The Summoning of Susano

We've got a while before any new revelations are upon us, and this is a huge question mark for me. I think it's time Susano got his own thread.

What We Know About Summoning So Far... (Warning: Massive Crash Course)

SUMMONING

The Ascians teach (a specific form of) the art of fashioning entities from aether, often called (along with other dark arts) the "wisdom of the paragons".

Fundamentally, such entities are pretty much the same: extremely over-powered elementals whose manifestation and maintenance invariably draws upon the aether of the land until its balance is thrown into chaos. They corrupt the hearts and minds of those they blast with concentrated internal aether (or, in many cases, those who spend too much time hanging out close to them, within some kind of corrupting aura).

I use the word deiform to open an umbrella over all of these beings, because other words have unique and incompatible connotations.

Deiforms are the perfect tool for the Ascians' ambitions. If they are pitted against threats that might undo them (often one another), their patrons will become more desperate and zealous, striving to summon more potent incarnations. (Recently, Elidibus has seemingly taken to the idea that they can be so utterly defeated as to break the patrons' faith and drive them towards a new god. Hints to this come and go, but have not come to fruition.) Even if a deiform remains relatively inactive, however, maintaining corporeal form will still hurt the land in time. Therefore, it seems that the wisdom of the paragons is itself the problem, the methods designed to create such inevitably damaging beings.

A deiform summoning consists of three ingredients:

• The Beacon: Spiritual Aether: Faith, Prayer, Willpower - Desire.

• The Catalyst: Corporeal Aether: Crystals, Ambient Energy, the Land.

• The Essence: The de-materialized "soul" of a primal, cast into the Lifestream and shorn into uncountable pieces. Often (if not always), the aetherial "atoms" of a being that once lived are drawn together and re-materialized. In such a case, the original being is still dead; the summoned being is at best a shade of its former self and at worst a corruption so severe as to be unrecognizable. It is presently unknown if a deiform can exist without a core of something that once lived, or if essences can be manufacted ex nihilo and re-materialized from there.

THE SUMMONED

No matter what belief system is utilized in the summoning, the result is NOT THAT THING, but a deiform wearing its shape. It is a shade - a thoughtform. In many cases, evidence has later surfaced suggestive that a given deiform has a core of a specific mis-remembered and heavily corrupted historical being.

The appearance, behavior, and temperament of a deiform is determined not only by the faith of the summoners, but their present state of mind. Thus, the summoned being can be whimsical or calculating, philosophical or brutish, isolationist or expansionist, protective or vengeful, and anything in between.

However, while the wisdom of the paragons seems fit to corrupt any belief system, nuances tend to manifest.

The beast tribes of Eorzea believed in primals, elemental beings that existed at the dawn of time and gave birth to the world as they know it. While we still call all summoned beings by this name, only this subset seem to be the "true primals", the Banshin.

Shiva put a spin on this, with Ysayle and her heretics being manipulated into combining the knowledge of primal existence and basic summoning theory with Iceheart's understanding of Saint Shiva's soul and her personal interpretation of Halone. She became a vessel for this essence through the power of the Echo.

This process was replicated with King Thordan. The archbishop (who to this day I suspect was granted the Echo by Elidibus) harnessed 1,000 years of deifying and worshipping Thordan I and his Knights Twelve as an Ishgardian saints.

The Phoenix was implied to be a "pseudoprimal" (that specific word only used in one client language), or manifested as "primal-like power". A massive amount of free-floating aether (drawn by Tupsimati but fed into a spell broken by Bahamut) resonated with the prayers of Eorzeans and were focused on Louisoix, infusing him with power that took the form of the legendary phoenix, a symbol of his deepest desire: Eorzea's rebirth from the ashes. The Leveilleur twins seem to fear that if the truth of the Coils was revealed, the commonfolk would try to re-summon Phoenix to complete its restoration of the realm, thus re-materializing their grandfather's soul and corrupting him into a true deiform.

The false Shinryu seems to be a similar case; the aether of Nidhogg's eyes and the battlefield, combined with the raw desire for vengeance against the Empire by the deceived and broken Resistance, triggered with Ilberd's focus and death. However, because Ilberd was not a mortal infused, who retained sentience and subsequently died, it is likely that Shinryu is much closer to, if not, a true deiform.

