Bane/Sustain in 4.1

Having played my fair share of summoner so far, I can honestly say that the Bane nerf I feel is huge. Not to summoner but to its usefulness as a skill. Painflare and fester are more useful, dps wise than Bane will ever be.

IMO i think that main should be brought back to its original 1 target + 2, (without using an aetherflow) and sustain brought back by using 1 aetherflow, and either healing a percentage overtime, (for pets) or being a buff or heal for Team Mates. for example (use use Sustain on a Tank, each time they take damage for the next X seconds, it is reduced by Y percentage. If used on a pet, it will heal X% of its life every Y seconds.

For Healers it could be, Each dps dealt by the anointed healer, will be released after 3 seconds in an aoe heal, centered on the healer.

etc, etc.

No, just bring back the NORMAL sustain. It's a pain in the ass to keep pets alive and having to position them again and again which takes time from Sch/Smn. Don't try to change what wasn't broken.

Dude no one would use sustain if it used up an aetherflow. It's just not worth it.

Bring back Sustain as it already existed.

Give Bane damage fall off using the same %'s as every other damage fall off ability in the game.

We don't need heals for group that the healer job... we need heals for our pets

Remove Physick from Summoner, swap it with Sustain.

They didn't remove Sustain for balance, they removed it because they thought nobody used it. Screw using an AF charge, bring it back exactly how it was.

I agree. Sustain was incredibly useful in keeping a pet alive, and as I level up my healer, Ive actually been trying to actively toss heals/regens at SMN's pets because I know how frustrating it has become.
Please bring back Sustain as it was in 3.X.

I'm more confused now why the devs really don't want to bring it back.

What data are they looking at that made them see it as ability bloat verses something super situational? Are there really that many players on ACN/SMN/SCH that never used it?

I assumed they removed it because SMN was so strong solo compared to a lot of other jobs. But the current situation is no good. Just change Physick to Sustain at a certain level or something via traits if need be. Very interested to see what tomorrow brings regarding Bane as it feels very unsatisfying now.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

I assumed they removed it because SMN was so strong solo compared to a lot of other jobs. But the current situation is no good. Just change Physick to Sustain at a certain level or something via traits if need be. Very interested to see what tomorrow brings regarding Bane as it feels very unsatisfying now.

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That doesn't really make sense though. SMN was better at solo compared to other DPS jobs, but they still not as good at it as a healer or tank. Healers reach the highest floors solo in PotD. Healers, tanks and more rarely a SMN would make those solo Ex primal videos. Also RDM is probably at least as good at solo as the SMN was.

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Originally Posted by aesteval

Bring back Sustain as it already existed.

Give Bane damage fall off using the same %'s as every other damage fall off ability in the game.

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It actually has less damage fall off than Hissatsu:Guren, amusingly. I can't think of a skill that drops harder.

Also, the Bane nerf wasn't targeted at SMN but SCH. Apparently SE didn't like they were spending their time AFK spamming Blizz2, so there ya go.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It actually has less damage fall off than Hissatsu:Guren, amusingly. I can't think of a skill that drops harder.

Also, the Bane nerf wasn't targeted at SMN but SCH. Apparently SE didn't like they were spending their time AFK spamming Blizz2, so there ya go.

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Bane looses 80% of its damage. How is this less than the 50% loss of Hissatsu:Guren?

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

Remove Physick from Summoner, swap it with Sustain.

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"Sustain Mastery" trait.
Unlock level 30 when Summoner soul crystal is received. Changes Physic to Sustain on Summoner only. When level synced, Physic stays reverted to Sustain as long as Summoner is the job being played.

People won't be kicked from savage parties cause of sustain or bane...
That being said I want to see actual summoner aoe numbers. Cause usually I did x2 damage compared to BLM on aoe pulls in 3.0 dungeons. Now I see numbers pretty on par with BLM and bigger than any other job. So yeah aoe was nerfed, but it's not a disaster most people think it is. We still have our burst that is an advantage over BLMs aoe, and bahamut+aetherflow stacks just melt pulls away. So I'm interested what the hell exactly are you as summoners want from your aoe DPS? Being better than BLMs again?
With how poor 4.0 SMN designed as a job AOE should be one of our least problems...
Same with sustain. I don't care much for it cause I rarely used it anywhere and just burst my way through solo content. But deleting it like that didn't really make much sense so I, like most summoners, am for returning of sustain in whatever form. But it should not be your main complain just like bane... People complained about it since day0 and look where it got us? lol

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

Remove Physick from Summoner, swap it with Sustain.

