DRK - Teach me when/how/where/why to use The Blackest Night

So everyone says use it, it's a DPS gain, etc. but I'm not sure exactly when or how to use it. I typically reserve it for tank busters like Susano's or Lakshmi's only, and never really tend to use it otherwise. When else should I be using it? When does its MP cost take priority over Dark Arts?

TBN is the shortest tank cooldown you use it in order to gain 50 Blackblood which give us a chance to Delirium, Queitus, and Bloodspiller. Basically you pop it at the start so you can Blood Price + Delirium ( or use it on MT so you can Blood Weapon + Delirium). I use it on tankbuster a too in addition to pair up with my other cooldowns.

Its MP cost is a gain over Dark Arts if it pops, and its also the only cooldown you have available in between Rampart casts, so unless you want to take 70s-worth of completely unmitigated auto attacks/cleaves/raid aoes, use it more or less on cooldown. Line it up with any cast the boss does, time it so it catches two AAs, etc.

When casting it on your co-tank, its much weaker and pops very easily, so it should be cake to time properly.

So, do you only use Dark Arts with Bloodspiller if you're in Grit? What about when out of Grit?

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Originally Posted by Mithron

So, do you only use Dark Arts with Bloodspiller if you're in Grit? What about when out of Grit?

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You're overthinking it. Use Dark Arts on everything, just as long as you have enough to use it on Carve and Spit.

Bloodspiller has priority, especially in Grit, but that doesn't mean you "only" DA Bloodspiller and never anything else. You'll just end up overflowing if you do that, Grit or not.

Abyssal Drain in 9/10 times without Dark Arts is a waste except for very rare ocasions.

Basically you want to Dark Arts everything except Syphon Strike unless your MP is full and your MP should be never full, ever unless you haven't pulled yet.

As for Carve and Spit, DAing or not is situational. The DPS is nice but the instant MP gain is too good to pass up. Generally only mandatory in burn phases or when OTing.

As for TBN, you generally want to use it all the time whenever its up as long you are actively taking damage. Unless there's a buster or any other heavy dmg incoming or if your blood gauge is full.

Sometimes things will die too quickly or get stunned, meaning you might not proc the blood gauge increase. Comes with the job really, taking less dmg and allowing the healer to dps more/have less to do is always appreciated and makes you look good.

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Originally Posted by Mekhana

As for Carve and Spit, DAing or not is situational. The DPS is nice but the instant MP gain is too good to pass up. Generally only mandatory in burn phases or when OTing.

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The mana return on unboosted C&S is a safety net or an AoE supplement and something you should never ever do in single target unless you screw up badly. This has been the case since the job launched 2 years ago.

So basically, spam TBN all the time as long as it can get broken... which isn't very fun at all and not what I imagined DRK to play like. I miss 3.0 DRK so much.

Also, why not Dark Arts Siphon Strike? That's one of my priorities for Dark Arts, since it almost fully refunds MP allowing you to get an extra Dark Arts value in whereas otherwise you wouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

So basically, spam TBN all the time as long as it can get broken... which isn't very fun at all and not what I imagined DRK to play like. I miss 3.0 DRK so much.

Also, why not Dark Arts Siphon Strike? That's one of my priorities for Dark Arts, since it almost fully refunds MP allowing you to get an extra Dark Arts value in whereas otherwise you wouldn't.

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DA doesn't effect MP return on SS. There is nothing wrong with DA+SS, in fact many people do it during burn phase. The reason people more often DA+SE is because of the extra HP. There are many cases where you will want to use DA on both.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

So basically, spam TBN all the time as long as it can get broken... which isn't very fun at all and not what I imagined DRK to play like. I miss 3.0 DRK so much.

Also, why not Dark Arts Siphon Strike? That's one of my priorities for Dark Arts, since it almost fully refunds MP allowing you to get an extra Dark Arts value in whereas otherwise you wouldn't.

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When you are low on MP and BW or BP isn't up, you might need the MP generated from Syphon for something else. Such as the aforementioned TBN here or to DA something else instead.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

The mana return on unboosted C&S is a safety net or an AoE supplement and something you should never ever do in single target unless you screw up badly. This has been the case since the job launched 2 years ago.