Alexander's origins are complicated; a deiform summoning was simply the most convenient way for the Illuminati to bring their warped understanding of the Enigma Codex to fruition. It was based on the ideals of Quickthinx and ostensibly benevolent (Light, Creation, Judgement, etc.), but any bias or nuance that might inherently have existed in the primal seemed to have been overridden by its status as a perfect calculator and time traveler. Finding no way to perform any action or make any change to reality without doing more harm than good, Alexander set into motion events that would undermine its own existence and render it trapped in a contained and stable time loop, minimizing the damage to the inevitable.

In the Third Astral Era, various beings were summoned as representative champions, warring against one another and later used to resist the Allagan Empire. These were called the warring gods, or Toshin. Allag called them Eikons (icons, false gods), a name that Garlemald co-opted and used to describe the deiforms of Othard and Eorzea. The three greatest warring gods were dubbed the Warring Traid, but far more existed. Many were defeated by Allag, some may yet be bound.

FINALLY, LAKSHMI

Hand-waving the solo-summoning of Titan by Ga Bu seemed plausible enough. Titan had been summoned there many times before, a ritual to summon him was being prepared, those preparing the summoning were present, and Ga Bu's dead parents were being used as ritual foci. The pump was primed. Usually you need a group, but Ga Bu's Titan still had an unstable amassing of faith - and Ga Bu's Titan was itself weak and unstable.

Lakshmi is spontaneously summoned by a single Ananta after her daughter is slaughtered as a distraction by Fordola, who was trying to flee Castellum Velodyna. Many Ananta across the Qalyana and Vira worship Sri Lakshmi, but no ritual was prepared, few are present, and only the Qalyana broodmother beseeched intercession.

But even this I can handwave to a degree. The Ananta are profoundly adept at magicks. Yoshida went as far as to imply that the Allagan Empire specifically targeted them for use in creating the Lamia. As the inheritors of Lakshmi's fertility and beauty, they utilize these magicks to weave metal and crystal into jewelry that they believe are reflections of the soul. A powerful Ananta, wearing such jewelry, might be adequate to manifest the appearance of the primal which was then fed by others; especially once she'd tempered a few and had been gifted with crystals.

SO WHAT IS UP WITH SUSANO

Othardians believe in kami, spirits that dwell within all things, their numbers uncountable. Powerful kami prefer precious vessels, such as treasured antiques, sacred relics, exquisite masterpieces, and even the most notable of living things. We have no more proof that the kami are real than we have that the Twelve are real, though they do share certain similarities with the Elementals of the Twelveswood, which Gridanians believe are the most powerful of elemental spirits that exist in all things.

The Kojin collect and hoard any object that they believe a kami to dwell within; they protect and revere these treasures as their own. Among this collection is the great kami Susano, who is divided between the Yasakani-no-Magatama (a jewel), the Yata-no-Kagami (a mirror), and the Ame-no-Murakumo (a sword), so named for the imperial regalia of Japan. It is a set; the kami the sum of its parts, somewhere between "I" and "We".

When these three treasures are brought together, Susano simply appears.

The three treasures react to one another, the red Kojin beseech intercession, and Susano happily obliges. The blue Kojin predicted this, in a way. They knew that Susano was the Lord of the Revel and might delight in your mischief rather than take offense at your intrusion ... so long as you united the treasures and showed them respect.

However, Susano declares his loyalty to the red Kojin in the battle of wills that will be the celebration of your audacity, because they have been the "caretakers of his greater part" (the sword and the glass). He actually seems ignorant of the fact that Hingashi had been suffered to keep the gem until they tried to give it to the Empire.

Now, it's not so strange that spiritual aether would be abundant. The Kojin have likely been focusing belief and reverence on these objects for a long, long time. But how did they come to manifest corporeally a deiform? There was no summoning ritual. There was no gift of crystals. What in the seventh hell is going on?

I would like your theories on this matter. I have little aside from a hip-shot tentative guess.

The best answer I can come up with is to entwine Susano with the only other deiform that breaks the rules: Odin. Eikon...Elder Primal...Kami?

Odin has never truly been destroyed; it seems (as of now) that he was summoned into and/or as the sword Zantetsuken. This sword slowly accumulates aether and is capable of tempering and transforming anyone who touches it, fashioning them into a catalyst for the deiform's corporeal manifestation.

