilities into our normal rotations.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The whole point of Heavy Thrust is to give you something necessary to do that's outside of your normal combos. If the damage boost effect was moved into Impulse Drive, you wouldn't even need to pay attention to the buff - it'd just always be up, simply by doing what you'd normally be doing anyway. Heavy Thrust is separate from your DPS combo specifically so that you have to pay attention to your buff, and work a Heavy Thrust into your rotation when that buff starts to run low.

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Everyone uses it as part of the combo, you don't monitor the buff You use it prior to impulse drive when you are running your two combos and it is always up. Really does not add nothing but an extra button to the DRG "utility" combo.

Does not bother me, but I can see why they kept it. I don't think other melees have a buff or debuff on their first combo skill (I could be wrong). That leaves out Impulse Drive and of course Disembowel and Chaos already have their effects. Pushing it to the DPS combo, to like Vorpal would be bad for the class.

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Originally Posted by Niraves

They don't add complexity, its not hard to push a button every 15-20 seconds.

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Don't confuse something that's second nature to you to mean that it doesn't add complexity. If it were really that easy, you wouldn't see so many terrible DRGs that rarely have the buff up. It's just one more example of the difference in world view between the good players and the bad. "That DRG must be lazy." "That DRG just doesn't care." "That DRG is looking for a carry." That's not it at all - that DRG WANTS to be good, but literally has trouble doing something that seems to you should be as easy as walking and chewing gum at the same time.

It's very much like the kind of view that makes me shake my head whenever someone says, "Man, this Savage Raid / Ex Trial is so easy ANYONE can do it." They seriously have no idea just how terrible the bulk of players in this game are. For ANY Savage Raid or Ex Trial, and I do mean ANY, you're going to have more folks that have trouble clearing it than are capable of clearing it. Folks with this world view simply don't understand how anyone could be so bad - and so they accuse them of being lazy, instead.

It's fine to think that mechanics like this are annoying or boring. It's fine to consider them to be an irritating chore that you need to perform to keep your DPS up to snuff. Just keep in mind that there are folks out there who are PROUD of the fact that they can manage to press this button every 15-20 seconds while still doing other DRG things - and a whole lot more of them than you might think. Quite likely a majority of DRGs, in fact, given how few people seem capable of clearing endgame content. For these folks Heavy Thrust helps make the job a lot more exciting.

Adding the damage boost to Impulse Drive would be pretty much equivalent to giving a DRG a Job Trait that increases damage by 15%. SE wants to make DRGs do SOMETHING to earn that 15%, even if it's something as simple as keeping an eye on the buff and mashing a single button.

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

For some reason they removed the DoTs from most of the classes because it was 'busywork' you had to maintain even though it had a role in AoE DPS that required judgement, yet kept all of the 'pure busywork' damage boost skills like Heavy Thrust and Hot Shot that have no function other than being a button you must press every X seconds, or lose a chunk of your DPS.

The mind boggles...

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They need something to remove in 5.0!

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It's a way to add complexity to the job.

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Complexity for the sake of complexity is never a good thing. Game design 101.

Heavy thrust is a waste of a GCD and a hotbar slot. I can see why they kept it but it just seems to me like they really half-measured on the whole "cutting down on button bloat," thing.
IIRC, no other melee needs to reapply their damage buff outside of their combos, only Dragoon has to put the extra effort in. I hated HT in 2.x, hated it in 3.x, would hate it in 4.x if I didn't quit the class.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The whole point of Heavy Thrust is to give you something necessary to do that's outside of your normal combos. If the damage boost effect was moved into Impulse Drive, you wouldn't even need to pay attention to the buff - it'd just always be up, simply by doing what you'd normally be doing anyway. Heavy Thrust is separate from your DPS combo specifically so that you have to pay attention to your buff, and work a Heavy Thrust into your rotation when that buff starts to run low.