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I haven't DA C&S in a while unless the DPS is really, really lacking. However, I never would say never. Intimacy is essential in any encounter/pull/boss fight and if a window comes up you could DA it I don't really see why not especially if you aren't using it over the period a second C&S would become available.

I'm also talking about five mans or in general of course.

I'm like 99% sure that Dark Arts Siphon Strike gives more MP than not Dark Artsing it... Maybe it's different with/without grit but I make it a point to Dark Arts Siphon Strike because of the extra MP refund.

I guess I'm thinking it gives more MP simply because of the damage increase.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I'm like 99% sure that Dark Arts Siphon Strike gives more MP than not Dark Artsing it... Maybe it's different with/without grit but I make it a point to Dark Arts Siphon Strike because of the extra MP refund.

I guess I'm thinking it gives more MP simply because of the damage increase.

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It doesn't. Grit Syphon gives you more mana than non-Grit Syphon (twice as much). DAing it affects the damage but not the mana return.

Where I struggle is being too low on mp to use it when I see a window, only for that window to close by the time I spit out my next SS. Seems to happen always when I am hard slashing, just can't get the next SS fast enough....

it works like this:

You will want to DA everything when BW+delirium up. I mean you will be DAing basically everything for the next 3 combos.
now, tips:
- if there is no need for mobility, save plunge to use when BW is up.
- DA order: C&S>BS>SE=SS (SE in grit gives health, so if you have to choose, choose SE).
- if you can save Bloodspillers for grit, do it. Just dont sit on 100 blood waiting to get back on grit, you are wasting resources!!
- DA to your hearts content, until you reach 40-50% mana, you want mana for TBN, C&S or a stance swap.
- C&S should aways be DAed, unless: 1-multiple trash pulls, use C&S to keep the AoE going; 2-you screwed and need mana asap.
- you really dont want to waste delirium on blood price. Use it with BW. unless you screwed up and need that delirium mana asap on grit.
- if you are ot, make a macro to TBN the main tank, a trigered TBN is the best use of mana whatsoever.

TL-DR
TBN and DA C&S > all
mana>40-50%.... DA whatever you want bro.
mana<40-50%.... save for TBN and DA C&S.
The mana reserve is somewhat personal, im confortable with 40% mana reserve, maybe less depending on the situation and encounter knowledge.

Follow-up question, should Bloodspiller only be used in conjunction with DA?

dark arts your dark arts

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Originally Posted by bweisnicht

Follow-up question, should Bloodspiller only be used in conjunction with DA?

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Out of Grit, DA does the same for BS, SS and SE, so if you don't have enough MP, it doesn't matter which one you don't DA.

In Grit, it's a slight DPS loss to DA SE (or SS) above BS, but if you need the HP or are capped on Blood but miss the MP, it's not a huge drop.

The Darkest night is based used to nullify / lower major attacks damage. Example Shin fight use it on Primal Major attacks, if well geared and timed dmg is 0. Dark arts on other skills like Dark Mind help a lot as well. It's all about timing and MP management. If yoru a massive dungeon puller is a nice way to get constant Dark bar up and get some quick breath in for healers.

on a serious note tho does drk even have a rotation mines only 64 leveled pali first but wouldnt you basicly dark arts soul eater constantly, use cs when its up and bloodspiller are is there a set type rotation youd use.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

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Keep in mind that TBN is only a slight DPS gain if you always pop the shield and get your 50 gauge. The DPS increase is very small if you pop it consistently but if you don't the dps loss is rather significant.
Compare the following scenarios:
- 3 BS outside of grit fueled by TBN = 1200 potency for 7200MP
- a full Soul Eater combos with 2 DA= 950 potency for 3600MP (4800 for 2 DA and you get 1200 back from Syphon Strike)

Now the 3600MP difference means that you'll get to do 1.5 DA later with translate into 210 oGCD potency later (1 DA = 140 potency), putting the 3 BS at 1200 vs 1160 potency from the SE combos.
A small potency gain but at the risk of losing a lot more if you don't pop shield.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Keep in mind that TBN is only a slight DPS gain if you always pop the shield and get your 50 gauge. The DPS increase is very small if you pop it consistently but if you don't the dps loss is rather significant.
Compare the following scenarios:
- 3 BS outside of grit fueled by TBN = 1200 potency for 7200.

