{SPOILERS} So, how did you feel about...

As has been said a few times, most of the legati are designed to reflect the antagonist from their corresponding FF game (idk about Regula ultimately because I stopped playing for a good while between 3.4 and 4.0)

So how did you feel about the connections between Xenos and Vayne? I thought the connection through a scientist's experiments was a nice nod. But his referring to Gods in his final monologue seemed a little forced as it had never really come up before.

Thoughts?

Regula turned out to be an honorable antagonist like General Leo instead of someone like Kefka. Zenos and Vayne are both the sons of the emperors who became governor/viceroy of a conquered nation

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Originally Posted by Yuella

Regula turned out to be an honorable antagonist like General Leo instead of someone like Kefka. Zenos and Vayne are both the sons of the emperors who became governor/viceroy of a conquered nation

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Just got Zurvan done and this was also my impression of Regula = General Leo. A great choice, IMO.

My PS2 died before I could finish XII, so I don't know a thing about it.

Honestly, I think Zenos is closer to Kefka than to Vayne.

Both Zenos and Kefka are magitek enhanced, and while we don't know for sure if Zenos was like this prior to becoming Resonant, we do know that his prodigious combat ability basically led him to a state of perpetual ennui in which he would slaughter thousands just for the brief spark of enjoyment he would get when facing someone who didn't die instantly. So, still "touched" but less in a "flicking a switch" way than Kefka was.

Both were responsible for the destruction of Doma. Both used poison as well. Kefka used physical poison, and while the armies of the empire and Zenos himself defeated the Doman insurgency, it was his poison, in the form of Yotsuyu and her abject hatred for her people, that were ultimately driving them extinct. As Yugiri noted at Fluminis, the villagers you were trying to save were going to die of old age before they were returned to their villages. This was by Yotsuyu's design. She was cultural poison.

Both Zenos and Kefka had a fascination with destruction. Zenos called it "violence" but the end result was the same. Both also assumed the power of gods. Kefka with the Warring Triad, and Zenos with Shinryu.

Both also had their own cute young "slave." Kefka used the more direct and brutal version in the Slave Crown on Terra, while Zenos took Fordola's desire to prove herself on behalf of her people and twisted it until she basically enslaved herself to his will.

Finally, both of them ultimately accepted that if they were to truly serve their own ultimate ideal (for Kefka, destruction - for Zenos, violence) then they must ultimately die. While it can't be said for certain one way or another that Kefka killed himself, he certainly did sit there passively and accept his death when his time came, which in itself is a kind of suicide. And we all know what happened to Zenos.

Vayne was ruthless but he actually cared about Archades. Zenos only cared about getting a good fight and didn't care for Garlemald at all. The only similarities to Vayne are that Zenos, too, had a mad scientist working in the background. I was actually hoping - and still am - that the XII references would be heavier and lead us to getting someone similar to Larsa. A man - or woman - that is loyal to Garlemald and her people but is not opposed to the idea of peace and seeks to reach out in an attempt to secure it. Whilst at the same time not allowing the Eorzean Alliance or Warrior of Light to get away with casually slaughtering Garleans unless strictly necessary.

Vayne and Zenos do have a number of similarities.

-Son of the current Emperor
-Chosen to rule a conquered territory
-Worked with a scientist deemed mad
-Obtained an artificial copy of a normally divine gift
-Took on the form of a dragon for the final battle

Their personalities couldn't be more different, ruthlessness aside, but Zenos definitely fits the bill.

Still not sure when we slaughtered Garleans not in self-defense or without need. We let anyone who stands down live... and more often than not they attack us without mercy. So...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Still not sure when we slaughtered Garleans not in self-defense or without need. We let anyone who stands down live... and more often than not they attack us without mercy. So...

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Well, there's the utter lack of an attempt at diplomacy. The Warrior of Light and Scions attempted to broker peace between the Ishgardians and Dravanians. They failed, multiple times - but persisted regardless. Even after meeting reasonable Garleans such as Regula they failed to even acknowledge the possibility of peace - and if they continue to avoid trying to secure it then they're simply massive hypocrites. They're now supporting destablising territory that isn't theirs to reclaim - causing fear and panic. I hope the Scions and their allies pay dearly in blood for any Garleans who lose their children, lovers or friends in rebellions incited in otherwise peaceful territory. We already know that not every part of the Empire is a cesspit - some territories are virtually unchanged by Garlean rule. We've heard it but we'll likely see it for ourselves in due time.

Yet the longer the Warrior of Light and his allies fail to attempt diplomacy, the more needless bloodshed there will be. I suspect that you'll counter with 'but the Garleans aren't interested' but even if that turns out to be true (which is unlikely, given the mixed opinions on things like the Meteor Project) it doesn't change the simple fact that the Warrior of Light and his allies refused to take 'no' for an answer when it came to peace between the Dravanians and the Ishgardians.

