DRG's Dragon Sight and the problem with community feedback

Increasing Dragon Sight range is a terrible change and the fact it is being changed as a result of community feedback is very disappointing.

There are a huge number of skills that give some kind of damage buff on use in this game that, otherwise, don't impact gameplay. Dragon Sight was something more. It effected how you play in a simple and fun way.

It didn't involve a dps loss that would take away from your enjoyment by making you feel like you were sacrificing something, as you want to be in melee anyway.

It wasn't overly punishing. You might loose your 10% buff on a single gcd if you and your partner go to opposite flanks for positionals or something, but its not like the buff is then completely removed, you just have to move a little.

It wasn't confusing. It is visually easy to see and easy to understand for non dragoons.


Yet people still complained. They complained because drg dps was overall too low so they exaggerated the difficulty or awkwardness of other things, like dragon sight, to try to get their point across that dragoons need buffing.

Now Dragon Sight will (effectively) be like every other boring dps buff skill. Press one button, get a buff. No thought or gameplay required. I don't think anyone will actually enjoy the class more as a result of this change, but plenty of people will enjoy the class less and, even if its only by a little bit, it is still sad to see changes that go in the wrong direction.

How class abilities work and overall dps output are two separate issues. However people are so desperate for buffs, or scared of nerfs, for their class that their feedback doesn't reflect this. Anything that adds or includes some challenge to a class will be something that some people will complain about. When a class is overall in a bad position then anything about the class that is challenge will come under fire even if the challenge is not the problem. Challenge is what makes a class rewarding and a class being rewarding is what makes it fun. Another thing that gets a lot of complaints is if one class has different challenges/limitations to other classes. However, as long as the differences are within reason from a balance perspective, these differences are a good thing, not bad, as these are what make a class feel unique and make the choice of what class to play more interesting.

The point isn't that people shouldn't be allowed to make feedback, its that they should think about what they are really asking for. When you ask for a class change that involves making it easier to play, do you actually want it to be easier to play, or just want it to do more dps? A lot of people complained about Dragon Sight, but was it really too difficult for people? Is this a change they really wanted to see and is it something they will enjoy? I don't think so.

Dragon Sight
16/06/17 - 18/07/17
One of the best designed new abilities drowned in a sea of Dragoon tears before it ever got to be used in real raid content.

This is an odd hill to die on. Dragon Sight and any uniqueness, in and of itself, is not a defense of it. Moreover, I think DRG has far more than it's fair share of 'challenges' and always has.

Dragon sight was terrible design but since you brought up the topic, the real problem is that a lot of people complained about it saying that the rest of the kit was alright, and so the team focused their efforts on it. The devs didn't even acknowledge the need of some power boosts, so I think DRG is a dead job right now, because with MCH being buffed it will fall even behind it to the spot of the lowest damage output dps.

What are you on about? The ability goes contrary to what they were going for when reworking classes. Making something a hassle for the sake of being 'niche or complex' is stupid, because why simplify the entire combat system in that case? It is also a nightmare to use where there were no other melee, because you would either have to use it on a tank (prone to breaking on bigger bosses or if the tank is a fuckhead) or get a ranged dps to stick close to you. It is also way too thicc. It looks like a dangerous boss mechanic and is too much visual noise anyway. Remember when they nerfed darkside aura? Granted, that was persistently up but it was the same issue.

I personally had no issue with dragon sight except for not having another melee to share it with but I'm not gonna complain that it is easier to use. It contributes very little damage anyway, I'd rather they just return BfB to its former glory and make that something that adds 20% to whoever you have tethered or something. Or at least make it 15% while making it 80 seconds. My issue is that they nerfed BfB (yes they did increase potencies but they also nerfed disembowel soooo) and used that almost as an excuse to give us something we pretty much already had and tacking on 'support' onto it.