Thus, it seems that Odin has been able to fly under the radar for thousands of years because no one ever thinks to (or is able to) destroy the sword. At best, Urth and/or the Last Allagan Hero sealed it away in water and crystal. (Kind of reminds me of Silvertear Falls...) Instead, the apparent deiform seems to vanish when the host is slain, no longer causing fluctuations in the aether or overdrawing of the land. The sword then appears to slowly "recharge" on ambient aether and wait to begin anew. It's almost like a two-part summoning, with the sword continually repeating the latter half as its own battery, jump-starting its re-manifestation.

I posit that the Yasakani-no-Magatama is perhaps another such battery, created with different faith and thus behaving differently. Perhaps Susano was actually summoned long ago, but only manifests intermittently based on the Magatama's charge and the Kojin's desires.

Perhaps Susano's temperament as a whimsical spirit who cares only to revel, and only in things worth reveling, has co-existed with the Kojin's habit of quietly hoarding relics; he simply rarely appears or has any reason to. We had to put down his corporeal manifestation, and the Kojin don't seem keen to summon him again, but what if he's still in there?

Yet this opens up a terrifying prospect: Imagine that this were true. You could never, ever be sure how many objects were just sitting out there with a full charge, waiting to suddenly auto-summon and temper a new generation of worshippers. Perhaps it is not so difficult to fully destroy these objects if you know what they are and have sufficient power, but they may be capable of self-perpetuation under the right conditions...

Even more of a risk: Imagine how many people in the world might be tempted not to consider these objects slated for immediate destruction. "One must only create a set of circumstances whereby the object can be controlled - utilized when needed and rendered inert after - so as to not be a continuous threat to the land! These objects are tools! Gifts!" It'd be a whole new category of ignorance and arrogance.

Always a fun read.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

But this opens up a terrifying prospect: Imagine that this were true. You could never, ever be sure how many objects were just sitting out there with a full charge, waiting to suddenly auto-summon and temper a new generation of worshippers. Perhaps it is not so difficult to fully destroy these objects if you know what they are and have sufficient power, but they may be capable of self-perpetuation under the right conditions...

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Prayer seems to be very flexible. Imagine, throughout all of the WoLs journey, he begins to amass a following of believers. The scions alone would probably be enough, but everyone is so entranced by our charisma and our ability to never truly falter. People believe in the strength of the WoL... This could trickle down to a symbol. Our weapon. Greatest Warrior in all of Creation they would say. Now look towards the anima. The embodiment of a perfect weapon. Stuffed with Aether. Filled with hope from not only the WoL, but all those that believe in the WoL. I know, for example, that HW's anima was already sentient.. How much farther would it have to go to become a kami in its own right? xD

Another thought I had, since I'm sure well see stranger summons to come: What would happen if a Deiform or a group of Deiforms could call upon something greater? Recognizing that they alone did not have the strength, something that thus far pride has kept them from realizing, to protect their own, to banish their enemies from their land, for vengeance and sought to call forth a one truer being... xD FF10's Dream all over again.

Aether can be harbored in many things, not just crystals or dragons' eyes. That said, the jewel, mirror, and sword might hold within them huge amounts of aether, not unlike Tupsimati. Perhaps Susano was summoned once before but was sealed into the 3 items and split apart rather than defeated. Bringing them together simply undid the seal and "released him". Thus he was constantly summoned but just divided and housed within the sacred treasures, his spirit not having been in the Lifestream prior to his eminent appearance in the MSQ. Since he wasn't being pulled from the Lifestream but simply unleashed from the 3 treasures, there's no need for the ritual.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Yet this opens up a terrifying prospect: Imagine that this were true. You could never, ever be sure how many objects were just sitting out there with a full charge, waiting to suddenly auto-summon and temper a new generation of worshippers. Perhaps it is not so difficult to fully destroy these objects if you know what they are and have sufficient power, but they may be capable of self-perpetuation under the right conditions...

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Why does this suddenly feel very relevant?

http://i.imgur.com/KrUThkE.png

Regarding Lakshmi, I think her role in the story was to really drive home the point that you don't need crystals to summon a primal. Any source of aether will do and in this case I think it was simply the death of the broodmother's daughter that provided it.