It's a way to add complexity to the job. A cheap way to add complexity, possibly, but complexity was its intention. It's another way to differentiate the good DRGs (who keep their dots and buffs up full time) from the mediocre ones (who let the buffs slip from time to time).

The same used to be true of Hot Shot, before it got it's 4.0 makeover.

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Everything you say here is really good case for it simply being axed, or rolled into another skill like Shadow Fang/Dancing Edge.

I wonder how many players could actually discern the difference between complexity for its own sake and complexity for the sake of depth (complexity for the sake of complexity gets thrown around an awful lot).

That being said, I do think Heavy Thrust needed combining with something else, but not because it's an element of complexity for complexity's sake (I don't think it is in the first place) but because it's purpose in the Dragoon rotation has been supplanted...really since HW launched.

Originally it was meant as the "thing you needed to keep going" as part of performing well as a Lancer/Dragoon. This function within the rotation exists with the Blood of the Dragon and the Dragon Eyes mechanic now. As a separate skill with a buff to keep running, it's obsolete, particularly compared to the overall more involved mechanics of BotD.

It also never served the kind of purpose/place in the rotation that Straight Shot for Bards does - it does provide the increased buff, but it also provides a proc-based function (the guaranteed crit) that would impact the Bard rotation, namely in that you suddenly had an "important ability" and had to figure out quickly if using it immediately was the best option or if there were more pressing concerns/things that had to be dealt with first. Essentially it already served the kind of dual purpose that makes it more than just a buff maintenance ability you press once every 15/30 seconds (which continues with SB's iteration and Refulgent Arrow sharing the proc, there's now an additional layer of consideration to be applied, so its even more entrenched in its dual purpose).

So either Heavy Thrust really should do something additional that adds an element of moment to moment consideration, or be baked into another existing ability...and given everything Dragoon already tracks, I'd say baking it in would serve the job better.

The maintenance buffs (heavy thrust, hot shot, and twin snakes) need to go. They're not interesting or fun. Then after that, let's dump the positionals while we're at it.

As soon as we get rid of those two things, my only real complaints about the game's combat system would be gone.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

The maintenance buffs (heavy thrust, hot shot, and twin snakes) need to go. They're not interesting or fun. Then after that, let's dump the positionals while we're at it.

As soon as we get rid of those two things, my only real complaints about the game's combat system would be gone.

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Other than removing a personal annoyance for yourself, what would be the positive gain for the game itself found in removing positionals?

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Originally Posted by Berethos

Other than removing a personal annoyance for yourself, what would be the positive gain for the game itself found in removing positionals?

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He'd be able to just roll his face across the keyboard like 90% of dps do instead of using any effort!

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

For some reason they removed the DoTs from most of the classes because it was 'busywork' you had to maintain even though it had a role in AoE DPS that required judgement, yet kept all of the 'pure busywork' damage boost skills like Heavy Thrust and Hot Shot that have no function other than being a button you must press every X seconds, or lose a chunk of your DPS.

The mind boggles...

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They'll probably be the next to go next expansion.

Honestly I hope many of the PVP combos become a reality in PVE.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Honestly I hope many of the PVP combos become a reality in PVE.

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Could work for the melee chain combos at the very least - not so much for Bard outside of putting our two dots together in a single button, and I'd think some of the casters might find it more cumbersome than useful for more than a few specific abilities.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

Could work for the melee chain combos at the very least - not so much for Bard outside of putting our two dots together in a single button, and I'd think some of the casters might find it more cumbersome than useful for more than a few specific abilities.

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It'd be awful on caster but some melee would be nice.

I'd be able to cut down on my DRK hotbar by a ton in my two combos could be reduced to two buttons

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Originally Posted by Berethos

Other than removing a personal annoyance for yourself, what would be the positive gain for the game itself found in removing positionals?