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Yeah just make it like how Ruin turns to Broil if you put it on your hotbar

Sustain was a safety net. The complaints started when everyone realized Titan Egi was suddenly useless as he can't actually eat damage anymore with the heals aiding him, just like a normal tank. Egi's are usually caught in regular AoE heals, so Sustain was super situational in group environments, but since this removes the power to care of a pet from the pet master, it can be terribly frustrating. You really didn't need Sustain that often, but you still wanted it.

Since death of the pet is the second worse DPS loss to a death of the player, this is why it's a critical concern to all SMN. Why would a pet job lack the means to care for the pet?

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Since death of the pet is the second worse DPS loss to a death of the player, this is why it's a critical concern to all SMN. Why would a pet job lack the means to care for the pet?

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Stupid isn't it?
But get this - SMN is not a pet job, it's a DoT job... Wait it's actually also BURST job. So smn is pet\dot\burst job. How does that make any sense at all? haha... It doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Angry_Evil

Stupid isn't it?
But get this - SMN is not a pet job, it's a DoT job... Wait it's actually also BURST job. So smn is pet\dot\burst job. How does that make any sense at all? haha... It doesn't.

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The summoner's pet might as well be an autoattack/ DoT outside of a summoner's actual skillset. Not having a pet is, indeed, a DPS loss.

However, I have to ask: How much of a DPS loss is it, now, to swiftcast a pet back into battle? Before, you used Swiftcast for shadowflare. However, that's now an instant cast on cooldown. I get missing a GCD is DPS loss, but how bad is it actually?

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

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Well, the lower DoT potencies coupled with the entire format of the job being built around getting Bahamut Egi up as much as possible means losing your pet is the worst kind of DPS loss. Literally dying yourself is the only thing worse.

I think Scholar's talk about it more, but the Egi's fo have other skills to use besides their simple auto-attack. A major reason why Garuda is favored over Ifrit is how useful her Contagion skill is.

Not having your pet out demolishes the DPS output.

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Originally Posted by Pells

Bane looses 80% of its damage. How is this less than the 50% loss of Hissatsu:Guren?

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Guren loses 75% of it's damage by the third target hit, going from an Impressive 800 to a meager 200. Bane on the other hand only drops by 80% on the fifth target hit.

Bane was nerfed because you have Bahamut now. His Shockwave and Ahk Morn more than make up for Bane's AoE

They removed sustain because they thought that the improved pet survivability changes would negate the need for it. Pets are now supposed to take much less damage from AOEs but are now weak to direct attacks from mobs. That last part was intended, the wanted you to keep the pet away from the boss and not be a tank.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

The summoner's pet might as well be an autoattack/ DoT outside of a summoner's actual skillset. Not having a pet is, indeed, a DPS loss.

However, I have to ask: How much of a DPS loss is it, now, to swiftcast a pet back into battle? Before, you used Swiftcast for shadowflare. However, that's now an instant cast on cooldown. I get missing a GCD is DPS loss, but how bad is it actually?

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It costs 2400 mana to resummon a pet. That's the DPS loss - all the Ruins you now don't have the mana for.

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Originally Posted by Angry_Evil

Stupid isn't it?
But get this - SMN is not a pet job, it's a DoT job... Wait it's actually also BURST job. So smn is pet\dot\burst job. How does that make any sense at all? haha... It doesn't.

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Get this...White Mage is better DoT DPS than Summoner...Summoner IS a pet job. Whatever you say won't change the fact that significant portion of the damage a summoner does is pet-based, that burst you spoke of included.

As for the DoT, yeah. White Mage deals more damage over time than Summoner. Don't believe?! Here.

White Mage's Aero II have a potency total of 350 over 18 seconds. Aero III have a potency total of 370 (AoE that is NOT decreased in effect on latter enemies) over 24 seconds.
Summoners Bio III have a potency of 400 over 30 seconds. Miasma III have 440 over 30 seconds. You need to use Aetherflow to use Bane (loss of 300 potency Fester or, worse yet, 200 potency AoE Painflare). And when you DO use Bane, second and every later enemy will get significantly reduced damage.

For potency, I divided the time by 3sec and added initial potency (50 in case of all but Bio III). Don't remember whether there is an initial "DoT" tick at the beginning, but I doubt it. And it wouldn't really do that much of a difference anyway.

What does that mean?! Lets see. We'll assume that the player is fantastic at keeping the DoT on (because we're talking about the best possible use of the class), so they are reapplied right after their last tick. We'll assume 360sec, as that's the lowest possible amount of time that can be divided by 18, 24 and 30.

White Mage total potency is 7000 from Aero II and 5500 from Aero III (AoE), for grand total of 12500 against single target. Summoner total potency for Bio III is 4800 and Miasma III is 5280, for grand total of 10080 against single target. Yes, summoner have about 19.5% LESS potency over time than White Mage against single target.

And against multiple targets?! Let's ignore the skill names, I'll give the total over 360 sec.