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Originally Posted by Erik

When a living thing dies, the aether comprising its life is released. It has been learned that when this discharge takes place, a portion of that aether remains, lingering in the physical world. No doubt you have come across aetherial crystallizations in the course of your travels.
The more violent and dramatic the loss of life, the greater the amount of inner aether released to take the form of crystlas or remain imperceptibly in the atmosphere.

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This, together with Susano seems to be more build up towards what Ysayle charging at Gration already hinted at. What will the garleans do if it turns out that just about anyone could in theory summon a primal on a whim, be it with the aid of some 'battery' (Odin/Susano) or by killing a random bystander (Lakshmi)?

Perhaps it's the belief that the 3 pieces would summon Susano when brought together... the summoning rites seem to be nothing more than a way to focus faith and stir up the aether... since the red kojin already worship the items as Gods, their belief in bringing the 3 pieces together maybe what sparked the summoning. The aether could be stored in the items themselves....

Crystals are used to summon elemental entities, as the crystals themselves, in many FF games, are elementally focused. In effect, certain beast tribes literally worship a singular element, not really a "god".

Mog King, is well the King. He isn't a summon, but has a "resting period" in another dimension after his time on our plain of existence.

Kami on the other hand, can be literally anything that is considered to be sacred. Rocks, trees, the three regalia as is with Susano'o. These items are in effect given life simply by worship. They are the embodiment of others hopes, wishes, and dreams.

Literally, anything can be turned into a Kami; however, a full blown summoning like this will be rare. These three items were specifically worshiped by an entire people, and it took three of these objects to full summon Susano'o. I don't think we have to worry about a singular random object sprouting a summon anytime soon, but the potential for more combinations of highly worshiped items is very real with the current way they are going about this.

Susano'o is interesting because he suggests that primals are not entirely fabrications summoned by Ascian-taught rituals, but rather a natural phenomenon that can occur under the right conditions. Nobody wanted or tried to summon Susano'o - it just kind of happened, which does fit with his role as a(n unpredictable) storm god but doesn't fit what we know of primal summonings.

Curiously, Susano'o also doesn't seem to be possessed of the malice or desire to temper Ascian-taught primals do. He simply does what he is said to do - revel in combat, wild and pure and forever free. I'd be very interested to see more such "natural" primals, and would wager we'll see Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu during 4.x.

Perhaps susano isnt a false primal like the others we've faced... maybe he's the real deal

The points in above posts are what make it so difficult.

The journal says he is a primal, implying this just a deiform wearing a kami's visage.

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Originally Posted by Duty Finder

Unfortunately, for reasons beyond your knowing, two of the sacred treasures stored in the isle's vault “reacted” to the presence of the Yasakani–no–Magatama, summoning forth from the aether the great kami Susano─a primal by another name.

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And while the above says that the Magatami did this on its own (SOMEHOW), Triple Triad also says the Kojin summoned Susano at some point.

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Originally Posted by Triple Triad Card

A deity summoned forth by the Kojin, Susano resided in three sacred receptacles. As well as being one of the greatest kami, this entity is also revered as the god of the sea. The Lord of the Revel rejoices in both battle and banquet, meeting all challengers with jubilant and unrestrained ferocity.

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Well what is a primal without worshipers? The Kojin worshiped the divine relics or kami. Thoradin became King Thoradin from prayers of ishguardians. Phoenix same thing. I am sure if there isn't aether crystals in close proximity certain primals can draw aether from their surroundings to compensate. The only limiter with susano was he had to have 3 relics in order to be summoned. He had everything a normal primal well as much normal as you could call certain ones required for summoning. Base materials prayers and aether.

Thinking about it. I'm gonna say that rituals aren't truely necessary for a summon. All a ritual does is focalize faith.

Every summoning, in some way is different.

The same primal can be summoned multiple ways for example. One requires crystals the other requires crystals and a sacrifice of the faithful.

"But the ascians taught them how to..." If i lived in a world where primals existed and I was scared Id believe a voodoo man when he tells me that if we kill someone that they will be our salvation through summoning a god to protect my people and myself. Id have to believe that I wasnt killing a friend just for him to die. If i was a terrified beastman/other.

The belief of the kojin is that within luxurious treasures lives spirits. Susano embodies the free living, "revelling", nature of the noble kamis. For generations they have told themselves that reuniting the treasures would please the kami within them. If even one kojin saw that they had been reunited and had one desperate thought of the wol intruding on what is essentially the Kojin la Vatican, it stirred the aether that had been within the artifacts, building exponentially since the moment they were seperated. Thus the Powerp----Susano was born!

Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Lutefisk

Regarding Lakshmi, I think her role in the story was to really drive home the point that you don't need crystals to summon a primal. Any source of aether will do and in this case I think it was simply the death of the broodmother's daughter that provided it.

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Unless I'm completely misremembering, it is stated the gems and materials used to craft their jewelry is aether attuned, and that is what was used for the summoning.

I'm curious how the creatures created by Omega are related to primals, if at all. They are wholesale crated from Aether based on legends, so there was no initial 'pattern' in the lifestream, if you will, yet they can clearly manifest in the real world as sentient beings.

Also, since I'm new to the Lore boards and the discussion, I'm wondering if someone can point me to a quick primer on where the 12 fit in as they relate to primals.

I think the key to Susano's formation as a deiform is found in the Kojin's dialogue on kami. If a deiform's origins requires an original spirit to evolve into said deiform, then Susano's original spirit may well have been something akin to an Elemental that found the three relics to be a better housing for it than a rock or tree. From there, the only thing required for its transformation is faith, which we see plenty of evidence of from both tribes of Kojin. As for aether, my guess is that the sea itself is teaming with the water elemental aether, or that the fact that if an Elemental became the Primal, then it retained its ability to utilize surrounding aether in its summoning.

This theory could possibly hold true for Zantetsuken, as it summons Odin in a similar way to the three regalia summoning Susano.

Apologies for the super late reply, trying to unlearn years of muscle memory makes for a forgetful mind.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

Unless I'm completely misremembering, it is stated the gems and materials used to craft their jewelry is aether attuned, and that is what was used for the summoning.

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After a few rereads through the relevant quests I guess I'll have to concede to that, seems like I glazed over that detail in the early morning hours when I was going through that part of the main scenario. And yet I can't shake off the feeling that Anamika's death played the bigger part in the summoning. Perhaps I jumped the gun with assuming that it alone was enough to call forth a primal in this occasion, but it certainly feels like a natural evolution of the concept that was first introduced in 2.1 and later revisited in 3.4/3.5.

But to reiterate the point I was trying to make in my original post, it feels like Stormblood is trying to break away from the rigid, predictable cycle of ”beastmen hoard crystals, beastmen summon primal.” What if you could no longer predict when someone might feel like pulling a primal out of their hat by merely monitoring the trade of crystals? It could very well be that we'll never see a 100% crystal-free soylent primal, but I think the possibility is there.

The biggest disappointment with Susano for me is that he didn't really feel tied to the Kojin (or his origin in-game). It felt like Stoned Ravanah and the way it was handled even reeked of, "We need a primal somewhere in here and we want to use Susano, so sure, why not." Had they made him more like Gilgamesh (from F/SN, not so much FF) in that he fought more by spamming/showing off sacred treasures and legendary items, then I'd be less negative about it, but eh...

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Originally Posted by Lutefisk

But to reiterate the point I was trying to make in my original post, it feels like Stormblood is trying to break away from the rigid, predictable cycle of ”beastmen hoard crystals, beastmen summon primal.” What if you could no longer predict when someone might feel like pulling a primal out of their hat by merely monitoring the trade of crystals? It could very well be that we'll never see a 100% crystal-free soylent primal, but I think the possibility is there.

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Thordan. He used the Eye instead of Crystals to get what he needed.

So there are alternate avenues. Maybe someone just starts siphoning the lifestream?

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Susano'o is interesting because he suggests that primals are not entirely fabrications summoned by Ascian-taught rituals, but rather a natural phenomenon that can occur under the right conditions. Nobody wanted or tried to summon Susano'o - it just kind of happened, which does fit with his role as a(n unpredictable) storm god but doesn't fit what we know of primal summonings.

Curiously, Susano'o also doesn't seem to be possessed of the malice or desire to temper Ascian-taught primals do. He simply does what he is said to do - revel in combat, wild and pure and forever free. I'd be very interested to see more such "natural" primals, and would wager we'll see Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu during 4.x.