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The only thing positionals do is cause frustration when your damage output spikes downward because your target spins around, or when mechanics prevent you from doing them at all. There are no positives to the system, never has been and never will be.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It's a way to add complexity to the job. A cheap way to add complexity, possibly, but complexity was its intention. It's another way to differentiate the good DRGs (who keep their dots and buffs up full time) from the mediocre ones (who let the buffs slip from time to time).

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DRG has enough to focus on, and as the job currently stands, HT is a necessary evil we'd rather have condensed. SE seems to think that upping the duration a few seconds each major overhaul is addressing the problem. But now with Dragon Sight, charging LotD, and longer combo chains, it sullies things when we have to further interrupt our flow to get that HT buff in before we can pick up where we left off.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

Other than removing a personal annoyance for yourself, what would be the positive gain for the game itself found in removing positionals?

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

The only thing positionals do is cause frustration when your damage output spikes downward because your target spins around, or when mechanics prevent you from doing them at all. There are no positives to the system, never has been and never will be.

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Just like a real boxing match eh? The opponent bobs and weaves and you look for those openings to maximize damage or get diminished.

How fun would it be to watch a boxing match where no one dodges or blocks and just trades blows?

Seven Hells the whole game is based around dodging/weaving/getting correct positions/correct timings..

If none of that mattered I would fall asleep playing in global cooldown system.

If they are going to change/get rid of positionals, at least add a toggle to swap between different effects for skills. A choice of 2 or 3 situationals.

ESO calls their's morphs, but they still retain some intangibles with a stamina play on Dark Souls.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

what would be the positive gain for the game itself found in removing positionals?

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In movement heavy fights when moving in to position is too dangerous or not an option, melee dps are punished with lost potency through no fault of their own.

Double circle stack phases or knock back phases in D2 savage or maniacal probe phases in the same fight come to mind immediately. Same during D1 savage when you have to position to dodge clamp when the ground is frozen. This removes the dps loss that only melee dps players have to deal with.

Ihza's post above is hyperbole and shouldn't be taken seriously. Ditching positional attacks will make melee dps playing easier yes, but an arbitrary directional requirement on certain attacks isn't an indication of skill. A good melee dps that maintains high damage while executing mechanics and doing their rotations correctly will always stand out.

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

The only thing positionals do is cause frustration when your damage output spikes downward because your target spins around, or when mechanics prevent you from doing them at all. There are no positives to the system, never has been and never will be.

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Can't edit on mobile. Kattz here hit the nail on the head perfectly. It's needless frustration and can often penalize players through no fault of their own.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Can't edit on mobile. Kattz here hit the nail on the head perfectly. It's needless frustration and can often penalize players through no fault of their own.

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I mean, it might just be complexity for complexity's sake, but I feel the positionals on MNK add a bit of engagement. With how most of the content in this game is (especially pre-SB), I could literally just do 1-2-3 4-5-6 without paying attention if no positionals.

I do agree it can be annoying at times. That's where True North shines. Even so, I doubt SE would be removing positionals any time soon.

If they would stop making bosses that turn instantly, and constantly, positionals would be bearable, but as it is atm it really turns me off these classes. If they should be removed is one thing, but it is my number one annoyance with these classes for sure.

Now, general statement. If you are someone who instantly has a kneejerk response whenever you see a suggestion for a reduction in complexity, NOT ALL COMPLEXITY IS GOOD. If it leads to shitty gameplay it should (obviously!) go. First of all you need the correct amount of total complexity for class balance. And that doesn't necessarily mean 'a lot'. More important than a minimum amount of complexity is a maximum amount of complexity. If something needs more complexity, then add it in a fun way. Don't cling to annoying mechanics because "mah complexity".

On positionals: I feel really bad for DPS when I've pulled 8 mobs and have to keep moving out of AoEs, also mobs that randomly turn and target people with attacks or decide to do that thing where they bunch up and then wander around you.

Fine on Tank and spank mobs that don't require dps checks I guess.

I can see the frustration.