It's not like there isn't a mutual goal in regards to putting an end to the Primal/Eikon threat once and for all, either. Here's hoping we'll see the Garlean Consulate in Kugane used to discuss potential diplomacy with someone along the lines of Regula, Reeve, Larsa or Drace. Ideally someone who will just as readily call out the Eorzeans for their dubious elements just as quickly as calling out Garlemald's own.

Zenos also has some things in common with Exdeath. They're huge fighters who love combat, seek conquest and use dangerous powers to do it; Exdeath via the void and Zenos using the Pseudo Echo. And they have giant minions who they give second chances but then get rid of them (Gilgamesh and Grynwaht).

Granted there's a lot of differences too. Zenos is nowhere near as hammy as Exdeath. Also, Exdeath starts as a conqueror who turns into a nihilistic omnicidal manic, whereas Zenos starts out feeling nihilistic, but becomes ... happier for lack of better term, throughout the story.

I guess one could say that Zenos represents both FFV and FFXII.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Well, there's the utter lack of an attempt at diplomacy.

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It's not like there isn't a mutual goal in regards to putting an end to the Primal/Eikon threat once and for all, either. Here's hoping we'll see the Garlean Consulate in Kugane used to discuss potential diplomacy with someone along the lines of Regula, Reeve, Larsa or Drace. Ideally someone who will just as readily call out the Eorzeans for their dubious elements just as quickly as calling out Garlemald's own.

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It's impossible to engage in diplomatic relations with people actively trying to kill you - which, other than Regula (after he tried to kill us three times, no less), has always been the case. Self-defense is a perfectly valid reason to fight and kill, and I doubt many would consider preserving sovereignty or restoring liberty invalid reasons either.

The Doman shinobi encouraged rebellion. They did not, to our knowledge, engage in or encourage terrorist acts or force those who preferred Imperial rule to abandon it. We also have no evidence of Garlean civilians living in the few provincial territories we've seen, so to my knowledge the likelihood of Garlean civilians being killed in any such uprising is low. Military deaths, while equally tragic, are an occupational hazard.

We were able to broker peace between the Ishgardians and Dravanians precisely because there were Dravanians willing to engage in diplomacy. We have yet to meet such a Garlean (other than Regula who is now dead), and I wholeheartedly encourage brokering peace with them if at all possible. However, in the meantime I will not tell those suffering and dying at the Empire's hands "Sorry, we're waiting to engage in diplomacy with them."

We have the same goal, ending the issue of primals, but until the Empire is willing to reach out and talk to us instead of engaging in aggressive negotiations all the time we can't exactly make peace with them. Regula was a perfect opportunity for this, which is why I am so disappointed he had to go full General Leo and get himself killed. The Garlean Consulate may be used for this purpose - I'd like to think it's there for a reason beyond illustrating that Kugane is neutral territory and for delivering bath water to - but that remains to be seen (and I'd like to think everything has a purpose, but that's not always true, lol).

... and, other than wars of self-defense against the Empire, Eorzea's dubious elements are largely self-contained. The inverse does not hold true, which is the core of the problem.

The Ishgardians and Dravanians were trying to kill each other. At times they were also trying to kill the Warrior of Light and his allies. That did not stop them seeking peace, even when it seemed impossible. Thus, by not assuming the same to be possible with Garlemald and reaching out themselves they are hypocrites - especially when they complain that Garleans are killing them when they themselves are doing nothing to ease tensions. A war that waged for a thousand years was ended. Why wouldn't it be possible to broker peace with the Empire, then, given that the war with them has lasted for far lesser a time?

War is a two way street. It doesn't matter who starts it, necessarily - because at some point so many people have died on both sides that ending it becomes a necessity. Ending it in such a way as to avoid needless bloodshed - which is precisely what the goal of the Warrior of Light and his allies should be. Instead, it feels like selfish vengeance - especially if they decide to take the fight further into the Empire's territories and refuse to acknowledge the nuances. By that logic they should have wiped Ishgard off the map - but they excused Ishgard's sins and came to understand them. You'd think they'd be bright enough to look into the 'how' and 'why', combining it with Regula's heroism and thinking 'hold on a minute...' and acknowledging that if someone like Regula can rise through the ranks and be reasonable and influential then there's probably others like him who can be reasoned with.

Defectors don't count since they have no loyalty or care for their people or homeland.

We'll see how things play out with 4.1 but...the Eorzeans don't get to play the sympathy card if they continually refuse to even acknowledge the possibility of diplomacy and peace. After Ishgard and Zenos revealing himself to be working against Garlemald's interests then there's really no reason not to try and forge some sort of treaty and/or agreement.