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I have to wonder if this difference is simply due to us being in a place less affected by Ascian manipulation, or if it is a symptom of something much larger. The ease with which Susano and Lakshmi were accidentally summoned is extremely problematic as it renders the Scions' efforts against primals somewhat pointless. It also doesn't fit in with our understanding of Eorzea being rife with primals due to its aether concentration; it should be harder to summon outside Eorzea, not easier.

Is it possible that something has changed that is making summoning easier across Hydaelyn? I ask this because there is an unresolved plot thread that was brought up again in the MSQ: the strange aether readings in the Shroud discovered immediately prior to Wilred's death. The MSQ prompts us to remember this (in Rhalgr's Reach IIRC) so it seems to me that it may hold some significance going forward...

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Originally Posted by Alberel

I have to wonder if this difference is simply due to us being in a place less affected by Ascian manipulation

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I'm hoping this is something explored in the future. We don't see any Ascian influence there now, but we're late to this party. Othard was summoning primals and going to war over twenty-five years ago. The Source's overlord was (presumably) ganked and his minions vaporized or scattered to the wind this year. Did Ascians play a part back then? Are we seeing lingering effects?

There's also the less likely possibility that some remain and are just working unseen. The Ascians have almost always remained hidden and worked in secret; the first thing you hear about them in 2.00 is that the Scions can't fathom why they would be so brazen now. Maybe with Lahabrea missing and Elidibus focusing on major players, there are still a few black-masks wandering around acting as they did in the old days.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Is it possible that something has changed that is making summoning easier across Hydaelyn?

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Much earlier in the game, between Minfilia's assertion that primals cannot exist when the world is stable, Lahabrea's rambling about the natural order coming undone, and the (then unconfirmed) theory that primals were just throughtforms, I considered the possibility of a positive feedback loop - that the first primals would be very difficult to summon (explaining why Travanchet went after the horn), but as more conflict arose, as the aether became more imbalanced, as Hydaelyn grew weaker, and chaos reigned, it would become easier and easier for mortals to tread on the domain of gods and cause will to manifest. It seemed like perhaps that was part of the point - that usually creation via volition is the domain of the Crystal, but that when Her laws were weakened, mankind could trespass on this act. I haven't revisited that possibility in a long, long time but Ga Bu, Susano, and Lakshmi have put it back in my mind.

On Susano, I thought his summoning to be much the same as Odin, too.

Odin is curious in that, despite lacking a circle of "worshippers," their is still the legend surrounding him and his sword. Omega's use of old fairytail creatures made manifest adds a bit to it.

People don't "worship" these ideas, the character and myth, but people still think about them. Children believe in fairytails, adults love to relay them. Odin could be the star of a ghost story.

It's a thought.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'm hoping this is something explored in the future. We don't see any Ascian influence there now, but we're late to this party. Othard was summoning primals and going to war over twenty-five years ago. The Source's overlord was (presumably) ganked and his minions vaporized or scattered to the wind this year. Did Ascians play a part back then? Are we seeing lingering effects?

There's also the less likely possibility that some remain and are just working unseen. The Ascians have almost always remained hidden and worked in secret; the first thing you hear about them in 2.00 is that the Scions can't fathom why they would be so brazen now. Maybe with Lahabrea missing and Elidibus focusing on major players, there are still a few black-masks wandering around acting as they did in the old days.

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Well we do at least know that the Ascians have a presence in Othard as the whole Shisui of the Violet Tides timeline traces back to the appearance of a rather obvious black robed individual. The Ascians work to encourage deliberate summoning, however, and yet these cases were both seemingly unintentional. I suppose it's possible that the Ascians may have still had a hand in the summonings in other ways though.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Much earlier in the game, between Minfilia's assertion that primals cannot exist when the world is stable, Lahabrea's rambling about the natural order coming undone, and the (then unconfirmed) theory that primals were just throughtforms, I considered the possibility of a positive feedback loop - that the first primals would be very difficult to summon (explaining why Travanchet went after the horn), but as more conflict arose, as the aether became more imbalanced, as Hydaelyn grew weaker, and chaos reigned, it would become easier and easier for mortals to tread on the domain of gods and cause will to manifest. It seemed like perhaps that was part of the point - that usually creation via volition is the domain of the Crystal, but that when Her laws were weakened, mankind could trespass on this act. I haven't revisited that possibility in a long, long time but Ga Bu, Susano, and Lakshmi have put it back in my mind.