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Im totally confused but I have 6 levels to 70 my plan with Blackest Knight was to just use it as a df cool down which was gona be often sense it can be used every 15 seconds would I lose dps using it this way?

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Keep in mind that TBN is only a slight DPS gain if you always pop the shield and get your 50 gauge. The DPS increase is very small if you pop it consistently but if you don't the dps loss is rather significant.
Compare the following scenarios:....
A small potency gain but at the risk of losing a lot more if you don't pop shield.

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Not sure how you get it to work, but when I pop it I get from min30-50 based on DMG during that time. I do large pulls on dungeons, and on bosses almost always get 50. Then again this is used to do quick charges and only use Dark arts for Dark mind or Abyssal Drain. Otherwise I tend to make the job of my healer easy for them during Bosses. Everyone has their own style so it really depends on what your using it for. I've been told it's a bug because everyone's damage goes down except my own. Even after explanation people still don't believe it. Dark arts + Dark mind + Darkest = almost 100% dmg null for most magic based attacks and fast gauge charge. At least just one way of using it. While yes you could use it on the offensive I rather make it for my healer if I can onlarge pull. being I've played healer as well.

Note depending on play style ,stats and updates

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Im totally confused but I have 6 levels to 70 my plan with Blackest Knight was to just use it as a df cool down which was gona be often sense it can be used every 15 seconds would I lose dps using it this way?

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You will understand once you have it. For now get to 70,unlock it then ask questions :P It will be less confusing that way.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Im totally confused but I have 6 levels to 70 my plan with Blackest Knight was to just use it as a df cool down which was gona be often sense it can be used every 15 seconds would I lose dps using it this way?

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It all depends if you can time TBN correctly for the shield to break within the 5 sec duration.
For the most part, it's not difficult to break it but it's happened that I use it when the boss starts a long cast/jump/phase swift resulting in the shield to be wasted.
Anytime the shield doesn't break and you don't get 50 gauge from it, it's a DPS loss.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Not sure how you get it to work, but when I pop it I get from min30-50 based on DMG during that time

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Well the question was about using TBN as a DPS gain which implies that you try to do it as much as possible on cooldown. If you using outside of tank busters, you take the risk of the shield not breaking and thus get no dps gain in return. Usually, 2 auto attacks from boss is enough to break it but your TBN timing can be off and the shield expires before the 2nd auto.
Also, TBN gives 50 gauge when the shield breaks, nothing otherwise. There's no scaling from the absorbed damage that would make you get 30 gauge.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Well the question was about using TBN as a DPS gain which implies that you try to do it as much as possible on cooldown. If you using outside of tank busters, you take the risk of the shield not breaking and thus get no dps gain in return. Usually, 2 auto attacks from boss is enough to break it but your TBN timing can be off and the shield expires before the 2nd auto.
Also, TBN gives 50 gauge when the shield breaks, nothing otherwise. There's no scaling from the absorbed damage that would make you get 30 gauge.

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So in some other words you and I see it differently, use it differently, and benefit from it differently. Thx for the input.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

So in some other words you and I see it differently, use it differently, and benefit from it differently. Thx for the input.

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It's not about seeing it differently and there's nothing wrong with how you're using it.
I'm just responding in the perspective of the OP, i.e. use of TBN as a dps gain.

If you are actively tanking it's pretty much a no brainer to use TBN whenever you are pretty certain the shield will break. It's a lot of mitigation on a short cooldown, besides being a DPS increase in grit. You should be able to use it in such a way that it will be ready to cover tankbusters in addition to some general usage. 20 seconds is a short CD, don't waste the skill holding onto it for a very long time.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Not sure how you get it to work, but when I pop it I get from min30-50 based on DMG during that time.

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TBN, if it breaks, will always give 50 Blood Gauge. If the shield does not break you will get nothing.There are no other options.
The only time you would "get" only 30 gauge is if you were already in possession of 70 gauge and you overflowed - Then you've simply wasted 20 points.