For White Mage it's 18000, 23500, 29000, 34500 and +5500 for every additional.
For Summoner it's 17760, 23520, 27360, 29280 and +1920 for every additional (remember that initial Miasma III damage is NOT spread by Bane). Also, this is only achievable with a 0 PING, when Bane is used instantly upon using Miasma III and Bio III, meaning no loss of time on the spread debuffs, which is impossible.

That's right. Summoner NEVER deals more damage with DoT than White Mage, all the while spending more resources (comparable MP granted lower durations of Aero II and Aero III, but Aetherflow). It's also a lot easier for White Mage. Cast Aero II, cast Aero III. Cast whichever runs out. You need to use Bane as well for Summoner. And as if that wasn't enough salt added to the injury, White Mage can just start going and casting Aero II on additional targets for larger DoT, easily maintaining it on two or three while still having time to cast other spells. In case of summoner, having to cast both Miasma III and Bio III, keeping it on three mobs is already significantly limiting, while still not giving more potency than for a White Mage.

To be honest though, Summoners "saving grace" is Shadowflare which increases summoners "DoT" (technically) by 250 every minute, so 1500 in 360 sec, which is not decreased by number of enemies. As such, we have total potency of 11700, 20880, 28140, 33480, 36900 for one, two, three, four and five mobs respectively, +3420 for every additional mob. That would mean that White Mage would still win against one mob, but lose against two to six mobs (340 potency only when there are six), but get more and more potency over summoners at seven and more mobs.

Don't get me wrong. We're just talking about DoT's here. Summoners damage is higher than that of White Mages. But their DoT potential, not taking into consideration crit, direct hit, magic attack stat etc...is just pretty much inferior. You get less bang for a higher price.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Stuff

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It's obvious SE is moving SMN away from DOT gameplay and towards being a more burst DPS job. I mean SMN was never touted as being a DOT-centric job, its just how it ended up being. I don't see what your gripe is. DoT makes better sense for healers anyway since the damage is being dealt while they're healing or shielding people, whereas a DPS would want to constantly damaging the target. They took your DPS damage and pumped it into your flare attacks and your summons/Bahamut.

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

To underline the problem with bane, its not simply a matter of the skill being sort of garbage; it's the fact that in the majority of multi-target pull configurations (Over 3 targets), it deals less potency-per-target that Painflare, which shares the same resource pool.

There is almost no situations in which you would choose Bane over Painflare, thus rendering bane nothing more than skill clutter.

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This is actually horribly wrong. Bane will virtually always deal more damage than Painflare. By "virtually always", I mean that it will tie to Painflare on twenty mobs and start dealing more damage if there are over twenty mobs. Here is the potency ADDED by Bane and Painflare (not counting the initial target for Bane, but counting all targets for Painflare) for two to fifteen mobs.

Bane 640, 1120, 1440, 1600, 1760, 1920, 2080, 2240, 2400, 2560, 2720, 2880, 3040, 3200
Painflare 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600, 1800, 2000, 2200, 2400, 2600, 2800, 3000

Remember that though Painflare is fixed 200 potency for every target, and that is certainly quite significant, over their full course, Bio III and Miasma III deal damage worth 800 potency. 20% of that is still 160 potency, meaning that the gap is closed by mere 40 potency with every additional enemy past four. However, stacking Bane does nothing at all, so Painflare should be used in its place every time in AoE situation that the DoT's are already on the targets.

And no. Unfortunately, a single casting of Ruin III is better than what you gain from hard-casting Bio III and Miasma III on second and further enemies. It's 150 VS 80 potency gained from hard-cast Bio III (on second target, meaning best-case scenario) or VS 130 potency gained from hard-cast Miasma III (again, on second target, and remember that it deals additional 50 potency damage when hard-cast).

So yes, Bane is the first go-to AoE spell in every single case there are two or more targets if one requirement is met: the mobs won't die significantly faster than 30sec.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I don't see what your gripe is. DoT makes better sense for healers anyway since the damage is being dealt while they're healing or shielding people, whereas a DPS would want to constantly damaging the target. They took your DPS damage and pumped it into your flare attacks and your summons/Bahamut.

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You completely missed the mark here. I firmly believe that a DPS should NOT be DoT-heavy, since that absolutely sucks for DPS checks with little time. I merely stated the facts of what IS the case and compared it for two classes. Never did I say whether it's good or bad for summoner to be a DoT king.

Also, your argument that DoT is good for healers because it deals damage while they are healing is actually wrong. That's not why it's good for healers, because it doesn't matter whether they deal damage while healing or not. What matters is that when it is done over time, it is far easier for the tanks to keep enmity (or rather, not lose it against healers) than if it would be sudden burst of high damage.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Also, your argument that DoT is good for healers because it deals damage while they are healing is actually wrong. That's not why it's good for healers, because it doesn't matter whether they deal damage while healing or not. What matters is that when it is done over time, it is far easier for the tanks to keep enmity (or rather, not lose it against healers) than if it would be sudden burst of high damage.