Why is Dragon sight in the spot light ? This is SOOOOOOO not the core issue with goon. Fak i'll take any improvement on dragon sight, but the hell is that the only thing wrong.....

people ran away from me most of the time i had it. it was annoying

Effected how we play in a simple and fun way? Are we sure on that?
And yes, if you have to be tethered the range is a big detriment there, sure it works easier if there are melee. Ranged? Highly unlikely. The other option is the tank and even then as is, still is a pain.

And yes, it indeed was the same as every other self buff, it doesn't effect how you do your rotation, you'll still be swinging around for positionals, using jumps, etc.
Continuing combo over following people around or would you stop what you're doing and follow your partner? Losing the buff is undesirable (rotation upkeep) as is just chasing your partner down (not rotation upkeep).

So, yeah, I think any buff to this skill is needed as this was not the ability we we're looking for, it came out of nowhere and just feels strange to use.
Would much preferred another jump than this to be honest. But I guess we're no longer the job with weaving in oGCD abilities/skills. And DS/MD just feel slow and clunky.

And here we have the thread where one idiot defends a bad skill and now is pissy it's getting fixed. Thank god people like you aren't in charge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RalLamora

It didn't involve a dps loss that would take away from your enjoyment by making you feel like you were sacrificing something, as you want to be in melee anyway.

---

I don't...what...wait...bwuh?

Outside of party content it turns the class into Chicken Knight, outright demanding you take a chocobo everywhere otherwise 10% of your damage is locked away forever.

Inside of party content the skill is mouthbreathingly stupid to use, outright requiring macros that flail around for a friendly target. In a party with 3 ranged dps? Go go 5% super tank go!

There's a lot more wrong with the class as it stands that the live letter didn't even touch on, but go away with your objectively terrible opinion.

There was no thought involved with Dragon Sight. I often wound up putting it on the tank because I couldn't trust the other DPS to stay closer. I even put it on a healer once because they ran into range and stayed there. Having a buff be unique for the sake of uniqueness is asinine design. I would rather it be something I click and forget as I can more easily prioritize my focus on the boss not some silly tether.

For starters, I don't like having to subtarget another player (taking my target off the mob) or being forced to make a subtarget macro just to use a skill. I never want my target off the boss, and I definitely shouldn't have to use a macro for a basic ability to function.

Dragon Sight puts the control of my DPS output entirely in the hands of the person I put it on. It is a terrible skill.

My DRG is at 60 so take this with a grain of salt but....

It seems to me that the better solution would have been to have DS just grant 10% damage to the DRG and 5% more damage to the nearest friendly target. Solo, this would mean that you could have it up without a chocobo. In parties, it would mean whoever was closest in range got buffed. If nothing else, it would be funny watching melee fall all over themselves trying catch your Eye.

It's bit of a pain to dodge AOE's when you need to stand right next to whomever you cast the DS.

Otherwise bye bye boost.

I agree about range.I've got cleave by bosss a lot because I have to tether to the tank and no matter how careful I am,still got cleaved right at the face.
Some tanks know this skill and help me with range but still the range should be doubled at very least.

I like Dragon Sight, however it's not a very fun ability to use.
For one, you're forced to target another player - thus de-targeting your enemy, which can potentially lead to targeting the wrong enemy after you've activated the buff.
Two, if you're fighting anything that's considered "large", you have to sacrifice positional buffs to keep yourself tethered depending on who it is you used your Sight on.
Three, when it comes to typical 4 man party dungeons, you may end up using the buff on the tank instead of your fellow dps if said dps is ranged. They don't always stay close by, since they'll have to sacrifice their range to get the buff.

It's an interesting and unique ability, but it needs some QoL improvements.

Skil is trash and defending it is gross. It's way worse than using goad due to the short range, and the need for proximity

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RalLamora

They complained because drg dps was overall too low so they exaggerated the difficulty or awkwardness of other things, like dragon sight, to try to get their point across that dragoons need buffing.

Now Dragon Sight will (effectively) be like every other boring dps buff skill. Press one button, get a buff. No thought or gameplay required. I don't think anyone will actually enjoy the class more as a result of this change, but plenty of people will enjoy the class less and, even if its only by a little bit, it is still sad to see changes that go in the wrong direction.