A faction of the Dravanians (Nidhogg's brood) were trying to kill the Warrior of Light. The others encouraged peace or were apathetic to the conflict. The Ishgardians, while skeptical, did encourage seeking a peaceful solution.

We have yet to encounter a Garlean faction who prefers diplomacy to aggressive negotiations. There may be (probably are) reasonable individuals in the Empire who can be negotiated with, but we have not yet met one (who still lives). Until then, criticizing the protagonists for not engaging in diplomacy with the Empire is rather unfair.

We are also no longer at war with the Empire - for the time being, at least.

We also do not yet know if the Alliance and Scions intend to further pursue aggression against the Empire. My bet is on no. Until such a time as this happens, this is also unfair criticism.

"Selfish vengeance" should not be used when your main defense of Garlemald's blind aggression against nearly everyone they encounter is "they were pushed around before developing their magitek, so now they're getting revenge for it and improving their living conditions." If you would criticize the Alliance for hypocrisy, you would do well to avoid it yourself. We ended the fights with minimal casualties and even personally helped a Garlean soldier who had been wounded when Fordola fired on Specula Imperatoris. I don't know what more you want.

Side note: we do not have any proof that Zenos was actively working against Garlemald's interests - only that he did not care about them. It's entirely possible that he was playing into Garlemald's (Varis') plans without being aware of it. Power politics, man!

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Even after meeting reasonable Garleans such as Regula they failed to even acknowledge the possibility of peace - and if they continue to avoid trying to secure it then they're simply massive hypocrites.

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I gotta go with Cilia here. It all comes down to "start shit, get hit." The Garleans started this, in their "noble" crusade to "rid" the world of the Eikon threat. The road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions, and everything we've personally seen so far indicates that the Garleans have brought nothing but suffering. Not even stability and safety, as bandits and wildlife in both Gyr Abania and Yanxia are left to have their way with the locals, while the locals are afforded little in the way of protection by the Empire. You can bang on about "morality" and "rightness" and "hypocrisy" as much as you want, but all's fair in love and war. You only need one side to start a war, but you need all sides to end it. If one side lays down their arms while their enemy doesn't they invite death upon themselves. Even if doing so were considered "noble" or "right" it's worth nothing if your head ends up on a pike. Alive and a "hypocrite" standing over the corpse of your enemy (who was the aggressor!) is better than your enemy cutting you down while you sit there passively, convinced of your suicidal "morality" in not fighting back.

Or, to sum it up, "Hah hah, I may be dead but at least I'm not a hypocrite!"

I actually think Varis is Vayne, what with the kin-slaying and all, except 10 years down the line and without any meddling kids to disrupt his plans. Zenos is the Larsa, one that Varis tried but failed to protect (I don't think that Varis had much to do with the experimentation inflicted on Zenos, given that Varis was a relatively junior member of the Imperial Family until recently and Solus, being the arsehole who dropped a moon on us, seems like the sort of bloke who'd okay a great-grandchild being used as a lab-rat).

I thought diplomacy was tried by the Ul'dah merchants before the game? And it failed?

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Originally Posted by Grayve

I thought diplomacy was tried by the Ul'dah merchants before the game? And it failed?

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That it was, during 1.x. Lolorito tried to convince the Garleans not to drop Dalamud on Eorzea.

Despite some disagreement in the Empire (arguably for the wrong reasons), he failed.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

We are also no longer at war with the Empire - for the time being, at least.

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Unless you believe that the Garleans are going to take the loss of two of their provinces philosophically I very much doubt this to be true.

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Originally Posted by Braneric

Unless you believe that the Garleans are going to take the loss of two of their provinces philosophically I very much doubt this to be true.

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The Ala Mhigans and Domans have accomplished their objectives - reclamation and liberation of their homelands. As far as we are aware neither have designs to pursue further aggression against the Empire.

If the Empire wants to engage us in diplomacy, now is the time. If they go on the offense I do not want to hear further excuses for their lack of diplomatic outreach.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

If the Empire wants to engage us in diplomacy, now is the time. If they go on the offense I do not want to hear further excuses for their lack of diplomatic outreach.

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I was under the assumption that the Emperor allowed both provinces to fall so as to force his son Zenos into a corner where he could get himself killed. The loss of two dilapidated provinces is nothing compared to the ruin that would have been brought about by Zenos ascending the throne. Both Ala Mhigo and Doma were conquered long before the current Emperor came to power and it stands to reason that, unlike his grandfather, he himself could care less about trying to conquer all lands possible. If this were a game of civilization, Emperor Varis would be the player seeking a technological victory rather than a straight up military victory to ensure dominance. This was shown in his efforts on Azys Lla which focused on reclaiming Allagan tech rather than conquering more turf.

