SMN : is critical hit not longer a priority?

I was looking at the tome gear and savage gear and they both seem to have tons of DH SS and Det. Take the tome wep and savage wep none got crit hit.

At the moment I was prioritizing CH DH SS. But looking at the new stuff it's making me wonder what to go for first.

Am I missing something?

I'll still go for Crit and DH 1st.

But i'll get any piece of gear possible and change it when needed. It's not like in 3.0 where i couldn't put materia as i wanted, now i can easily put +40/80 stat /piece each time i get it. I get Materia faster than i get piece of gear

I can copy an answer I gave in another (german) thread referring the current status of the reddit theorycrafter:

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Originally Posted by Neela

reddit status of statweights

tl;dr: direct hit > crit > det > ss

(bei dds die keine crit procs in ihrer rota haben wie Brd oder Mnk). dh & det multiplyer sind nach wie vor additiv während crit noch immer multiplativ ist -> je mehr dh/det desto weniger der dmg schub je höher der wert. crit je höher der wert desto höher der dmg schub. laut den craftern auf reddit lohnt crit > dh erst ab einem wert, den man derzeit noch gar nicht erreichen kann (2800-3500+) ---> daher gilt derzeit wohl wie oben als einleitung: dh > crit > det > ss

Schneller Gruß
Yuna ^^

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so it seems that dh is the most effective stat until you are able to reach a crit value over 2800+...

short explanation of the german copy: dh and det are additiv while crit is still multiplativ - so dh & det dmg increase will shrink as higher as your stats go while crit still raises dmg increase by getting higher and higher....

For myself im still going for crit > dh ( > det/ss) - it just won't make a big difference in this current state but I wonder if full savage/mod tomb gear is enough to claim the breaking point where crit definitely goes over dh.... hopefully ^^

So it is rip for SS for Smns?

Cheers!

hmm not sure about that but if you take 2 points in consideration it might appear a bit less important than before:

1) we have less dots so ss lost dmg increase at all on our side
2) ruin 3 is no more our only "burst" skill, with the loss of potency it's not that important if you throw out 5 or 6 ruins while trance. DH & Det in comparison effect every skill and your Egi dmg so well yeah - ss seems a bit off atm.

I think ss is still important for Blm though... but not that important for us smn atm - but thats just my opinion about ss so far. ^^

Pinching pennies. Choose whatever stat you want . it won't make a difference in gameplay

This is the newest stat testing thread I've been able to find: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tats_compared/

Seems direct hit > det for SMN?

I agree with that numbers, i also found them on another thread. But what I disagree is the conclusion.

The numbers clearly say that Crit > DH but everyone still says that DH > Crit (even the people who wrote the numbers)

In term of pure Rate/Bonus damages, if we have 1900 crit and 0 DH, we are supposed to get more damages than having 1900 DH and 0 crit. The same goes for a more realistic numbers like 1900/1500 (my current number in ilvl 314) or 1500/1900 for Crit/DH. What changes the conclusion should be the probability to get a DH (or Crit) proc on a low spell or a high spell.
With DH, you have more rate, but only +25% damages on each proc.
With Crit, you have a lower rate, but each proc deals mor damages (for exemple +54% with a crit value around 1905)

If you test this numbers on 100 spells with the same potency, you'll figure that with same value of crit and DH, the crit gives more damages.
But in a real rotation we don't have the same potency for each spell/skill. We have different potency for several skills. This is what does changes the value of the stats. But i have not seen yet people talking about that.

Go for direct hit. The rest I don't know, but honestly, I would avoid SS. Probably better off going with DET or Crit.

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Originally Posted by Koyuki38

The numbers clearly say that Crit > DH but everyone still says that DH > Crit (even the people who wrote the numbers)


If you test this numbers on 100 spells with the same potency, you'll figure that with same value of crit and DH, the crit gives more damages.

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this is what I actually was telling in the first post. crit numbers are higher than dh numbers but you need less dh for 1% increase until you reach a certain point where crit dmg overcome dh in its dmg boost although it still need more statpoints for +1% than dh.

saying that reddit have calculated that breakevenpoint and said we can't reach that crit number now (pre-savage) - dunno if 320 over melt / 340 / savage gear is enough to do so.

until than it's most probably DH > Crit > DET >>>> SS for us atm... ^^

The break point is already reached for a while. They are completely wrong (which seems odd to me) or they are simply not telling us everything (i prefer bet on that)

That's why I do not understand all the people saying that DH > Crit

Edit : Because the break point is not 2800 at all

I'm honestly think moving to DH DET CRIT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koyuki38

The break point is already reached for a while. They are completely wrong (which seems odd to me) or they are simply not telling us everything (i prefer bet on that)

That's why I do not understand all the people saying that DH > Crit

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they assumed a value from around 3k crit is that reachable with the current gear? my smn is around ilvl 317 and just hit 1900 crit with VI melts... so I doubt the breakpoint is reachable that easy atm...

The break point arount 3k is out of nowhere. I would like explanation how they got this number.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koyuki38

The break point is already reached for a while. They are completely wrong (which seems odd to me) or they are simply not telling us everything (i prefer bet on that)

That's why I do not understand all the people saying that DH > Crit

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From what we know, Crit does not outdamage DH until you get close from 3000 Crit, and we can't get nowhere near those numbers.

Also, it's only natural to think DH should be slightly better than Crit. No class takes any advantage of DH proc wise, classes like BRD, MNK or SCH take a lot of advantage from Crits, if crit was better than DH without taking those procs into account, think for a moment how much Crit would trump DH.

How do you get that 3000 Crit break point ?

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Originally Posted by Koyuki38

The break point arount 3k is out of nower. I would like explanation of they got this number.