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This is sort of where my thoughts have been wandering as well. The act of summoning alone furthers the goals of the Ascians, that much is clear. They never really care when we strike down a primal. We know that the aether used to summon a primal is corrupted somehow but we've never had an explanation for what that corruption entails. Maybe this is the result? Aether that is more easily shaped by will? I have to wonder then if slaying primals is also part of the Ascians' plan. Summoning a primal corrupts the aether used but only slaying it returns that corruption to the lifestream...

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Well we do at least know that the Ascians have a presence in Othard as the whole Shisui of the Violet Tides timeline traces back to the appearance of a rather obvious black robed individual.

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Precisely! While we can't be sure what's natural conflict, what's the lingering effect of potential meddling 25~ years ago, and what's fresh meddling, (in order of probability) we do have at least one example that shows that it is happening.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

I have to wonder then if slaying primals is also part of the Ascians' plan.

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Even if we turn out to be incorrect about a feedback loop existing, primals being slain is definitely part of the Ascian agenda, now and in the past.

When confronted with something that runs contrary to faith, it's more likely that the zealous will find ways to excuse, justify, or ignore that thing before they will actually cede their beliefs. The defeat of a primal thus only spurs its worshippers to reach for more power. It was only defeated because it needed more crystals. It was only defeated because it didn't have enough prayers. It was only defeated because it needs more worshippers. It was handicapped somehow. More aether, more prayer, more tempering, summon it again.

In this era, we were doing Lahabrea's work for him, which is one reason he arrogantly toyed with us rather than take us out when he had a better chance at it. He didn't even have to pit the primals against each other or an empire to make the tribes desire stronger incarnations, we just zipped from place to place inspiring it on our own.

This is why, when Elidibus wanted to break the tribes' faiths and redirect their beliefs, the Warriors of Darkness were meant to inspire incredibly strong primals and effortlessly slay them - to show there was no excuse, but their gods were insufficient.

Everything just seems to work regardless of whether the feedback loop is a thing, which makes it even harder to pin down. And that's to say nothing of the fact that the Ascians only need to give knowledge one time; it can be used immediately or years later, once or repeatedly. If you didn't know about the history of the Paragons acting in 1562 up through 1572, the Ascians wouldn't have seemed to have been involved in even Titan, Garuda, or Ifrit (aside from the latter name-dropping them).

I don't think Susano was a Primal, of course we think of him as such but he didn't actually show any Primal characteristics while manifest in the world. He never hungered for aether since he never consumed other Kojin relics that probably held aether as far as we can tell. He never drained the land of aether, no Kojin were tempered, while there was faith in the kami as a whole that is not the same as beckoning your specific god to intervene, the Kojin only seemed to know his name after he announced himself. Yes, Lyse and Alisae said that he was a Primal, but they never took any actions to confirm that at all, no checking with an aetherscope, just the panicked assumption that Susano was a Primal.

So then what was he? I have to take the Kojin at their word for this, I think Susano was a Kami made manifest. Why shouldn't the Kami be able to take physical form? What rules prevent them from doing that? This doesn't mean that Susano wasn't a threat and had to be dealt with, he was and we did. However it does mean that our understanding of spiritual phenomena is less comprehensive than we thought and biased in favor of just shoving all manifest beings under the umbrella Primal and not understanding that this may be a different phenomena altogether that looks like a Primal manifestation to the unobservant.

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Originally Posted by Nuach

*snip*

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On the flip side of this, we don't know he WASN'T a Primal. We never witnessed him tempering anyone, but that doesn't mean he couldn't. We didn't check to see if he was Siphoning Aether, but that doesn't mean he wasn't. The conditions were sufficient for the summoning of a Primal; the Kojin's faith in their treasures is strong, and we were in the treasure room where there were likely high levels of aether among many of the treasures (and even if not, we'd just finished slaughtering a bunch of Kojin to get them riled up, so there were sacrifices being made).

I do agree that the possibility is there that Susano is a different kind of entity, but at this point there's not enough evidence to say one way or another. Personally, I believe that Susano is a Primal of the same sort as Odin, simply due to the fact that both are entities bound to artifacts - but that's just my personal opinion. There's plenty of evidence pointing in other directions, as well.

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Originally Posted by Dark-Saviour

Thordan. He used the Eye instead of Crystals to get what he needed.