Whatever experiments or procedures produced a powerful warrior like Zenos would be more than enough to put down anything the Warriors of Light could throw at Emperor Varis if brought to bear out of necessity. The only thing we know about the current Emperor is his focus on stopping the Eikons, possible genetic experimentation, and a willingness to work with Ascian elements. None of those seem to mesh with a conqueror, but rather someone who wants to maintain a secured position.

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

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Ahh finally! Someone who wants to discuss the possibility of Garlean power politics being in play instead of making me go "blah blah blah freedom blah blah blah justice blah blah blah Garlemald, blah blah" all the time!

Er. I am still unconvinced that Zenos had some sort of experiments or procedures performed on him prior to 4.0. I believe that he was simply a highly trained, talented, and experienced fighter prior to gaining Resonance. Elidibus refers to him as an "irreplaceable test subject," but it is my hypothesis that Varis used Zenos to get Aulus' research and experiments carried out without publicly supporting it himself. Whether Zenos lived or died was immaterial - he would not have given his son the throne, even if he survived.

I had considered the possibility that Varis did this to get Zenos killed, but doubt he would do it for that alone. If he's going to get his son killed, why not benefit from it?

Current hypothesis is that Varis is working with Elidibus to try and secure Garlemald's safety in the restored, compressed world.

Quite a few people, myself included, have brought up the politics in Garlemald in these debates in the past. It's a fascinating subject and I'm very glad to see a fresh perspective on it. I fully expect the politics of Garlemald to play out in the background much like the politics of Archades did in the background of FFXII. Clearly it's all building up to something huge it's just a matter of what - but hopefully it'll end with peace between Garlemald and Eorzea without turning the former into a toothless faction for the sake of Eorzea becoming the new superpower. FFXII is such an incredible game because it subverted the awful 'rag tag band of rebels utterly thrash the big bad empire' trope. Words cannot despise how much I loathe that trope, so here's hoping it does not come into play in FFXIV...especially with how much of a love letter the game is to Ivalice based games and political moves that are far from black or white.

If the intention is for people not to sympathise with Zenos then him simply being a rotten apple makes more sense than him going crazy due to experimentation. I also believe it is heavily implied that Aulus was only granted room to experiment at Zenos' behest, suggesting that any enhancements that Zenos underwent came from his own decisions rather than his father's own. Hopefully 4.1 will answer some of the lingering questions about him...though it may be that we don't see much of Varis for a while yet. It's a shame his cutscene wasn't voiced, for that matter. I can't wait to hear him speak once again!

Garlean diplomacy is severely hamstrung by the fact that virtually every Garlean we've encountered (with the exception of certain traitors, like Cid and Lucia) has a raging superiority complex. You don't parley with your lessers; you command them. If they do not obey, you discipline them. For diplomacy between uneven sides to be possible, the side in the top position needs to place some value on the well being of the people in the lesser position (there is NO evidence that they do in this case), or at least believe that they pose a creditable threat to their own people (it's pretty clear they don't believe this either). Their vast army of conscripts ensures that the only folks dying on either side are savages, and the Garleans in charge couldn't care less how many savages die.

Once actual Garlean citizens are in actual danger (and no, the Garlean military in charge of the conscripts don't count; they are military, and risk of death is part of the job), only then might they change their tune - and we're a long, long way from that point.

Even Regula regularly referred to us as savages, and I'm pretty sure our brief "alliance" was little more than him recognizing that having folks immune to Tempering would be really helpful in tackling Zurvan. I have no faith that he would have been any more interested in diplomacy had he survived. It was little more than an Enemy Mine scenario, a temporary alliance against a mutual foe.

As long as Garlean society continues to nurture this superiority complex and isn't on the actual verge of annihilation, I find it unlikely that any Garlean will extend an olive branch. Even if we don't see Eorzeans actively attempting diplomacy, that doesn't mean that it hasn't happened in the past. Perhaps they gave up trying after the twentieth or so diplomat returned in a box. Even the Garleans whose JOB is supposedly diplomacy seem to suffer from this problem; the bathwater quest makes it pretty obvious that the Garleans stationed in Kugane, too, believe themselves to be the betters of the others in the city.

Admittedly, traitors or not, Cid and Lucia DO imply that it's possible for Garleans to not buy into the superiority thing, so a Larsa scenario isn't completely off the table. Larsa's going to have quite a bit of work ahead of him, however. He'll pretty much have to overturn the entire power structure of the Garlean Empire before he'll be able to make any headway at all.