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Crit has a baseline 5% chance to do 40% more damage, or roughly a 2% damage contribution.

1900 crit is a 19.2% chance to do 54.2% more damage, or 10.41% damage. Subtract the base amount for a 8.41% dps increase.
1900 DH is 39.3% chance to do 25% more damage, or 9.83% damage.

2900 crit is a 28.4% chance to do 63.4% more damage, or 18% more damage. Subtract the base to get 16%.
2900 DH is 64.9% chance to do 25% more damage, or 16.23% damage.

3000 crit is 29.3% chance to do 64.3% more damage, or 18.84% more damage. Subtract the base and you have 16.84%.
3000 DH is 67.4% chance to do 25% more damage, or 16.85% damage.

So point for point, at 1900 values DH is about 16.88% better than crit. At just above 3000, you'll see an inflection point when crit overtakes DH. Now, if you have things like a bard in the party (2% crit all the time), a dragoon (15% with 1/6th uptime), a scholar (15% with 1/8th uptime), or are a job with bonus crit chance (monk*, bard, warrior) or bonus crit mechanics (monk chakras, bard songs) then crit gets bonuses. Assuming you ran with all 3 of them, you'd have ~6.38% crit chance bonus on average. This means...

1900 crit gets you 25.58% crit chance to do 54.2% more damage, or 13.86% damage. Subtract the base of (now-higher) 11.38% chance for 40% more damage, 4.55%, and you have 9.31%. This is compared to DH's contribution of 9.83%, so even with a party stacking crit chance for you**, crit is still worse at this level.

*Monk's guaranteed crit on Bootshine actually makes crit worse, but the benefits from internal release being 30% with 1/4 uptime outweighs it positively, although barely.
**Spear is still much worse than Balance. 10% crit chance for 20 seconds is roughly 4% for 20s, compared to post-nerf Balance at 10% for 30. No AST in their right mind will be fishing for Spear procs, even after 4.05.

edit - minor typos, i b slepy

I've been trying to keep Crit and DH as close in value as I can up to this point since the number crunchers are still crunching. I've noticed the higher level gear is heavier on DH so it has taken the lead as I start equipping 320 level gear. To keep Crit in the ballpark I've been melding Savage Aim VI materia where I can. From the little bit I've read on some of the stat weight sites the consensus seems to be coalescing around DH being the better stat until you get to higher gear levels than are currently available. Crit will be second until you get to somewhere between 2300-2800 of Crit. Even with DH being better from what I can see they aren't that far apart that it would kill the average player if they were Crit > DH. SpS on the other hand appears to be a pretty far away dead last.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

edit - minor typos, i b slepy

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thx for your explanation even though you are tired ;p
haven't found the example myself in that reddit text desert x'D

but yeah this should be all what is known until yet ^^

After reading the post i must ask a certain question that comes to my mind: At some point of the game (can't remember when) they changed Spell Speed to increase the damage of the Dots and the Pets alike. At first when i heard of DH i thought it would be used alongside Crit and SS. Did the SS effect change upon the Dots and Egi at some point afterwards? Because i cant remember it right now.

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Originally Posted by Zhamkyong

After reading the post i must ask a certain question that comes to my mind: At some point of the game (can't remember when) they changed Spell Speed to increase the damage of the Dots and the Pets alike. At first when i heard of DH i thought it would be used alongside Crit and SS. Did the SS effect change upon the Dots and Egi at some point afterwards? Because i cant remember it right now.

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The only change to SS, aside from simple scaling, was that it now also boosts autoattack damage by the same rate it boosts DoT damage. It still has no effect on oGCD skills like Fester or Painflare, though, so do keep that in mind when valuing SS.

ss increased dot dmg not dot ticks - taking off the focus from dot dmg in generell by reducing dot skills in your toolkit facing a more burst like rotation ss lost effectiveness without being touched by itselfs mechanic. ^^

Also the ruin3 pot nerf isn't worth to go full ss for "the xtra ruin" in trance like it was the way to go : /

So right now the damage gain from SS in the Dot/Egi auto-attack potency is less from SS than DET? I am kinda confused right now S_S I have to start to level Summoner again soon enough, so i will look about the stat while i do it.

I don't think we need any detailed testing results to know spell speed is bad for SMN.

1. SMN has MP issues. Casting faster deplete MP pool faster.
2. SS doesn't affect ogcd. Your 15s rotation window of (ruin3, ruin2, fester)x3 is pretty much limited by cooldown of fester. And it makes it harder if you want to weave two OGCDs without clipping.
3. During Bahamut phase, you are forced to cast spells every 1.5s which makes SS useless.
4. A huge chunk of damage comes from burst spells like deathflare and akh morn which SS doesn't affect.

Even if stats shows crit to be better than DH, I would probably still prioritize DH. DH is just more reliable. You want to pass DPS checks consistently. You don't want to get screwed over by RNG because you never ever get crits on deathflare and akh morn. Well unless you like stat padding and show off your highest dps to the world through good crit RNG.

Weights are not in yet, but according to spreadsheets :
167 points in crit is a 0.68% DPS increase
167 points in dh is a 1.05% DPS increase
167 points in det is a 1.00% DPS increase
167 points in ss is a 1.00% increase on DOT damage (25% of your DPS) and a 0.01 GCD reduction

Yayamaru explained very well why stat weights exist though : they have to take job mechanics into account and his explanation on why SS isn't that much effective on SMN anymore is on point. Part of DOTs in DPS plummeted, a lot of your burst comes from non casting skills, SMN has MP management so extra DPS on casting faster at the cost of burning mana faster is not a valid option (especially in progress where you might be expected to raise OR feed mana to healers in an emergency).