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But it's still something you have to lug around much like those those piles of crystals.


That aside, if Susano really is another primal like Odin, then are the three treasures also recreating the likeness of someone who died holding them like Zantetsuken does with Odin? A Kojin whose belongings were placed in the vault so long ago that his name was forgotten and the objects are now treated as the most sacred of treasures because no one remembers their real origin?

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Words.

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I agree with you that it was made ambiguous, I think that our differing interpretations is just how we view the lack of evidence. Without clear evidence that Susano is a Primal, even a single behavior that is known to be taken by Primals, tempering, hunger, I default to the lack of evidence may be evidence of absence, though perhaps in this erroneously since Susano was only around for a very short time. Whereas, if you'll forgive the assumption, you see the lack of evidence not as evidence of absence but instead simply as the lack of evidence without any greater implications, and thus default back to the closest possible analogue, Odin. I don't necessarily believe that either method of dealing with a lack of evidence is wrong, though there are philosophical schools that disagree with me there.

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Originally Posted by Nuach

Without clear evidence that Susano is a Primal

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Originally Posted by Duty Finder

Susano─a primal by another name

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Are you choosing to write this one off as deliberate misinformation?

Such disinformation does exist, and it is up to us to isolate it. This one I have admitted accepted thus far, since it's a clause specifically tacked onto system text in order to provide clarification.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Are you choosing to write this one off as deliberate misinformation?

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Yes, I am. While written as an objective observer, the narrator of the duty finder has made lore mistakes before, such as the Ramuh EX description where it referred to a plurality of Warriors of Light while contradicted everywhere else with your character as the singular WoL. I cannot treat it as any sort of lore source itself, it has been shown to be wrong about previous circumstances and is ultimately not omniscient. Thus I refer only to the in-game script and the encyclopedia as valid lore sources as they can be debated on their own merits, rather than system messages that have been wrong before.

The part that makes me wonder about if he's a primal or not is how shocked the kojin were at his spontaneous summoning... nobody called out to susano to intervene... it was more of a "omg it's susano!" Maybe the Kami are closer to the elementals than primals... but we as eorzeans can only default back to our past experience with beast tribes and primals... it felt more like susano was a genie trapped in a bottle... the battle with him was his "I'm finally free! Let's get rowdy!" party... on the flipside maybe his love of freedom keeps him from tempering his followers

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

The part that makes me wonder about if he's a primal or not is how shocked the kojin were at his spontaneous summoning... nobody called out to susano to intervene... it was more of a "omg it's susano!" Maybe the Kami are closer to the elementals than primals... but we as eorzeans can only default back to our past experience with beast tribes and primals... it felt more like susano was a genie trapped in a bottle... the battle with him was his "I'm finally free! Let's get rowdy!" party... on the flipside maybe his love of freedom keeps him from tempering his followers

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The Kojin were shocked because Susano isn't really the true primal, much as Odin isn't. The real primal is the imbued artifacts. Susano is merely an extension of them much as Odin is an extension of his sword. As for tempering, however, I belive you're very much correct; Susano values wild freedom above all else and so it would make sense that he exerts no control over the Kojin.

For me the following are my definitions:

Primal - an entity summoned by the will of the living people of THAT world (thats why Ascions have to encourage peeps to summon, and why they dont themselves). Once destroyed, their aether returns to the planet.

Elder Primal - an entity summoned in the same way as above, but from a prior era.

Eikon - a primal whose entity has been summoned but whose aether is bound to an item or items. Once they are destroyed, their spirit returns to that item rather than rejoining the lifestream. This means they can keep reappearing after they gather enough aether to do so.

This leads me to the following questions:

1) When we die, we are bound to a crystal. Age old question, yes you know where I'm going with this.

2) We know an Ascian can be bound to crystal instead of roaming to find another body. What does this say about ascians?

3) We know people can summon primals into themselves, and even control them completely with their will. It seems only those with the echo can possibly do this. We know ascians can control the will of those they possess...is their a similar reasoning behind this? Why can they control humans* when they didn't summon them? (or...)

4) Why do all the primals seem trapped and released at the battle of silvertear falls? prior eras had primals? didn't they?...what if....those are all just memories people obtained during rejoinings? Why the crystal tower appeared out of no where, and other such ancient relics?


so many questions every time we get more answers :)