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By this reasoning, dots are essential for any non-tank.

Healers aren't going to out-enmity the tank by doing damage, by burst or dot or whatever else. Not without the actual dps ripping off the tank first.

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I merely stated the facts of what IS the case and compared it for two classes.

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Why are you comparing dps of a Healer job's DoTs vs dps of a DPS job's DoTs again? That's like comparing Clemency to Physick.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Bane was nerfed because you have Bahamut now. His Shockwave and Ahk Morn more than make up for Bane's AoE

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lmfao is this a joke response? Bane is an aetherflow ability so you can use it pretty loosely, such as you can be confident it is available at the start of a pull so you can maximize its damage.

Ahk Morn is available, what -- i don't play SMN -- every 120 seconds? So if you're lucky, that 120 second window might line up with where you can maximize AoE. It sounds to me like SMN AoE was nerfed in many more ways than just lost potency. Their whole ability to optimize their dps for AoE damage is ruined because the Bahamut rotation is so restrictive.

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Originally Posted by Pells

By this reasoning, dots are essential for any non-tank.

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Clearly you see there something that does not exist. If nothing else, then because there is no such thing as "essential" in any of my posts.

Also, sorry to burst your bubble, but though very rare and often a result of someone not doing something they should and could, healers can get enmity, and even before DPS classes. Then there are special cases that sometimes happen, like a new mob popping up if there is a patrolling mob. Using a DoT on it will not really interfere with it being pulled by the tank, while it will save time. Attacking it with normal damage will make it harder to pull. There is no threat in higher level content from that, seeing as tanks are pretty well equipped (by that I mean skills, not gear) to deal with it, but at lower ones it can really mess up a pull.

DoT's are not essential for any class by any means, though by their nature, they allow higher potency per cast than other spells which is more relevant for healers that have non-damaging job. But there are times when an attack being a DoT does help. Rare?! Yes. Then again, Provoke is most useful in tank swaps, and compared to the amount of mobs in the game, it is "rare" as well. Even if you may come across it 100% of the time depending on the content you run.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Why are you comparing dps of a Healer job's DoTs vs dps of a DPS job's DoTs again? That's like comparing Clemency to Physick.

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Seriously, just read the post quoted...I won't explain fundamental things like that just cause someone doesn't feel like being bothered to pay attention when reading.

Also, comparing Clemency to Physick is an entirely different thing. Aero II can deal very similar damage to Miasma III thanks to both classes having similar potential for stats that they are based off of. Paladins will never have in any way comparable healing magic stat to a healer. It can be compared to Summoners Physick, and at that point, it is clear that Physick for a Summoner is a waste of slot while Clemency for a Paladin is most certainly acceptable (strong, weak, overpowered, underpowered...doesn't matter).

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Originally Posted by Yallaid

lmfao is this a joke response? Bane is an aetherflow ability so you can use it pretty loosely, such as you can be confident it is available at the start of a pull so you can maximize its damage.

Ahk Morn is available, what -- i don't play SMN -- every 120 seconds? So if you're lucky, that 120 second window might line up with where you can maximize AoE. It sounds to me like SMN AoE was nerfed in many more ways than just lost potency. Their whole ability to optimize their dps for AoE damage is ruined because the Bahamut rotation is so restrictive.

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Actually you can pop off 2 Akh Morn when Bahamut is out for the 20s duration. SMN's AoE attacks are Bane, Painflare, Deathflare, Enkindle, shadowflare, and Akh Morn. Honestly I'm confused on who is actually having issues AoE trash pulls in dungeons. Also bane was nerf because SE hates speed runs but doesn't understand how to nerf speed runs.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Also bane was nerf because SE hates speed runs but doesn't understand how to nerf speed runs.

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Simple solution. Give all mobs a buff based on amount of other mobs in combat with the party, so that three weaklings are piece of cake and six weaklings are going to roflstomp the party. Or any other number based on what the developers want for the dungeon.

And I really think that Bane was nerfed to nerf Scholars damage, and Summoner got hit on the side. That's why I think that it would be better for them to separate the two classes than continue the game of balancing them. Let's be honest. A healer coming out of a DPS class is just a huge mistake.

The Bane nerf was absolutely towards Scholars. That's why Scholars got Miasma 2 while SMN didn't. We needed something to rival Holy and Gravity, but Bane as it was was overpowered on a healer since we had 3 DoTs plus Broil, Ruin, and Ruin 2.

The best option would give SMN a sort of Bane Mastery skill that lowers the potency drop offs.