---

If Dragon Sight had actually been anything more than a necessary damage buff with range restrictions, I'd mourn its quirk of gameplay. But it wasn't. It felt alright in 4-mans (stutter-step) chasing the DRG around despite being a mage, but when actual mechanics become involved, with nothing more offered... not so much. Had it increased movement speed towards the partner, or allowed you to blink to the partner's location, and rapidly decreased (but didn't outright remove) effect with range, then there'd be something more. But there wasn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If Dragon Sight had actually been anything more than a necessary damage buff with range restrictions, I'd mourn its quirk of gameplay. But it wasn't. It felt alright in 4-mans (stutter-step) chasing the DRG around despite being a mage, but when actual mechanics become involved, with nothing more offered... not so much. Had it increased movement speed towards the partner, or allowed you to blink to the partner's location, and rapidly decreased (but didn't outright remove) effect with range, then there'd be something more. But there wasn't.

---

Exactly this. It was not unique aside from a ridiculous range requirement.
It grants a damage buff to self and your partner (which is just an added bonus really, you're not using it for your partner's sake)

I would still rather them just replace the skill and give us our old Blood for Blood back.
This is the second time we basically get the "same thing". (WT & FaC, B4B being split with DS)

Honestly I understand where ur coming from.
The Dragon Sight range was the last of my worries. It was a little annoying to activate. But I somehow enjoyed trying to stay close enough. It was an extra challenge. Imo they shoulda just buffed the power of the skill to 15% to the DRG and 10 to the ally.

I do have to argue about it being not confusing though. I had people running away from me when they saw the tether because they thought it was a mechanic of the fight... lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralen

I don't...what...wait...bwuh?

Outside of party content it turns the class into Chicken Knight, outright demanding you take a chocobo everywhere otherwise 10% of your damage is locked away forever.

---

inb4 we get a wyvern pet in the next expansion which we can use Dragon's Sight on. *cough*

I have to say I agree with the comments about community feedback. I have not played DRG at 70 to experience Dragon Sight, but overall I notice that people think of jobs in terms of buffs and nerfs, and their power relative to other jobs, rather than how the job actually plays. If you were to ask the community what new actions they would like to see on a job, I suspect that most would ask for free oGCD damage abilities, damage buff actions, or raid DPS buff actions. Things which are intended to offer challenge or reward skill are instead seen as nuisances; barriers that get in the way of the true goal: getting loot. But a game designed like that isn't fun. At least, not for anyone with an ounce of self-respect.

As for Dragon Sight, I can't say for sure one way or the other. Using it is part of the challenge, but arguments that it's too awkward to use, or too punished by factors outside the DRG's control (such as having a melee dps in the party), are also convincing. If the benefit of Dragon Sight was supportive utility, rather than damage, its restrictions would perhaps be easier to swallow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IchiExorz

I do have to argue about it being not confusing though. I had people running away from me when they saw the tether because they thought it was a mechanic of the fight... lol

---

Lol well yeah, it's a red tether between two players, how many times have we seen that mechanic? Red was a poor color choice, blue usually means safe. I expect the 6 yalms was to prevent casters and ranged from getting the benefit. Even though this is the only buff in the game that restricts who can be buffed with an "approved" list, I'm glad the extra range will make it less punishing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PangTong

snip

---

I understand where you are coming from, but that isn't the issue with DRG atm. Savage is coming out tuesday and people who have been gearing DRG with weekly lockout stuff (only omega NM for now, tome gear come tuesday) will pretty much be locked into using DRG, which is in a terrible place at the moment. I like DRGs play style, contrary to popular opinion but I like it because the management of eyes is fairly dynamic since you get eyes pretty much every 30 seconds which means in any given scenario when it is due, you have to calculate what to do but I could also play SAM, think slightly less and also get punished less for fucking up and do much more damage. Not only is contributing to the party gratifying, it is also important. Unfortunately in the end, the latter is more important for top level content but DRG doesn't even feel gratifying anyway.